Single Weapon Style vs Dual Weapon or Weapon and Shield

[duncan_disorderly]

So, not only does combat style: 'sword and shield' contain sword without shield, but combat style: '1H sword' also covers sword and shield?

No, he still can't parry with the shield, so he'd just use that at str+dex. But he still gets an extra CA for carrying it around and can use that extra CA to pin people with his Rapier.

That doesn't sound right to me (and I'm an advocate of not forcing the bonus CA for dual wielding to be used by the "off hand"!). If you can't use the shield then carrying it is a hindrance not a benefit, so you shouldn't be getting a bonus for carrying it, and especially not a bonus rapier attack.

Though, if we are to say that if someone with a one-handed combat style were to pick up a shield they would gain the extra CA and suffer no skill penalty...

It was a RAW discussion, and that's RAW I think. They still would be miserable at using that shield but they'd be better at pricking people with their rapier when they had it.

I don't think this is right. You don't have a "Rapier" skill and a separate "Shield" skill.
Things can become more complex when there is some overlap in Styles. Say you had 90% in "Spear and Shield" and 70% in "1H Sword" (Rapier) - You are fighting with your Rapier and pick up a Shield - What Combat Style and therefore what skill are you using? "Spear and Shield" at a penalty for using the "wrong weapon"? "1H Sword" at a penalty for using an unfamiliar shield? "1H Sword & Shield", for which you are untrained?

What if you have "Spear & Shield" at 90% and "1H Sword & Shield" at 70%. It surely can't be intended that you could then use your Sword to attack at 70%, and parry at 90% using the skill from your "other" style?

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Where Longspear isn't included because it can't be used alongside a shield, and the two last of those depend on his cultural heritage.

Yelmalio has been teaching RQ Characters the skill of 2H-Spear & Shield since "Cults of Prax" (1979...)

 

[DamonJynx]

What if you have "Spear & Shield" at 90% and "1H Sword & Shield" at 70%. It surely can't be intended that you could then use your Sword to attack at 70%, and parry at 90% using the skill from your "other" style?

That's definitely not the intention IMO, at least I wouldn't allow it. If you're fighting Sword & Shield that covers both attacks and parries with that combination. The Spear & Shield or whatever other combat style, regardless if they overlap, should always be treated separately. I would use the 'main' hand weapon to determine what style is being used.

 

[Da Boss]

I have found that the Combat Styles idea is a nice one but tends to fall down on exactly this type of issue when you start looking and/or playing.... House rules are essential, IMO to make it work in game play and a lot of work pre game by the GM to decide which house rulings he is going to make and what elements of the rules he is going to use/ not use. Otherwise you end up with lots of "But what if and how come and does this do which majorily disrupts the flow in favour of a rules exploration".

A bit like the mess that is the charging rules this element is not ready for "pick up and play" gaming.

 

[Mixster]

What if you have "Spear & Shield" at 90% and "1H Sword & Shield" at 70%. It surely can't be intended that you could then use your Sword to attack at 70%, and parry at 90% using the skill from your "other" style?

That's definitely not the intention IMO, at least I wouldn't allow it. If you're fighting Sword & Shield that covers both attacks and parries with that combination. The Spear & Shield or whatever other combat style, regardless if they overlap, should always be treated separately. I would use the 'main' hand weapon to determine what style is being used.

On the contrary, I'd say that this is exactly how the rule should be used.
You are using your 1H Sword style, but missing the component "unarmed in other hand" you can still use your 1h sword style at 70%.
You are also using yours Spear and Shield style, but missing the spear component. So you can still use your shield at 90%.

 

[DamonJynx]

On the contrary, I'd say that this is exactly how the rule should be used.
You are using your 1H Sword style, but missing the component "unarmed in other hand" you can still use your 1h sword style at 70%.
You are also using yours Spear and Shield style, but missing the spear component. So you can still use your shield at 90%.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

IMO, that's min-maxing of the worst kind.

 

[Mixster]

IMO, that's min-maxing of the worst kind.

