Small Craft firmpoint or fixed mount

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

Looking through the ship designs included in MgT HG 2e small craft and the Weapons and Screens chapter I am unsure if a firmpoint is a separate component or actually a fixed mount.

From MgT HG 2e p. 23

"Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret."

From the above my understanding is the firmpoint is a fixed mount. The Mount table on p. 24 shows that a fixed mount has a cost of Cr100,000.

The light fighter on p. 94 has a firmpoint with an attached pulse laser while the ship's boat on p. 98 has an empty fixed mount.

If a firmpoint is really the same thing as a hardpoint then the light fighter should have the pulse laser on a fixed mount, while the ship's boat should have any empty firmpoint.

Can some one please provide a simple and easy to follow reply that even I can understand.

 

[Condottiere]

A Firmpoint ... can be upgraded ...

Therefore, two firmpoints can be upgraded.

Or three.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottierre

A Firmpoint ... can be upgraded ...

Therefore, two firmpoints can be upgraded.

Or three.

Here is the complete text about Small Craft firmpoints from MgT HG 2e PDF p. 23

"Small Craft
Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret.

A ship of less than 35 tons has one Firmpoint. A ship of 35-70 tons has two Firmpoints, and a ship of 70-99 tons has three Firmpoints. Beyond this size, ships use Hardpoints.

A weapon mounted upon a Firmpoint has the following
changes applied to it.
• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to
Adjacent range.
• Weapons of greater range are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range
increased beyond Close by any means.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by
25% (rounding up).
• Barbettes consume two Firmpoints."

Hardpoints need to be designated during construction and do not have space or cost requirements so that weapons can be installed on hulls >= 100 d-tons using fixed mounts, single turrets, double turrets, triple turrets, quad turrets, barbettes, 50/100/500 d-ton bays, and spinal mounts.

The first sentence of the small craft text indicates that firmpoints are the same as hardpoints for hulls >= 100 d-tons and that they are installed free of space and cost requirements.

The first part of the second sentence indicates that firmpoints are fixed mounts which per the table on p. 24 has a cost requirement of Cr100,000.

The last portion the the sentence indicates that firmpoints/fixed mounts can be upgrades to a single weapon turret system and from section for small craft weapons changes that two firmpoints/fixed mounts can hold a barbette.

My understanding is that a small craft > 70 and <= 99 d-tons can have up to three firmpoints designated as installed, a small craft between 35 and 70 d-tons can have up to two firmpoints designated as installed, and a small craft between 10 and < 35 d-tons can designate one firmpoint as installed.

The ship record sheet for a light fighter p. 94 has a fixed mount with a pulse laser as free of cost.

The record sheet for a ship's boat/slow boat p. 98, pinnace/slow pinnace p. 100, and modular cutter p. 102 have empty fixed mounts that cost Cr100,000.

The heavy fighter p. 102 has two firmpoints one with a beam laser with a cost of Cr600,000 and the other has a missile rack installed with a cost of Cr850,000.

Troops transports p. 104 also have two firmpoints one with a sandcaster Cr350,000 and a missile rack Cr850,0000.

Thank you for pushing me to looking more closely at the material which indicates that firmpoints are fixed mounts and have a cost of Cr100,000.

Being a lazy lout I will use fixed mount, single double, and barbette when small craft are armed, since only two of the small craft use the term firmpoint and requires only four pink and ink changes.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Not quite.

A Firmpoint is a type of Hardpoint. A Firmpoint is "smaller" or lighter than a full Hardpoint.

There are only so many weapons that can be attached to a ship, the limiting factors being the supply of energy, the stresses imposed upon the hull through the use of high-powered weaponry, and the surface area of a hull it is possible to cover with weapons.
Spacecraft therefore have a maximum number of Hardpoints to which weapons can be attached.
A ship has one Hardpoint for every full 100 tons of its hull.
Each weapon system uses a number of Hardpoints, depending on its size as shown on the Hardpoints table.

A Hardpoint or Firmpoint is the structurally reinforced part of the hull where weapon mounts such as turrets, fixed mounts, barbettes, and bays may be mounted.


