Skill Progression and over-importance of EDU

[Kaelic]

First, I want to say I really adore the new training system. This is precisely what was needed.

That being said, I worry about the over-reliance on EDU. I tried the new rules applied to an existing team today (this happened to come out just before our regular sessions) and it showed how disadvantaged the low EDU player was. The real problem is that at character gen, it means you will almost always dump the highest stat value on EDU knowing it will net you in the long run, since you cannot improve EDU through augments or cybernetics in any way.

As it is now, we have a guy with +3 EDU which means he can potentially dwarf every other Traveller on the team with enough weeks, despite his focus on scholarly and science during generation.

I'm not sure the best solution, perhaps tying the skill to a primary stat for progression rather than EDU. So an AGI focused gun guy with crap EDU can still get better with his AGI focused skills.

 

[alex_greene]

Athletics does not use EDU. Instead, it uses STR, DEX and END, whichever is appropriate for the particular skill being learned.

Otherwise, yes, EDU has now become one of the most powerful stats going if your characters want to grow and develop during play.

One-shot games, though - not so hot.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

What's wrong with someone being educated? Are you worried a player that is working the system will end up in a learning booth for weeks at a time learning skill levels? Is he on drugs so he won't age?

 

[Kaelic]

Athletics does not use EDU. Instead, it uses STR, DEX and END, whichever is appropriate for the particular skill being learned.

Yes I did read that, but I didn't think it was worth mentioning since it is irrelevant to the point.

Otherwise, yes, EDU has now become one of the most powerful stats going if your characters want to grow and develop during play.

Which is a rather inflexible design, and only punishes players unaware of this at stat allocation. This is a design that needs rethinking.

 

[-Daniel-]

EDU being important to learning makes sense if the skill is a scholarly skill. But I fail to see how some one with a high Edu will learn to fire a gun faster than someone who understands weapons already. Maybe allow other attributes or skills to aid in the rolls? Maybe like learning Gun Combat (Energy) would gain from my existing Gun Combat (Slug) somehow?

Keep EDU as the key, but allow logical links to learn additional skills?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

For fixing a broken gun, I've seen:
Roll EDU
Roll INT
Roll Gun Combat + DEX
Roll Gun Combat + INT
Roll Mechanic + EDU
Roll Mechanic + INT
...

I think some players will find a characteristic to use no matter what. I'd rather have players narrate what their characters are doing instead of explaining to me why they want to use a certain characteristic. After narration, it becomes obvious what they should roll for and how difficult it might be.

 

[-Daniel-]

For fixing a broken gun, I've seen:
Roll EDU
Roll INT
Roll Gun Combat + DEX
Roll Gun Combat + INT
Roll Mechanic + EDU
Roll Mechanic + INT

Sorry, I lost you. How does fixing a gun fit into learning a new skill? I am unsure what you are trying to share with me here.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I lost myself. I was thinking about rules that don't appear to be in this playtest. Carry on.

 

[-Daniel-]

I lost myself. I was thinking about rules that don't appear to be in the playtest. Carry on.

Ah, ok. I just thought I was lost. :mrgreen:

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I need to see what else might be missing from this version. I suspect it went into the Traveller Companion pile. That's the next book I'm interested in checking out.

 

[ScottyG]

I'm not sure about EDU for learning either, I'd be more inclined towards Intelligence, or possibly aptitude on a skill by skill basis- i.e DEX for learning coordination related skills, STR for melee (though DEX could also be appropriate), EDU for sciences, INT for abstract skills (Investigation, Recon?).

Some skills should also require 'hands on' experience for levels above 0... though perhaps virtual simulations could be used at higher technological levels.

As an example no amount of reading (or watching instructional videos)on how to field strip an assault rifle in the dark and wet will enable you to easily field strip your assault rifle in the dark and the wet....

 

[alex_greene]

I'm not sure about EDU for learning either, I'd be more inclined towards Intelligence, or possibly aptitude on a skill by skill basis- i.e DEX for learning coordination related skills, STR for melee (though DEX could also be appropriate), EDU for sciences, INT for abstract skills (Investigation, Recon?).

Some skills should also require 'hands on' experience for levels above 0... though perhaps virtual simulations could be used at higher technological levels.

As an example no amount of reading (or watching instructional videos)on how to field strip an assault rifle in the dark and wet will enable you to easily field strip your assault rifle in the dark and the wet....

INT is for problem-solving and fluid intelligence. EDU is frozen intelligence and established knowledge, including the knowledge bases behind skills. And that includes prior experience obtained in the field such as training.

Who's to say your boot camp training in Gun Combat did not include midnight drills and practice in field stripping your LSP ACR-14 under filthy conditions and torrential rain?

 

[Golan2072]

Keep in mind that in Traveller:

1) Skills are the most important asset a character possesses (possibly barring starships), with each point in a skill being worth quite a lot, for example when compared to skill points in D20 systems. Having a kills of 1 means you have an employable skill - and a skill of 2-3 is professional level. So typical characters shouldn't have too many skills above 1.

2) Traveller uses a 2d6 curve, unlike the linear d20 roll of D20 games. Which means that every +1 is important and influential on the roll. Getting high skills quickly - will tend to "break" the 2d6 curve and yield automatic successes very easily.

3) You gain skills at chargen at the rate of a few per 4-year term, possibly 1-2 per 4 years. Gaining skills after character generation probably shouldn't be faster.

So 2 weeks plus check per skill level would be VERY VERY fast. I'd go as far as to one skill level (for the player to put anywhere he wants) per in-game year, or even per 2 (or 4!) in-game years. This will mirror the chargen skill advancement rates... Or use the systems given in Classic Traveller (i.e. Skill-2 by 4-year seminary).

 

[PsiTraveller]

Boosting EDU is easy if you got to University. Assuming you roll average dice you get +3 to EDU for a 4 year term. +1 just for going the school and +2 when you graduate. (pg 14) you also get a couple of skills.

The one week to roll seems incredibly fast. Pg 51 has the information.
Just what skills can be learned?
Let's take Medic as an example. Level 0 in 1 week. (To me that would be a first aid course. Welcom to basic first Aid)
1 more week of training and you roll Edu 8+, Let's say you get that as well.

2 more weeks, and two rolls and you have Medic 2. Medic lets you perform surgery. One month of study and you can perform surgery?

Even the Computers example of going from Level 1 to Level 2 in two weeks plus 2 successful checks seems a bit quick.

Increasing skills is important, and the 1 week in Jump offers a good chunk of time, but I think the speed needs to be re-examined.

 

[Loconius]

I agree that the week long training period is way to short after level 0. I don't know how that will work in play, but I would think some steadily increasing time period (1 * 10^level in weeks) or have the time increase in a progression like tasks or something... I think this will need revising.

 

[alex_greene]

Depends. A lot of the system assumes that many of those weeks are likely to be spent doing other things. You spend 3 days studying on board ship, bored to tears, and 4 days scrubbing the atmo processors while thinking about how you really need to get on with your studies.

Any alternative systems are going to be covered in The Traveller Companion, the closest Traveller's ever had to a Players Guide.

 

[Kaelic]

Depends. A lot of the system assumes that many of those weeks are likely to be spent doing other things. You spend 3 days studying on board ship, bored to tears, and 4 days scrubbing the atmo processors while thinking about how you really need to get on with your studies.

Any alternative systems are going to be covered in The Traveller Companion, the closest Traveller's ever had to a Players Guide.

So, the book is currently fine, please don't comment on the flaws, another book you haven't seen will fix it.

 

[-Daniel-]

So, the book is currently fine, please don't comment on the flaws, another book you haven't seen will fix it.

I have to agree with Kaelic, until we see different, we should continue to comment on what we see in context to what we see. I trust msprange is smart enough to know how to sort our comments in context to what he knows. :mrgreen:

 

[Kaelic]

So, the book is currently fine, please don't comment on the flaws, another book you haven't seen will fix it.

I have to agree with Kaelic, until we see different, we should continue to comment on what we see in context to what we see. I trust msprange is smart enough to know how to sort our comments in context to what he knows. :mrgreen:

This forum needs a Like button +1!

 

[Loconius]

Would a better fix be that the difficulty be higher as you learn newer skills; or should the time interval change?