Simple weapon speed idea

[Sutek]

My only issue with the extra attacks based on weapon class and BAB is that it's crossing the line into charact skill (BAB) and that already increases. BAB is a measure of ability to hit, not quickness, and weapon class already effects how the weapon can be used (two-handed, two weapons, finessed, etc.). Those factors already adjust part of the attack round, and they work just fine.

I think I like the lowered initiative, personally. This simulates impared reaction time, but it's something that can be over come by feats ot abilitiy increas and it really only applies to big weapons, so it can be avoided by weapon selection.

Wepon speed should be based soley on the weapon. It should have absolutely nothing to do with the character using it, other than to speed him up or slow him down. Since Conan is already a fast and furious combat, I see slowing it down as the better option.

Furthermore, regularly recalculating "weapon speed" off a changing BAB score seems more complicatred than saying "two handed weapons are -2". I just dont'think that's complicated at all.

 

[Trodax]

Furthermore, regularly recalculating "weapon speed" off a changing BAB score seems more complicatred than saying "two handed weapons are -2". I just dont'think that's complicated at all.

Well, -2 to initiative isn't complicated at all as long as the two combatants are just trading attacks with their respective weapons. When it becomes messy is when the guy with the two-handed weapon decides to, for example, tumble out of combat and move instead of attacking, cast a spell, or drop his two-hander, draw a dagger and attack with that. On what initiative count would these things happen? His original count, his modified one, or something else? My point is that you will have to start recalculating initiative based on the actions taken. Not saying thats undoable, but it will make things more complicated.

Further, having a initiative penalty because you're fighting with a heavy weapon isn't really going to "slow you down". Well, it sort of is, but only in the first round of combat (which is the only time when initiative really matters) where you will be more likely to be caught flat-footed. Since initiative in d20 is cyclical, after the first round of combat you're not really at a disadvantage if you have a initiative penalty. After 10 rounds of combat the guy with the dagger will have attacked 10 times, and the guy with the greatsword will have attacked 10 times, even if the latter is at a -2 initiative penalty.

 

[Sutek]

Initiative only really matters for the first round of combat?

Are we looking at the same game?

Initiative is rolled before every combat and stays at that count for each combatant throughout the combat. The guy with the two-handed greatsword will simply be at -2 to that roll if that's the weapon he chooses to fight with.

Drawing a weapon is a move action, not a standard action, so if he drops his greatsword in favor of a broad sword, the -2 penalty is no longer in effect for the rest of the combat. If his count was 19, then -2 for the great weapon attacking in 17, then dropping the great weapon simply makes it 19 again. Remember, dropping an item is a free action, so it's only the equipping that costs an action, then the count is simply modified.

Since it's only ever a -2 or -4 calculation is a snap.

To you comment about the cyclical nature of D20 combat, I agree to an extent, but it's always better to have the better initiative. So, with my suggested method, the guy with the dagger has 10 strikes to the greatsword's 10 strikes, but because the dagger is usually going to be striking first if it's down to just the initiative mod by weapon, then he gets more damaging strikes first.

In other words, say dagger rolls a 18 INIT and greatsword rolls an 21. Because of the -4 INIT mod for an exotic two-handed weapon, his INIT count drops to 17, 1 count less than the dagger. Now the dagger can take advantage of the slower acting greatsword and potentially deal damage first, eleminating the threat.

 

[Trodax]

To you comment about the cyclical nature of D20 combat, I agree to an extent, but it's always better to have the better initiative. So, with my suggested method, the guy with the dagger has 10 strikes to the greatsword's 10 strikes, but because the dagger is usually going to be striking first if it's down to just the initiative mod by weapon, then he gets more damaging strikes first.

Yeah, you're right of course; the guy with the dagger will have an advantage because he deals his damage first and might drop his opponent before he can retaliate. I don't consider this that big of a deal, though (in some cases it will, of course, be a huge deal; the difference between life and death, in fact :wink: ).

The really important thing with initiative is during the first round. If you have a low initiative, you will remain flat-footed while everyone else gets to hack away at your measly DV of 10. If there are sneak-attackers around, this can be fatal.
Therefore, the biggest impact of having an initiative penalty will be felt in the first round. The guy with the dagger will be more likely to get the jump on his greatsword-wielding opponent, and stab him flat-footed. Personally, I don't like that effect. Sure, maybe it makes sense that its hard to bring up that heavy greatsword for an effective parry, but why would the wielder's reactions be slowed so he can't even dodge the attack? I think one could also claim it should realistically be the other way around; the dagger-wielder should a have a harder time closing in on an opponent with a large weapon (for weapons with reach, this is still true, though).

In a different system, initiative penalties could make more sense. For example, in the game Exalted, you roll for initiative at the start of every round, and it's very important to get the highest score. This is because if you get hit before you have acted in the round, you are forced to "abort to parry", forsaking your own attacks for the round. Of course, in this game its the other way around; large weapons give you a initiative bonus (while light weapons instead let you make more attacks).
d20 doesn't work that way, its set up so that initiative is really important in the first round, and then only provides an order of acting for the remainder of the fight. In d20, the most noticeable effect of initiative penalties will therefore be: you are more likely to get caught flat-footed if you wield a large weapon.

 

[High Lord Dee]

Maybe I am missing something. If you really want to use weapon speed as a factor, this would be a great setting to do it in. Based on low magic and lack of magic items, anything to add interest to combat might be of value. I will not be using due to the many comments listed in this thread already. It could slow down combat and that is never good.

However, if I were to implement it, I would try to keep it simple. A single table could be developed. Base it on the many other systems that have done the research on weapon speed. I would recommend forgetting about how individual stats (i.e. strength, dex) affect weapon speed. If you do not have the strength to wield a two-handed weapon, then you won't. IMHO there is no true correlation between strength and weapon speed. It is based on the design and the intent of the weapon. Just because you are stronger than your opponent does not mean you can swing your weapon (i.e. George Foreman was one of the most powerful knock out punchers in history based on his strength and also slow as molasses) faster. A simple +/- to initiative based on weapon type would work.

 

[Sutek]

Yep, that's my thinking too. Thus my -2/-4 for two-handed martial/exotic weapons and -2 for two-handed exotic Akbitanan weapons (not Akbitanan two-handed weapons themselve, just exotic ones).

I think that one aspect you aren't seeing Trodax (or maybe you are but just don't like the idea) is that with an INIT penalty mechanic, a combatant could opt to drop his slower two-handed weapon in favor of another faster one in mid-combat, altering the count flow and gaining the upper hand on a previously quicker opponent. Also, there's not guarantee that a dagger weilder will go first anyway - it is still a d20 roll from the get go. He may roll poorly. Having the INIT penalty based on weapon type just breaks ties or makes weapon choice a factor in INIT, which I like.