So: A Turret (or Fixed Mount, Barbette, or Bay) is mounted to a Hardpoint (or Firmpoint). Weapons are then mounted to the Turret (or Fixed Mount). Hardpoints (or Firmpoints) cost nothing extra, they are part of the Hull.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Thank you for the reply.

Not quite.

A Firmpoint is a type of Hardpoint. A Firmpoint is "smaller" or lighter than a full Hardpoint.

There are only so many weapons that can be attached to a ship, the limiting factors being the supply of energy, the stresses imposed upon the hull through the use of high-powered weaponry, and the surface area of a hull it is possible to cover with weapons.
Spacecraft therefore have a maximum number of Hardpoints to which weapons can be attached.
A ship has one Hardpoint for every full 100 tons of its hull.
Each weapon system uses a number of Hardpoints, depending on its size as shown on the Hardpoints table.

A Hardpoint or Firmpoint is the structurally reinforced part of the hull where weapon mounts such as turrets, fixed mounts, barbettes, and bays may be mounted.

So: A Turret (or Fixed Mount, Barbette, or Bay) is mounted to a Hardpoint (or Firmpoint). Weapons are then mounted to the Turret (or Fixed Mount). Hardpoints (or Firmpoints) cost nothing extra, they are part of the Hull.

I agree that in the real universe that a hardpoint and a firmpoint are both used as a way to attach weapons to a ship's hull, an aircraft's airframe, or vehicle's chassis using various mounts. Unfortunately, the rules on MgT HG 2e p. 23 makes a clear distinction between a hardpoint and firmpoint.

The designation of hardpoint is for a ship >= 100 d-tons which "....has one Hardpoint for every full 100 tons of its hull." appears to indicate they are automatically included. In the earlier rule sets hardpoints have to be designated during construction before weapons can be mounted in turrets/barbette, bays, and spinal mounts. MgT and the earlier rule sets agree hardpoints are installed at no cost.

Ships < 100 d-tons, designated small craft, have firmpoints instead of hardpoints. A firmpoint on small craft, ships < 100 d-tons, is a fixed mount, but can be upgraded to a single turret or a barbette. Barbettes consume two firmpoints. IIRC the earlier rule sets allow up three weapons or the equivalent of a triple turret on small craft without any mention of hardpoints. CT LBB 5 does mention that the weapons "are probably rigidly mounted but for Combat purposes they are in a turret."

Small Craft have the following number of firmpoints which are fixed mounts:
Hulls >= 10 and < 35 d-tons have 1
Hulls >= 35 and <= 70 d-tons have 2
Hulls > 70 and <= 99 d-tons have 3

Reviewing the small craft ship record sheets empty fixed mounts have a cost of Cr100,000 or MCr0.1
There are no small craft that have empty firmpoints, however the 50 d-ton heavy fighter and 50 d-ton troop transport each have two firmpoints. Both have a firmpoint with a missile rack installed at a cost of MCr0.85 or Cr850,000. A missile rack costs MCr0.75 or Cr750,000.

Total cost of MCr0.85 - missile rack cost of MCr0.75 = firmpoint cost of MCr0.1.

If a firmpoint is a smaller/lighter hardpoint then the cost of the missile rack installed on the heavy fighter and troop transport should be MCr0.75 not MCr0.85.

The text clearly states that a firmpoint is a fixed mount and reviewing the weapons section of the small craft ship record sheets a firmpoint is not a hardpoint.

A firmpoint is a fixed mount on small craft on which at least one weapon is installed on, following the fixed mount text on p. 24 the maximum is three weapons or one turret that can mount a single weapon. Barbettes can be installed on small and require two firmpoints/fixed mounts.

Looks like I have another subject/topic the has resulted in another disagreement.

On a vaguely related note: In CT LBB 2, TNE FF&S, and T4 FF&S turrets can be purchased separately from the weapons. CT LBB 5 and MT the turret comes with the weapon and cannot be purchased separately. T4 Quick Ship Design System, T4 Standard Ship Design System, and Traveller 20 appear to follow CT LBB 5/MT in that turrets come with the weapons. Until I can locate my GURPS Traveller books my best recollection is that the turrets do not have a separate MCr from the weapons.

 

[Anonymous]

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but the one time it came up we house-ruled everything as a turret, unless it was on a fast atmospheric craft where streamlining was required. If you've got a grav-powered air/raft that's limited to subsonic speed, or you're flying in space with a magic engine, just TurretAllTheThings. Today, a remote controlled, stabilised mount for an auto-cannon is under 1,000 kg.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

... we house-ruled everything as a turret, unless it was on a fast atmospheric craft ...

Turrets have advantages and disadvantages. They take 1 dT and a separate gunner each.

 

[Anonymous]

... we house-ruled everything as a turret, unless it was on a fast atmospheric craft ...

Turrets have advantages and disadvantages. They take 1 dT and a separate gunner each.

If you push the "lock forward" button on the turret you don't need a separate gunner because it's identical to a fixed mount.

But it's science fiction; if you don't have friendlies in the area, a 21st century computer can automatically target anything that moves in air and sea (just ground clutter confuses it) so we only require a gunner if you want to do something that requires intelligence. If space pirates jump on your pinnace as it make a trip to the gas giant and back, likely the pirate is the only other ship on the grid and even my iPhone could work out where to point the gun. Edit: Or more correctly, who to point it at: it's obviously not programmed for fancy sci-fi ballistic calculations ... some other computer is obviously doing that)

We kind of ignored the space requirement, because (1) actual turret mounts aren't that large; http://imgur.com/a/4JRP5 and (2) just put the gunner in a spare bridge workstation (edit: let the co-pilot run it) and run a wire to the gun. These days we still have local control possible but in space combat you ain't going to hit jack over open sights with your eye at 40,000 km.

I admit the space requirement for a gunner might be hand-waving too much with a small design; but if you're designing it for combat, you might want a gunner or commander as well, anyway.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

We kind of ignored the space requirement, because (1) actual turret mounts aren't that large;

I don't think turret weapons are that small. A turret is 1 dT ≈ 14 m³, that would make it roughly as large as an MBT turret:

With a triple mount the weapons would probably be smaller than a 120 mm gun, but would still mass a tonne or two, something like a 105 mm tank gun from the 60s.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Moppy,

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but the one time it came up we house-ruled everything as a turret, unless it was on a fast atmospheric craft where streamlining was required. If you've got a grav-powered air/raft that's limited to subsonic speed, or you're flying in space with a magic engine, just TurretAllTheThings. Today, a remote controlled, stabilised mount for an auto-cannon is under 1,000 kg.

Thank you Moppy for the suggestion and the responses made between AnotherDilbert and myself your comment is an answer, but not one related to my question about the small craft firmpoint or fixed mount or AnotherDilbert's reference to hardpoints

In my view everything being a turret is not a house rule since CT LBB 2 the requirements are Fire Control 1 d-ton, hardpoints Cr100,000, Fire Control 1 d-ton, Single Turret Cr200,000, Double Turret Cr500,000, Triple Turret Cr1,000,000, Pulse Laser Cr500,000, Beam Laser Cr1,000,000, Missile Rack Cr750,000, and Sandcaster Cr250,000. Small craft can have 1 d-ton of weapons or one turret.

The only mention of CT fixed mounts I've stumbled on is in CT Alien Module 6 Solomani Ship Designs pp. 42-43. The CT fixed mount allows the attachment of two weapons per hardpoint, does not require fire control tonnage, or a turret. A gunner has a station on the bridge and is subject to a DM-2 in space combat. The number of fixed mounts is limited to the ship's computer model number. I like MgT HG 2e's fixed mount details a lot better.

As AnotherDilbert points out turrets have advantages and disadvantages over fixed mount weapons. The biggest advantage in my opinion is a turret can point the weapon at the target while I'm piloting in a different direction. The disadvantages are the turret's requirement d-ton, costs and the power requirement. On MgT small craft the up-side is you can depending on the craft's d-ton size have three turrets, at least if I'm interpreting the text correctly.

... we house-ruled everything as a turret, unless it was on a fast atmospheric craft ...

Turrets have advantages and disadvantages. They take 1 dT and a separate gunner each.

If you push the "lock forward" button on the turret you don't need a separate gunner because it's identical to a fixed mount.

But it's science fiction; if you don't have friendlies in the area, a 21st century computer can automatically target anything that moves in air and sea (just ground clutter confuses it) so we only require a gunner if you want to do something that requires intelligence. If space pirates jump on your pinnace as it make a trip to the gas giant and back, likely the pirate is the only other ship on the grid and even my iPhone could work out where to point the gun. Edit: Or more correctly, who to point it at: it's obviously not programmed for fancy sci-fi ballistic calculations ... some other computer is obviously doing that)

We kind of ignored the space requirement, because (1) actual turret mounts aren't that large; http://imgur.com/a/4JRP5 and (2) just put the gunner in a spare bridge workstation (edit: let the co-pilot run it) and run a wire to the gun. These days we still have local control possible but in space combat you ain't going to hit jack over open sights with your eye at 40,000 km.

I admit the space requirement for a gunner might be hand-waving too much with a small design; but if you're designing it for combat, you might want a gunner or commander as well, anyway.

No, locking the turret to fire forward is not identical to a fixed mount. A fixed mount has no space requirement in d-tons or power requirement and is cheaper in Cr. Yes, MgT has software used for combat which gives the gunner a better chance of hitting the target.

In most if not all the earlier rule sets characters can fill more than one position provided they have the appropriate skill. A pilot with gunner skill can operate installed weapons for example. Ship's Troops can also be assigned as gunners for ship's weapons. This eliminates a dedicated gunner.

Dropping the turret d-tons is in my opinion a house rule since I am fairly sure all Traveller rule sets requires them to take up space on all hull sizes when installed.

T4 Book D Naval Architect's Manual p. 17" "Turret guns actually place a gunner outside the ship in a glasteel bubble. The bubble permits visual targeting should the computer targeting system go down and the operator forced to switch control to manual."

TNE Core Rule Book p. 349 has an illustration of a laser socket. The gunner's station appears to be a compartment built as part of the socket/turret.

I think that the MT Starship Operator's Manual, Volume 1 has an illustration of turrets, unfortunately I can not remember where I filed the book.

Getting back to the subject of small craft firmpoint or fixed mount I have another response to AnotherDilbert's post starting "Not quite. A Firmpoint is a type of Hardpoint. A Firmpoint is "smaller" or lighter than a full Hardpoint." that I will compose as a new post.

 

[Anonymous]

We kind of ignored the space requirement, because (1) actual turret mounts aren't that large;

I don't think turret weapons are that small. A turret is 1 dT ≈ 14 m³, that would make it roughly as large as an MBT turret.
With a triple mount the weapons would probably be smaller than a 120 mm gun, but would still mass a tonne or two, something like a 105 mm tank gun from the 60s.

That turret in your photo also contains space for the crew, and not just the weapon. (BTW is that a Sheridan? It's not an MBT in that case, but who cares?)

If you only have the weapon mount, it's -considerably- smaller. I believe this is a 105?

http://imgur.com/a/5avLB

Turrets are only huge if you put crew in them. If the crew are inside the hull and the gun is fired remotely, they're really tiny.

That's the conclusion we came to, and the house rule we used to make everything a turret (unless it was on a plane, where it messed up the streamlining). So basically, yea, we made everything a turret and the "gunner in bubble" concept was rejected except for light ground vehicles.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

(BTW is that a Sheridan?)

Strv 122 (=Leopard 2)

Turrets are only huge if you put crew in them. If the crew are inside the hull and the gun is fired remotely, they're really tiny.

If your standard turret is without crew-station, that only makes the default turret weapon bigger... A 1 dT ≈ 14 m³ turret filled with weapons would mean that each weapon is perhaps 4 m³ or 30 tonnes of steel.

I do not think this: http://imgur.com/a/5avLB would survive a reentry or a fuel skimming run? Is that even a turret?

Even a crew-less turret can take considerable space:

That's the conclusion we came to, and the house rule we used to make everything a turret

Your game, your rules, of course.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Your reply to Moppy beat mine, but I got lucky and did not lose the Post A Reply window. This time the message indicated that someone had made a reply since the last time I checked the forum.