I'm a min/maxer.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

On the contrary, I'd say that this is exactly how the rule should be used.
You are using your 1H Sword style, but missing the component "unarmed in other hand" you can still use your 1h sword style at 70%.
You are also using yours Spear and Shield style, but missing the spear component. So you can still use your shield at 90%.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

If you are doing that, why bother with combat styles? revert back to having a "sword" skill, a "spear" skill and a "shield" skill, and use whichever is appropriate at the time.

 

[Deleriad]

I think the intent of combat styles is a bit buried but there's a clue where in unarmed it says that basically unarmed sucks but at least you can use it "interchangeably with other combat styles." What that means to me is that you can't normally mix combat styles.

What mixing means is undefined but one way to run it is to say that when its your action and you make an attack you declare what combat style you are using and that then becomes your combat style until your next Strike Rank.

So say someone knows Hammer & shield 90% & Sword & Shield 70%. He happens to have a sword and shield in hand so attacks with sword & shield style. Until his next SR, if he wants to parry then he must use his sword & shield style or his unarmed style.

I would also say that if someone was using a Ranged Combat style such as Bow that it does not normally include the ability to parry with the bow (unless the style says otherwise). So if you fire a bow then someone swings at you then you would have either to parry with unarmed or evade.

That said, I also allow characters to use their unarmed skill for improvised weapons such as bottles, chair legs and bows. Usually give them 1D4 damage size S, range touch unless the object appears to indicate otherwise.

Anyway, that's how I made sense of the rules.

 

[Piperdog]

Well, I think its strength is in its ability to houserule. In the example above, I can see how keeping styles separate can be argued for or against. One could simply state that if you have a hammer and shield style at 90%, and a sword and shield style at 70%, why could I not block with my shield at the highest skill level (90%) even when using a sword? After all, blocking with a shield is blocking with a shield right? But on the other hand, style takes into account how that shield moves in conjunction with the offensive weapon. If you are using a hammer and shield, or a short spear and shield, in real combat you would rely completely on your shield for defense, while in a sword and shield style you would, on occasion, be used to your blade parrying as well. So the "style" is different and how dependent you have to be on your shield will affect your ability to block with the shield in that style.

I have to admit though that I have been pondering separting shield as its own skill.

In reference to the "why choose single weapon rather than duel weapon or weapon and shield" issue, I have some simple rules that make sense. For example, if you choose sword and shield style but you end up fighting with just a sword, I give a penalty of -10% to parry, as you instinctively want to raise your shield arm to block, and less experience relying on the blade to defend with. Thats just one rule but I have others. It isn't world shaking but gives some realism and makes people think a bit more about choosing styles.

 

[RangerDan]

That said, I also allow characters to use their unarmed skill for improvised weapons such as bottles, chair legs and bows. Usually give them 1D4 damage size S, range touch unless the object appears to indicate otherwise.

I do something similar (idea lifted from Age of Treason), basically allowing the Unarmed skill (renamed "Brawl") to be used to replace the specific skill for any improvised or untrained weapon. Various penalties apply however:
* reduced weapon damage by one die category.
* reduced weapon size by one category.
* Cannot use CMs that require a crit (even on a crit).

So a character with a high Brawl skill is moderately effective with almost any weapon(s) he can get hit hands on, though he will still be clearly outclassed by a trained warrior using his favoured weapons (even at equal skill %s).

This is a Conanesque S&S game however where being handy with all weapons is typical to the setting.

Stuff about mixing Combat Styles

On the topic of mixing Combat Style because of disarms, damaged weapons, etc., I don't really like adjudicating penalties for this.
I rather did it the other way around, creating some bonuses and Legendary Abilities that are tied to specific Combat Styles and weapon combinations. So if a fighter that is trained in Sword and Shield find himself with an axe and shield, he can still parry at full %, and attack at his Brawl skill, but he could not use the Legendary Ability that is tied to him having a particular Combat Style at 90%+ (because he is not using that complete Combat Style at this particular moment).

