Skill Progression and over-importance of EDU
- Thread starter Kaelic
- Start date
vladthemad
Mongoose
In case anyone missed it, there's a related topic discussing how the new skill progression is broken in general and most agree that it needs to be changed.
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=112313
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=112313
Currently looking at training, but the reliance on EDU is entirely intentional. In the future/modern world, it has to be the most important thing you can have in, well, almost any endeavour (a good dollop of INT will help too).
This just reflects that.
This just reflects that.
alex_greene
Guest
I like that anyone in the Far Future will have access to technology that could enable them to learn decent skill levels within weeks - but some correspondents have made a really good point that some skills might take a bit of time to study, not to earn the skill as such but to earn the qualification that allows one to practice.
Medicine is the primary skill I'm thinking of. Someone could advance from Medic 0 to Medic 1, but they'd likely be stuck at that level if all they ever got was formal First Aid training. Anything more will require med school; and the characters who can go from Medic 1 to Medic 2, Medic 3 and so on are those who went to med school during their careers and came out already as qualified and licensed doctors, ready to practice medicine.
So maybe there could be a line in the core book emphasising that access to these specific skills is only possible during the career, and only when they rolled for that skill on one of the skills tables or achieved it during an Event, e.g. med school for Medic, EOD training for Explosives, Flight School for Pilot and Flyer, with at least one term spent in the appropriate career to qualify or something.
Medicine is the primary skill I'm thinking of. Someone could advance from Medic 0 to Medic 1, but they'd likely be stuck at that level if all they ever got was formal First Aid training. Anything more will require med school; and the characters who can go from Medic 1 to Medic 2, Medic 3 and so on are those who went to med school during their careers and came out already as qualified and licensed doctors, ready to practice medicine.
So maybe there could be a line in the core book emphasising that access to these specific skills is only possible during the career, and only when they rolled for that skill on one of the skills tables or achieved it during an Event, e.g. med school for Medic, EOD training for Explosives, Flight School for Pilot and Flyer, with at least one term spent in the appropriate career to qualify or something.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
I liked that you combined INT and EDU in the total skill limit. I would like to see INT play into the training as well. I find it hard to believe a character with INT 2 and INT 12 learn at the same pace and the same quality regardless of EDU. I do like EDU is in the mix, but I really feel INT should be as well.msprange said:
msprange said:
Do you realise this means whatever stat gen method, everyone will ALWAYS put EDU to max. This removes reasonable choice. Additionally any existing campaign is way imbalanced by any characters having high EDU when others don't.
That is assuming you don't nerf training into the ground. I think Traveller lacks reasonable progression for players at this point, and have seen numerous seasoned RPers lose excitement in it over time. If the EDU reliance stays I will personally have to house rule it out, as it just won't work well.
If you want a real suggestion, dump training from the core rulebook all together and write an entire supplement with various ways Travellers can progress.
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
Didn't happen when we generated eight more characters last night. One person did use his highest 2 rolls for EDU and INT, then he qualified and entered the Scholar Career. Made sense. The rest EDU and INT were not their dump attributes, but not where they applied their high rolls either.Kaelic said:
I think the fear of the EDU onslaught will come to pass with some folks, but not ALWAYS.
alex_greene
Guest
I might point out that Cosmopolite had a whole subgame on the Training Round.Kaelic said:
Of course it's good to emphasise EDU if your character is the sort who wants to beef up his skills. Even in the core character generation system, EDU occupies a privileged position in that EDU 10+ or even EDU 8+ allows characters to roll on the Advanced Education table.
Practically speaking, though, a lot of Travellers are going to rely on the skills they already have once they are in play. Buffing up on skills is a down time pursuit for most Travellers; something they can do to while away the long, boring hours in Jump. Not the central raison d'etre of their lives.
I fear people are playing this in too much of a bubble. There are a lot of power gamers out there that play P&P games. You want to optimise or a long campaign? EDU, hands down. There is a reason other games balance progression better, so why is this system taking a pass on it?
Just because? Well, okay then. I prefer rules for gameplay personally, so will just house rule it if the community prefers to keep it this way. Literally everyone I've introduced to Traveller from typical D&D roots feel the game lacks character progression, and upon seeing the new system, would only take EDU.
Few months of jumping with +2 EDU and you're laughing for skills at the moment. Of course, I'm sure this will be solved byy nerfing training back to being more or less irrelevant, as opposed to having an enjoyable or at least existing progression system.
Just because? Well, okay then. I prefer rules for gameplay personally, so will just house rule it if the community prefers to keep it this way. Literally everyone I've introduced to Traveller from typical D&D roots feel the game lacks character progression, and upon seeing the new system, would only take EDU.
Few months of jumping with +2 EDU and you're laughing for skills at the moment. Of course, I'm sure this will be solved byy nerfing training back to being more or less irrelevant, as opposed to having an enjoyable or at least existing progression system.
Also regarding EDU, since the importance seems to be on some kind of pseudo-realism...
I'm a software engineer of 9 years, and I've worked in the games industry the whole time. I know a lot of really talented people. What I've never (or pretty much never) met is an amazing programmer, who was also an amazing 3D artist, animator, audio designer etc. EDU implies anyone with this stat can learn other skills. But in reality some people are better attuned at skill areas than others.