In the reply posted Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:48 am the quoted material from MgT HG 2e p. 24 Number of Weapons was

There are only so many weapons that can be attached to a ship, the limiting factors being the supply of energy, the stresses imposed upon the hull through the use of high-powered weaponry, and the surface area of a hull it is possible to cover with weapons.
Spacecraft therefore have a maximum number of Hardpoints to which weapons can be attached.
A ship has one Hardpoint for every full 100 tons of its hull.
Each weapon system uses a number of Hardpoints, depending on its size as shown on the Hardpoints table.

I believe the two entire I underlined quoted are the important ones relating to my response to Condottiere on Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:06 am and your comment in return

On MgT HG 2e PDF pp. 4-5 there is a section titled Definitions. Reviewing the pages there is no standalone entry for "spacecraft", however the entries for "Ship" and Small Craft use spacecraft:

The "Spacecraft therefore have a maximum number of Hardpoints to which weapons can be attached." does suggest that small craft have hardpoints.

This entry "A ship has one Hardpoint for every full 100 tons of its hull." indicates that hulls >= 100 d-tons have hard points.

Small Craft are hulls are >= 10 and < 100 d-tons which I feel does not meet the criteria for a hardpoint.

The entry following "Number of Weapons" on MgT 2e p. 24 is titled Small Craft with the following text.

"Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret. Barbette consumes two Firmpoints."

I agree that "Hardpoint or Firmpoint is the structurally reinforced part of the hull where weapons are installed mounts such as turrets, fixed mounts, barbettes, bays or spinal mounts as indicated in the material quoted from Number of Weapons and Small Craft" is a good general description.

I also agree that hardpoints structurally reinforces specific points on hulls >= 100 d-tons so that weapons mounted and are installed in fixed mounts, turrets, bays, or spinal mounts. Hardpoints have no space in d-tons, power, or cost requirements. Hulls >= 100 d-tons have one hardpoint each full 100 d-tons of hull.

As an example a 350 d-ton has three hardpoints or a 300 d-ton hull with two 50 d-ton drop tanks has three hardpoints. A 400 d-ton hull has four hardpoints.

Firmpoints are fixed mounts, per MgT HG 2e PDF p. 24, that structurally reinforces up to three points on hulls >= 10 and < 100 d-tons allowing weapons to be installed on the firmpoint/fixed mounts, or replaced by up to three single turrets, or a single barbettes in place of two firmpoints/fixed mounts. The number of firmpoints available is determined by the small crafts d-ton size. Small craft hulls >= 10 and < 35 d-tons have one firmpoint/fixed mount, hulls between 35 and 70 d-tons have two firmpoints/fixed mounts, and hulls > 70 and < 100 d-tons have three firmpoints/fixed mounts. Review of the ship record sheets for the 50 d-ton heavy fighter, MgT HG 2e p. 102, and 50 d-ton troop transport, p. 104, indicate that firmpoints have a cost of Cr100,000 which is the cost of a fixed mount and supports the text on MgT HG 2e p. 24.

Between MgT HG 2e PDF pp. 94-166 are thirteen small craft record sheets. One small craft record sheet does not have a Weapons section. Two small craft have no entries in the Weapons section, one of the small craft entry is Weapons "Fixed mount (Beam Lasers), seven of the small craft entries are Weapons "fixed mount (empty), and two small craft entries are "Firmpoint (Beam Laser), Firmpoint (Missile Rack)" and "Firmpoint (Sandcaster), Firmpoint (Missile Rack)".

The entry of "Fixed mount (Pulse Laser)" has no cost, which is incorrect since a Pulse Laser has a cost of Cr1,000,000 not to mention that a fixed mount has a cost of Cr100,000.

The seven "Fixed Mount (Empty)" all have a cost of Cr100,000.

The two small craft with firmpoint entries after subtracting the cost of the weapons have individual costs of Cr100,000.

I have looked for errata on the forum and checked that my PDF copy matched the latest copy date available on DriveThruRPG. I did not find errata, which could mean I did not use the right search criteria, and my date matches with the one on DriveThruRPG.


Based on the evidence from my PDF copy of MgT HG 2e and not finding any errata my conclusion is that small craft firmpoints are fixed mounts and cost Cr100,000.

Technically the nine small craft record sheets with "Fixed Mounts" should be "Firmpoints", but being a lazy lout it is easier to change the four firmpoint entries to fixed mounts.

Another reply did not go through and this time I have two messages: The first is in response to my selecting Preview which had the message of "At least one new post has been made to this topic. You may wish to review your post in light of this."

The second message in bold red type of "The submitted form was invalid. Try submitting again." appears in the Post a reply window.

 

[snrdg121408]

Howdy AnotherDilbert and Moppy,

CT LBB 5 HG allows a single gunner to operate ten turrets with the same weapon systems installed. I have not stumbled on a similar rule in MgT so this could be considered a home grown rule. In other rule sets the turrets can be controlled from a central location and has the turret's gunner station as a back-up.

From a discussion in a different on turrets an empty 1 d-ton turret contains everything but the weapon system. In MgT HG 2e a 1 d-ton can mount four weapons besides the components already installed in the turret.

I can believe that four lasers will fit into the available space in a 1 d-ton turret that includes all the non-weapon system components.

I am not sure that four missile racks with 12 missiles per rack and the associated missile loading components or the four sandcasters with 20 canisters plus the loading components for each sandcaster launcher will fit since 12 missiles and 20 canisters each take up 1 d-ton of space.

CT allowed three missiles or canisters per rack or sandcaster which gave a triple turret the ability to fire for nine combat turns if all the weapons are the same type. Mixing them with other weapons cut down the missiles or canisters carried in the turret.

The earlier Traveller rule sets fusion guns and plasma guns required a 2 d-ton turret and could install two weapons. Particle Accelerators/Beams at TL 14 had one weapon in a 5 d-ton barbette and at TL 15 a single weapon fit in a 3 d-ton turret.

I do like the idea of remote turrets, however when the wiring gets shredded the turret is out of action until repairs are made. Having away to operate the turret will the wiring is being fixed like a gunner station at the turret is a good back-up in my opinion.

Thank you Moppy and AnotherDilbert for the comments.

 

[Anonymous]

If your standard turret is without crew-station, that only makes the default turret weapon bigger... A 1 dT ≈ 14 m³ turret filled with weapons would mean that each weapon is perhaps 4 m³ or 30 tonnes of steel. I do not think this: http://imgur.com/a/5avLB would survive a reentry or a fuel skimming run? Is that even a turret?

The premise is we felt the standard turret overhead in the rulebook was too high.

I do not see why you can't call that thing in the photo a turret. It's a rotating, elevating gun mount. You can put an armored box around it if you need to. But that doesn't change the internal volume, and isn't traveller armor supposed to be only a few centimeters? Or am I thinking of some earlier version?

Even a crew-less turret can take considerable space:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...2015Moscow-01.jpg/640px-9may2015Moscow-01.jpg

If that's an Armata, it does look large from that angle, but it's pretty thin and narrow and I think the whole back is just a flat bit for storing ammo? You're looking at the armor as well though. Isn't the armor about 60cm thick on the front of a tank?

 

[Condottiere]

1. A hardpoint (more formally known as a station or weapon station) is a location on an airframe designed to carry an external or internal load. This includes a station on the wing or fuselage of a civilian aircraft or military aircraft where external jet engine, ordnance, countermeasures, gun pods, targeting pods or drop tanks can be mounted.

2. It's strengthening of the deck, or in our case hull, to bear the load or stress of firing heavy naval weapons.

3. Hardpoints should be rated as to load they can bear; you don't fire an eight inch gun from a destroyer, even if you can install it.

4. Weapon systems are mostly internal, otherwise turrets can't pop up.

5. Firmpoints would be rated for stresses below that for hardpoints.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The premise is we felt the standard turret overhead in the rulebook was too high.

Corresponding to the assumption that weapons are fairly small? I have always assumed the weapons are large enough to require the 1 dT turret.

I do not see why you can't call that thing in the photo a turret. It's a rotating, elevating gun mount. You can put an armored box around it if you need to.

I believe the armoured housing IS the turret, or is that archaic?

In the 1890s, armoured hoods (also known as "gun houses") were added to barbettes; these rotated with the platform (hence the term "hooded barbette"). By the early 20th Century, these hoods were known as turrets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_turret

But that doesn't change the internal volume, and isn't traveller armor supposed to be only a few centimeters? Or am I thinking of some earlier version?

Undefined in MgT. In CT & MT Armour 0 was equivalent 33 cm hardened steel, that became a few cm with high tech armour.

 

[snrdg121408]

Howdy Condottiere,

Thank you once again for your reply to the subject of small craft firmpoint or fixed mount.

1. A hardpoint (more formally known as a station or weapon station) is a location on an airframe designed to carry an external or internal load. This includes a station on the wing or fuselage of a civilian aircraft or military aircraft where external jet engine, ordnance, countermeasures, gun pods, targeting pods or drop tanks can be mounted.

In MgT HG 2e a hardpoint, p. 23, is how weapons are attached to spacecraft hulls with a volume >= 100 d-tons. Spacecraft with hulls >= 100 d-tons are defined as ship according to p. 4.

Small craft, p. 23, < 100 d-tons have firmpoints instead of hardpoints.

2. It's strengthening of the deck, or in our case hull, to bear the load or stress of firing heavy naval weapons.

MgT HG 2e does not in my opinion indicate that a ship's hardpoint or small craft firmpoint strengthens the hull. Hardpoints and firmpoints are placeholders that allow weapons to be installed. In earlier Traveller rule sets hardpoints, there are no firmpoints that I recall but I could be wrong, have to be designated during construction from of space requirements and at no cost. I seem to recall that one or more Traveller rule sets did allow hulls to retrofit hardpoints but a Cr cost was imposed.

I am not sure if MgT HG 2e automatically install hardpoints or they have to be designated.

Review of the small craft record sheets indicates that firmpoints/fixed mounts must be designated during construction and they cost Cr100,000.

3. Hardpoints should be rated as to load they can bear; you don't fire an eight inch gun from a destroyer, even if you can install it.

I think that MgT HG 2e sort of rates the load a hardpoint can handle. The Hardpoints table on MgT HG 2e p. 23 shows that one hardpoint can handle weapon system mounts < 500 d-tons. Five hardpoints can handle mounts from 500 d-tons to about 2,800 d-tons.

My guess is that the destroyer probably would be able to fire the 8 inch gun once before sinking itself.

4. Weapon systems are mostly internal, otherwise turrets can't pop up.

MgT HG 2e clearly allows fixed mounted weapons to pop-up. I seem to recall but I cannot find the subject thread that the Mathew Sprange gave the nod that barbettes and bays could pop-up too.

5. Firmpoints would be rated for stresses below that for hardpoints.

Small craft can mount 1 d-ton per firmpoint/fixed mount. A 5 d-ton weapon system requires two firmpoints/fixed mounts.

Personally, I would have used the term hardpoint for all hulls.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

MgT HG 2e clearly allows fixed mounted weapons to pop-up. I seem to recall but I cannot find the subject thread that the Mathew Sprange gave the nod that barbettes and bays could pop-up too.

Best I could find is:

Hmm. Now this begs the question can barbettes use the popup option of turrets, assuming there's enough tonnage available to allow such a configuration?

In official 3rd Imperium material, no. But for your own stuff, go right ahead if you want to.

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=906931#p906931

 

[snrdg121408]

Afternoon PDT AnotherDilbert,

MgT HG 2e clearly allows fixed mounted weapons to pop-up. I seem to recall but I cannot find the subject thread that the Mathew Sprange gave the nod that barbettes and bays could pop-up too.

Best I could find is:

Hmm. Now this begs the question can barbettes use the popup option of turrets, assuming there's enough tonnage available to allow such a configuration?

In official 3rd Imperium material, no. But for your own stuff, go right ahead if you want to.

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=906931#p906931

Thank you for finding the reference and my nod is only good outside the MgT Universe. Now if only someone would come up with the mobile turrets found in CT Supplement 7 on the Express Boat Tender.