Similarly, why choose single weapon rather than weapon and shield or dual wield? For flavour mostly, but I also created some specific bonuses and legendary abilities tied to single-weapon Combat Styles to make them competitive and/or different. As others have said, training in a single weapon exclusively can/should lead to some advantages or exotic techniques.

 

[Mixster]

That said, I also allow characters to use their unarmed skill for improvised weapons such as bottles, chair legs and bows. Usually give them 1D4 damage size S, range touch unless the object appears to indicate otherwise.

I do something similar (idea lifted from Age of Treason), basically allowing the Unarmed skill (renamed "Brawl") to be used to replace the specific skill for any improvised or untrained weapon. Various penalties apply however:
* reduced weapon damage by one die category.
* reduced weapon size by one category.
* Cannot use CMs that require a crit (even on a crit).

So a character with a high Brawl skill is moderately effective with almost any weapon(s) he can get hit hands on, though he will still be clearly outclassed by a trained warrior using his favoured weapons (even at equal skill %s).

This is a Conanesque S&S game however where being handy with all weapons is typical to the setting.

I like this a lot. Simple and effective way to make warriors able to use what they pick up at some skill, but still only specialize in one or two weapons.

I think the intent of combat styles is a bit buried but there's a clue where in unarmed it says that basically unarmed sucks but at least you can use it "interchangeably with other combat styles." What that means to me is that you can't normally mix combat styles.

What mixing means is undefined but one way to run it is to say that when its your action and you make an attack you declare what combat style you are using and that then becomes your combat style until your next Strike Rank.

So say someone knows Hammer & shield 90% & Sword & Shield 70%. He happens to have a sword and shield in hand so attacks with sword & shield style. Until his next SR, if he wants to parry then he must use his sword & shield style or his unarmed style.

But according to the rules, if he had hammer and shield at 90% and sword and shield at 70%, and he used a hammer and shield he'd parry at 90%, if he then lost his hammer (through disarming him), he'd still parry at 90%, if he then draws his sword, he only parries at 70%?
Where do you stop this?
What if for example this guy had only Sword And Shield at 90%, and Dagger at 40%. His sword is disarmed and he picks up his dagger, does he go down to the dagger at 40%?

I would also say that if someone was using a Ranged Combat style such as Bow that it does not normally include the ability to parry with the bow (unless the style says otherwise). So if you fire a bow then someone swings at you then you would have either to parry with unarmed or evade.[/quote
I would allow this, but if someone swings at you with a anything but a fist and you parry with your bow it is pretty much ruined.

 

[DrBargle]

But according to the rules, if he had hammer and shield at 90% and sword and shield at 70%, and he used a hammer and shield he'd parry at 90%, if he then lost his hammer (through disarming him), he'd still parry at 90%, if he then draws his sword, he only parries at 70%?
Where do you stop this?
What if for example this guy had only Sword And Shield at 90%, and Dagger at 40%. His sword is disarmed and he picks up his dagger, does he go down to the dagger at 40%?

Which is why, if we're going to have combat styles, in my opinion they need to be the much broader cultural styles that contain a whole host of weapons (and are subsequently less crunchy), or, if they're to be at the 'Sword and Shield' level of granularity, despite RAW, insert a penalty when a weapon/shield is missing (and/or apply the penalty for substituted weapons/shields to the style, not treating each hand as if they can fight with a different combat style individually). That, or go back to the older RQ model of combat skills, with 'Shield', '1h Sword', etc. each being a skill.

I'm aware that we're going round in circles...

Mixster suggests that I like stopping my players doing things. I worry that he might be right. Aware of that, I am, despite my initial misgivings, leaning towards the idea of broader cultural styles of fighting (though I wary that such all encompassing combat skills might well be prone to rapid inflation - as each character will be training / using improvement rolls for an all-around 'Combat Skill' - ack, my tendency to limit players comes in again!).

 

[DamonJynx]

But according to the rules, if he had hammer and shield at 90% and sword and shield at 70%, and he used a hammer and shield he'd parry at 90%, if he then lost his hammer (through disarming him), he'd still parry at 90%, if he then draws his sword, he only parries at 70%? Correct. Because his training and experience in using his shield with a sword is not as great as as with the hammer.
Where do you stop this? There is no need too. As DrBargle says, create a combat style that suits the setting, culture and personal preferences eg, Shield Warrior - All 1H Melee weapons and Shield, then it doesn't matter.
What if for example this guy had only Sword And Shield at 90%, and Dagger at 40%. His sword is disarmed and he picks up his dagger, does he go down to the dagger at 40%? That's an interesting question, I assume you're referring to his ability to parry with his shield? I'd have to think about that, I'd allow the parry with the shield but probably subject it to some minor penalty for fighting with it in an unaccustomed manner. The other situation is different as they are two distinct styles.

 

[jwpacker]

Having read through the whole of the thread, I'm going have to jump on the "individual skills" bandwagon. It's more bookkeeping, and costs the players more, but it's just so much easier to deal with the various cases without losing any real sense of realism.

That said, I will likely keep a variation on the penalty for unfamiliar weapons - basically that you have a "preferred weapon" associated with the skill (or "preferred shield") and that you can't change it except between adventures, and for any other weapon you'd be at a flat -10% on your skill.

 

[windmark728]

As being fairly new to RQ as a whole, the idea of weapon styles sounded great to me- until I actually understood what they really meant and how they were to be used. I also prefer to use "individual skills".

I simply categorize the skills into one-handed and two-handed weapon types (Blunt, Bladed, etc.) and it seems to work fine. I have been using a -30% unfamiliar weapon skill penalty, but perhaps that is to extreme...

 

[DamonJynx]

In another post I mentioned the Pan Tangian Gladiator style from the Elric setting, look at that as an example of how to construct multi-weapon combat styles.

Personally, I like combat styles. Players should be able to use basically any arrangement of weapons in a style, even if that means creating your own beyond the core rules. You just have to agree at the start to what is, and what isn't acceptable.

 

[RangerDan]

Having read through the whole of the thread, I'm going have to jump on the "individual skills" bandwagon. It's more bookkeeping, and costs the players more, but it's just so much easier to deal with the various cases without losing any real sense of realism.

I don't so much think that you need to "choose," in fact I would argue that different solutions are applicable depending on the campaign.

As I said in another thread on this subject, I have a Conanesque S&S with a high level of Combat Style granularity, so players have Sword & Shield, Spear & Shield, Sword & Axe, Zingaran Fencing, the above-mentioned Brawl, and many others. We keep track of who is holding what, and players have clear favourite weapon combinations they fight with. But this is a game with a lot of fighting.

I'm also currently working on a steampunk homebrew (world of Arcanum), where combat will not be the focus.
At the moment I have six Combat Styles that should cover pretty much everything:
* Brawl (unarmed combat, and simple weapons like daggers, clubs... basically a thug's arsenal).
* Melee, Civilised (weapons used by trained soldiers in the setting, swords, axes, halberds).
* Melee, Primitive (weapons used by the setting's barbarians, spears, mauls, etc.)
* Guns (self-explanatory)
* Archery (for the Elves in the setting... and modern techbows)
* Artifice (for the weirder tech items... think flamethrowers and Tesla guns)

I'll do my best to make every possible item fit into one of those six, and then not worry too much about exactly what everyone is carrying in each hand and what penalties to apply.

Long post, my point is different campaign needs will lead to different solutions to this particular pickle (even from the same GM!).

Also, as DamonJynx says, it really pays to think about this before you start the campaign so as to avoid surprising your players further down the road...

 

[Mikko Leho]

I simply categorize the skills into one-handed and two-handed weapon types (Blunt, Bladed, etc.) and it seems to work fine.

Fantasy Craft RPG uses similar approach and there are some quirks that annoy me. For example there are four weapons: great sword, great axe, great warhammer and quaterstaff. By categorizing weapons by their damage type, the sword and axe are grouped together (both do slashing damage) as are warhammer and quaterstaff (both bludgeoning [warhammer might do piercing depending on your definitions but let's not get there now]). However you are more likely to be profient in using both warhammer and axe because they operate somewhat alike and while there are differences they are not as great as between warhammer and quarterstaff. IMHO weapon skills should be categorized how they are used instead of what damage they cause. I know this opens another set of difficulties but I have never been satisfied with RPG weapons classified by their damage type.

 

[Da Boss]

The whole combat styles /weapon groups thing is something I keep playing with - my last version was this for a campaign pack - sorry if it is a bit long:

Combat StylesThe varied races and cultures of the world have developed a variety of fighting styles in their interactions with each other and the world around them. A Combat Style represents the individuals ability in combat with specific weapons and is separated into melee and ranged styles. A practitioner of these styles is able to use all the listed weapons either individually or in conjunction with any of the others.
Specialisation
Should a character wish to specialise further and perfect his skill in a specific weapon, he can spend skill points in one or more of the individual weapons within the Style to raise it higher than the others. If the general Combat Style increases, the individual weapon specialised in does not increase until the general Combat Style reaches the same level of skill.

Caravan Guard
Melee: Dagger, Sword (*), Lance, Shield, Ranged: Bow or Crossbow,

Elf Raider
Melee: Dagger, Dual / Single Sword (*), Lance, Shield, Ranged: Bow, Thrown Dagger

Gladiator
Melee: Choose any three Weapon Groups,

Heavy Infantry Soldier
Melee: Dagger, Sword, Shield, 1H Spear,

(*) This can be swapped in character generation for proficiency with a similar hand weapon to
represent a personal preference.

UnarmedAbility in this style represents advanced training in unarmed combat techniques. A character without this Style uses the sum of his Strength and Dexterity when attempting punches, kicks and grapples. He may also use weapons in the Hand Weapon Group at –20 unless he or she already has the skill / style at a higher level.

A character with an individual ability in or a Combat Style that uses a distinct weapon or Weapon
Group is able to use weapons in the same weapon group without penalty. He or she may use
weapons in the same Class (Artillery, Melee or Ranged) at half skill and a 2HD version of the same
weapon at –30. If the base chance (STR+DEX) or an appropriate skill /style is higher than the
modified chance – use this instead.

Example:
Moloc Strongarm, a veteran human mercenary has the Combat Style Caravan Guard (melee) at
75%. He is therefore able to wield any dagger, 1HD sword, spear or shield at 75% and any other
melee weapon at 37%.

Melee (STR+DEX): Includes the following distinct Weapon Groups
1HD Axe (Battleaxe, Hatchet, Sickle,)
2HD Axe (Great Axe, Wood Axe,)
1HD Club (Club, Cudgel,)
2HD Club (Great Club, Huge Branch)
Dagger (Dagger, Dirk, Knife, Pocket Knife)
Flail (Ball & Chain, Chain, Flail, Military Flail, Morning Star, Whip,)
1HD Hammer (Hammer, Mace, War Hammer)
2HD Hammer (Great Hammer, Heavy Mace, Sledge Hammer),
Hand (Armoured Gauntlet, Knuckleduster, War Gauntlet)
Net
Polearm (Bill, Glaive, Halberd, Pike, Poleaxe, Trident),
Shield (Buckler, Fang Shield, Heater Shield, Kite Shield)
Spear (Javelin, Lance, Long Spear, Pike, Short Spear, Trident)
Staff (Quarter Staff, Short Staff),
1HD Sword (Bastard Sword, Broadsword, Long Sword, Sabre, Scimitar, Short Sword, Sickle,
War Sword),
2HD Sword (Bastard Sword, Great Sword, Long Sword, Tulwar)

Ranged (DEX x2): Includes the following Weapon Groups
Bow (Horse Bow, Long Bow, Recurve Bow, Short Bow)
Crossbow (Arblest, Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, Repeating Crossbow, Wrist Bow)
Sling (Sling, Staff Sling),
Thrown (Axe, Chakram, Knife, Spike)
Thrown Spear (Javelin, Thrown Spear),