I can pick up tech pretty quick, problem solving based things, but learning to draw....it boggles the mind. So why in Traveller is realism carted out when referring to skill training as focusing entirely on one stat? That just isn't realistic. So please drop this argument.
If we drop that argument and look at it purely from gameplay, see my above posts of imbalance and character choice.
Basically I'm 100% unconvinced so far. You may not care what I think, but there it is.
I'm a software engineer of 9 years, and I've worked in the games industry the whole time. I know a lot of really talented people. What I've never (or pretty much never) met is an amazing programmer, who was also an amazing 3D artist, animator, audio designer etc. EDU implies anyone with this stat can learn other skills. But in reality some people are better attuned at skill areas than others.
I can pick up tech pretty quick, problem solving based things, but learning to draw....it boggles the mind. So why in Traveller is realism carted out when referring to skill training as focusing entirely on one stat? That just isn't realistic. So please drop this argument.
If we drop that argument and look at it purely from gameplay, see my above posts of imbalance and character choice.
Basically I'm 100% unconvinced so far. You may not care what I think, but there it is.
alex_greene
Guest
I'm going to quote Heinlein here.Kaelic said:
Also, a whole lot of links.
The Competent Man trope
A character who effectively has JoT 3
A real-life example of JoT 3 in action
Lazarus Long
The whole point about Travellers is that, as the Competent Men and Women of this trope, they can do the things that the stay-at-homes cannot do. And that is why the Patrons are always drawn to them, to solve the problems that the local talent can't even come close to sorting out.
-Daniel- said:
One that exists. Where people feel like their characters actually can do new things after dozens of sessions. The fact is, you can game the system. So smart players see that they could just take their money, rent an apartment and train for a year solid. That's not fun, they want to play the game and feel progression as they go.
What is the point in the way it's currently proposed? Yearly checks? 45% chance a year to gain a skill? Absurd. Should I sit and design a system for everyone? I'm giving my feedback on what I feel is wrong. If I were to write an entire progression system for Traveller, I'd sell it in a book!
-Daniel-
Emperor Mongoose
Ok, I will try again, please describe what the system you think should exist looks like. Please do not be condescending as I am trying to see what you are thinking. If you elect to join in the playtest, expect to be part of it. Offering suggestions and options is part of being a playtester.Kaelic said:
alex_greene
Guest
I think I know just what we need ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFrMLRQIT_k
The hour's approaching, just give it your best
You've got to reach your prime.
That's when you need to put yourself to the test,
And show us a passage of time,
We're gonna need a montage (montage)
Oh it takes a montage (montage)
Show a lot of things happening at once,
Remind everyone of what's going on (what's going on?)
And with every shot you show a little improvement
To show it all would take too long
That's called a montage (montage)
Oh we want montage (montage)
And anything that we want to go from just a beginner to a pro,
You need a montage (montage)
Even Rocky had a montage (montage)
(Montage, montage)
Always fade out in a montage,
If you fade out, it seem like more time
Has passed in a montage,
Montage ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFrMLRQIT_k
The hour's approaching, just give it your best
You've got to reach your prime.
That's when you need to put yourself to the test,
And show us a passage of time,
We're gonna need a montage (montage)
Oh it takes a montage (montage)
Show a lot of things happening at once,
Remind everyone of what's going on (what's going on?)
And with every shot you show a little improvement
To show it all would take too long
That's called a montage (montage)
Oh we want montage (montage)
And anything that we want to go from just a beginner to a pro,
You need a montage (montage)
Even Rocky had a montage (montage)
(Montage, montage)
Always fade out in a montage,
If you fade out, it seem like more time
Has passed in a montage,
Montage ...
ShawnDriscoll
Cosmic Mongoose
No one you work with has a high EDU is all. Polymaths have high EDU. People may also learn faster 3600+ years from now, I'm guessing. And Traveller is more a game than a simulator. It's where power-gamers comes from. Power-realists are not possible.Kaelic said:
vladthemad
Mongoose
ShawnDriscoll said:
Alright, I'm just going to call this for what it is...that was a really conceited and presumptuous thing to say. If he's a software engineer, I would assume everyone he works with has a high EDU. Now...if you said low SOC, that might be a different story.
Anyway, Kaelic, I get where you're coming from. Munchkins being what they are, will always work the system. Remember though that the rules as written don't let you assign stats as you desire. Players take the rolls in order. Of course anyone who has RPGed any length of time knows that's the first rule we throw out!
I have some munchkinesque players and they don't always opt for high EDU. DEX is the other choice characteristic. Oh, and one that loves high SOC.
I do agree that 1 year per skill point is probably too long, but the previous system of 1 week per attempt was too short. So where's the middle ground? Three months? Six? I also get that "studying" just isn't very fun. So what then, a different system all together? Hmm...wait a minute...I got something...(This is just a rough idea here mind you)
Every time a player succeeds with a skill roll in a useful manner as agreed to by the GM (meaning no saying I'm buying tacos and haggle over the price to help improve broker), he notes it on his character sheet. When there's a break in that adventure as called for by the GM, each player gets a chance to see if he's improved the skills the GM told him to note. He now simply rolls a d6. If it's above his current skill level, he gains a point in that skill.
Using something like this, if you have no or a low skill, it's going to be harder for you to succeed, but if you do succeed it's going to be easier for you to learn from that success. On the other hand, if you have a high skill it will be easier for you to succeed but it will be less likely you will learn from that success.
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