Skinnie and Anti Air
- Thread starter Sharkman
- Start date
Voracioustigger
Mongoose
sharkman said:
Well, seeing as how I posted pretty much the same criticism a week ago, I agree of course.
3 of the main 6 Skinnie armies have NO AA weapons that aren"t emplacement assets (which cost 190pts each by the way and will take at least 3 rounds of shooting to take out a slingshot).
1 Skinnie army can only take 1 unit with AA weapons
1 Skinnie army can only take 2 units with AA weapons
Only the Skinnie Lord army (a PL3 force) can take more than 2 units with AA weapons.
Furthermore, they do not have any truly hard hitting AA. They have dual lasers 2D10, Light rocket launchers 6D6 (what can that possibly hurt?), and the heavy laser D10+3 (but requires a ready action)
All of those are pack weapons too!
So ya, Skinnies are really crippled against air units. It does not mean they cannot win, but it makes the game really boring when the enemy has some units that are completely untouchable.
sorry, accidental post Voracioustigger
Mongoose
Quark said:
Ummm....
1) Plasma bug
2) Hoppers
3) Ripplers/Acid Ripplers/Kamikaze Ripplers
4) Control bugs taking over models with AA weapons
Plus, the bugs have much harder hitting AA weapons. You can't possibly compare ANY skinnie AA weapons to a Direct Plasma shot (6D10+3 Multihit P/1) or Kamikaze Ripplers (2D10+4 Multihit). Also, these weapons are available to most any bug army, but not many Skinnie armies can have much AA.
Conclusion, Skinnies have by FAR the least AA.
Was it decided that Brains can't kill a ship in flight? If not, there's another one.
I would be ok with the skinnies lacking air support if they were an over-powered list, but they really are a modest force, power-wise.
Maybe there are some real skinny aircraft in the works? Next year maybe?
I would be ok with the skinnies lacking air support if they were an over-powered list, but they really are a modest force, power-wise.
Maybe there are some real skinny aircraft in the works? Next year maybe?
Yeah, I was making a joke ( :lol: <= that's usually what this thing means), but while we're on the subject, Acid ripplers and normal ripplers are useless against ships, and Hoppers get torn up pretty bad against most ships. Also, as far as I know it WAS decided that Brains don't get to use their brainy powers on ships UNLESS they land in which case there are better things to kill them with, and are you serious about actually getting a d6-1 model all the way across the battlefield AND successfully assaulting something with an aa weapon? Good luck with that. It is true that the Plasma bug hits pretty hard against ships, but my whole point was that it would be nice not to HAVE to take it to defend against air assets. So as I said earlier the bugs pretty much have 2 AA units. Kamikaze ripplers, and the PLasma.
Also, nanite is abso;utely right. While the Venerables are quite powerfull, the other Skinnie lists aren't exactly what I would call powerhouses so yes, it would be cool to see them with some form of at least modest air support some time in the future.
Also, nanite is abso;utely right. While the Venerables are quite powerfull, the other Skinnie lists aren't exactly what I would call powerhouses so yes, it would be cool to see them with some form of at least modest air support some time in the future.
Dr. Rooster
Mongoose
Well, I have to vote yes. At least give them an AA weapon that can react... :roll:
Anyhoo, I haven't actually seen how well the AA weapons work against air assets. (Cause the MI players at my LGS are cool and don't overload on air assets just to kill him), but I don't think it's impossible to hit stuff out of the sky.
And think about it. The heavy laser is a stream weapon. If you direct fire at something going at Loiter/Cruise speed (the two most common speeds), you have 3D10 and you have to hit either 6's or 7's, which although may be tricky, if you have two heavy lasers, shouldn't be too hard.
The avove paragraph mentions the target of a flying model being based on the speed it's going at. Am I right in assuming these rules are accurate? (It says so in the Main Rulebook...)
And furthermore, you can't forget the Raider Heavy Speeders. Thosehave AA (In the form of heavy lasers)!
So has anybody actually seen a Venerable force go up against a MI fleet? :?:
Anyhoo, I haven't actually seen how well the AA weapons work against air assets. (Cause the MI players at my LGS are cool and don't overload on air assets just to kill him), but I don't think it's impossible to hit stuff out of the sky.
And think about it. The heavy laser is a stream weapon. If you direct fire at something going at Loiter/Cruise speed (the two most common speeds), you have 3D10 and you have to hit either 6's or 7's, which although may be tricky, if you have two heavy lasers, shouldn't be too hard.
The avove paragraph mentions the target of a flying model being based on the speed it's going at. Am I right in assuming these rules are accurate? (It says so in the Main Rulebook...)
And furthermore, you can't forget the Raider Heavy Speeders. Thosehave AA (In the form of heavy lasers)!
So has anybody actually seen a Venerable force go up against a MI fleet? :?:
Voracioustigger
Mongoose
Dr. Rooster said:
Gah! I withdraw about 7 of my posts...
Although there are still 1-2 Skinnie lists with no AA, the Heavy Raider (if upgraded) can indeed have a heavy laser.
As to Loiter/Cruise...
1) You ALWAYS take the HIGHER of the two target values, so a Burning TAC is targetted on an 8+, but a Loitering Slingshot is still hit on an 8+.
2) 3D10 doesn't have a great chance of taking out a Slingshot or a TAC in one round. In fact, it only has a chance at taking out a TAC in one shot. Probablity of that? 1 in 800. Not very good odds.
I used a venerable heavy (5 Ven Champs) General army against an Exosuit platoon with a Slingshot. I won pretty easily, but didn't get anywhere near taking down that tank in the sky.
Sgt. Brassones
Mongoose
Fleet rules the skies. Period. 'nuff said.
xenopsyllus
Mongoose
If every army could cheaply and reliably down any aircraft over the battlefield, what would be the point of taking any aircraft in the first place?
Can the Skinnies defend themselves from aerial attacks? Yes.
Do they have to work their skinny little butts off to do it? Yes.
The only Skinnie army that doesn't have access AA weapons* (Cabal) is a group of primitives who go around beating people over the head with sticks! Anyone else terribly surprised that they don't have access to AA weapons?
*not including Emplacements
Can the Skinnies defend themselves from aerial attacks? Yes.
Do they have to work their skinny little butts off to do it? Yes.
The only Skinnie army that doesn't have access AA weapons* (Cabal) is a group of primitives who go around beating people over the head with sticks! Anyone else terribly surprised that they don't have access to AA weapons?
*not including Emplacements
Dr. Rooster
Mongoose
Well said! Well said! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:xenopsyllus said:
Oh, and by the way, you said that the brutes are the only ones who can't take AA, but what about the Guard? How do they take AA? (Without emplacements of course! :roll: )
Voracioustigger
Mongoose
xenopsyllus said:
See, I don't like this excuse at all.
The Skinnies have no weapons to defend against 2/3 of the MI's Air weapons (Drop capsules and Missiles), and it takes them forever to take out anything else. This is not only because of the damage of the weapons, but also the short range of the only common weapon in the army that can do anything consistently (the dual laser). The Light rocket launcher really isn't a factor at all at only D6 damage.
I'm not saying that Skinnies CANNOT possibly defend themselves against fleet assets, but I am saying that some Skinnie lists need to almost cripple their army just to compete with those assets.
A "balanced" Skinnie army does fine against other Skinnie armies, most MI armies, AND bug armies. You shouldn't have to take 2 - 190pt emplacements or a couple of Speeders just to have AA capabilities.
No army should be required to take certain units just to be competitive against all armies. Every army should have at least a few options open to them, and I just don't think the Skinnies really have that presently.
xenopsyllus
Mongoose
Guard are a unit, not an army. If you're referring to the General, he has access to every single type of AA in the Skinnie army book!Dr. Rooster said:
Do you and the people you play with take a plasma bug in every Arachnid army? Rapiers and air superiority TACs in every MI list?Voracioustigger said:
Small infantry can hide quite well from air assets (sans missiles) on a board with a halfway decent amount of area terrain.
Even without cover, the Skinnies can use their "Hide" reaction during the Air Phase when a plane comes within 20" of them, giving them, at worst, a 5+ dodge save against any bombing runs.
Dr. Rooster
Mongoose
Yeah, I have to agree with Tigger on this one, that's a lame exuse. How would you feel if the MI couldn't defend themselves from ripplers raining needles down on them, picking em' off without you being able to do anything about it! :evil:xenopsyllus said:
I'm starting to get annoyed by how the MI players are so against the other armies being balanced just because the MI have a gun for every situation... :evil:
Voracioustigger
Mongoose
xenopsyllus said:
Actually, I won all 3 games of my first SST tournament with a PL1 bug list, so plasma bugs are by no means essential. 2 Squads of 3-4 Ripplers is cheaper and more effective vs air units.
Also, can you make a hide reaction vs air units? I thought the air rules merely say that if you are on alert status with an AA weapon, then you may shoot at air units within 20", not that you can react to them.
xenopsyllus
Mongoose
Oops, I was wrong. That's what I get for trying to reference rules without a rule book.Voracioustigger said:
