Should two-handed weapons be weakened in Conan 2nd?

[Bregales]

Ooops, I didn't realize that. Thanks Trodax. :lol:
Well, like I wrote in the last line of my above post, "Now, I'm the slowest reader on the planet, and have only gotten to page 25 of the AE so far in my re-read, but IIRC there are feats like Ambidexterous/erity to compensate for the off-hand penalty."

So I'll just *snip* my reply above, as I need to do more reading of the book and less writing here until I at least get caught up!

 

[Yogah of Yag]

I wish to lodge a complaint:

What about three-handed weapons?!?
:lol:

 

[Bregales]

I'd have thought you'd have asked "trunk-and-two-hands weapons"

 

[jadrax]

True, it does take three feats, but since the greatsword-wielder becomes a virtual lawnmower against mooks, it is well worth it.

Personally I wouldn't waste the feats on the Cleave Chain, theres a lot of much, much better abilities out there.

No way! An opponent in DR 8 heavy armor will be very hard to tackle for a finesse-fighter (unless you are of very much higher level, in which case he'll be cut to pieces), but if you can penetrate with a big two-hander, those 4 points of reduced damage ain't that bad (if you're doing like 2d10+6 to begin with). IME, two-handers are king against heavy armor.

Feint, reduce ac to 10 + armour level, finesse through and kill foe with your sneak attack.

On average our party thief butchers the Armour 11 guys in a round, while the Two handed users are reduced to chipping away hit points slowly.

Yes, but if you do, you can destroy them all in one round.

Never personally seen it happen, too many dice rolls and as soon as you hit one bad one your chain is over. Where as the guy duel wielding sabers can be turned into a virtual crit machine for the same price in feats, without that disadvantage.

 

[Trodax]

True, it does take three feats, but since the greatsword-wielder becomes a virtual lawnmower against mooks, it is well worth it.

Personally I wouldn't waste the feats on the Cleave Chain, theres a lot of much, much better abilities out there.

In my game I've seen the Cleave-stuff used to nasty effects. It was never this useful in D&D, where at higher levels your opponents usually had a lot of hit points, but in Conan I've been sending a lot more mooks (level 1-3 characters) against the PC's, which Cleave works wonders against. This really depends on how you run the game, though (if you "up the scale" at higher levels so that there are no more low-level opponents, then Cleave would be much less useful).

I'll also point out that I'm only going by the feats in the Core rulebook in these discussions (those are the only ones I use in my game).

No way! An opponent in DR 8 heavy armor will be very hard to tackle for a finesse-fighter (unless you are of very much higher level, in which case he'll be cut to pieces), but if you can penetrate with a big two-hander, those 4 points of reduced damage ain't that bad (if you're doing like 2d10+6 to begin with). IME, two-handers are king against heavy armor.

Feint, reduce ac to 10 + armour level, finesse through and kill foe with your sneak attack.

On average our party thief butchers the Armour 11 guys in a round, while the Two handed users are reduced to chipping away hit points slowly.

Sure, a lot of sneak attack will be deadly against most anything; you'll probably be doing quite a bit of damage even if you don't successfully finesse. But sneak attacks have other imposed limitations; the classes that get them are weaker in combat, feinting requires a roll and is restricted to one attack per round, etc. etc. I've found that two-handers can quite reliantly deal with heavy armor (and not just by "chipping away hit points slowly"!).

Yes, but if you do, you can destroy them all in one round.

Never personally seen it happen, too many dice rolls and as soon as you hit one bad one your chain is over. Where as the guy duel wielding sabers can be turned into a virtual crit machine for the same price in feats, without that disadvantage.

I've seen some crazy-ass shit with Great Cleave in my game. I guess our experiences colour our opinions.

 

[Majestic7]

Hmm, I don't see what the problem really is. If a guy with a greatsword kills a lot of generic warriors in combat because he is specialized in doing that very thing (through feats etc), what is the problem? He is then just good at what he does. I think it is fine that some weapons just are better than others. The better attack power of two-handed weapons comes at the price of lower defence. Make the enemies react to the tactics used by the player characters. If they have a reputation for going around chopping people up in melee with giant swords, have them annoy them with ranged attacks from a distance, keeping outside the melee range.

I really don't think every combat style needs to be equal in effectiviness. Two-handed chopping is more deadly on fair one-on-one fighting, but like have already pointed out, two weapons are really good with finesse and sneak attack. In my campaign, the low defence of the two greatsword wielders is really a problem for them.

 

[slaughterj]

Feint, reduce ac to 10 + armour level, finesse through and kill foe with your sneak attack.

On average our party thief butchers the Armour 11 guys in a round, while the Two handed users are reduced to chipping away hit points slowly.

Care to provide some specificity on this? It seems the only way this happens is if:
1. he surprises or gets the drop on a foe at the start of combat (i.e., they are still flatfooted),
2. he is able to step into a flanking position, or
3. he has improved feint and succeeds in the roll

The first scenario will happen some, due to the Thief's reflexes and likely Improved Initiative, provided the Thief is close enough to attack.

The second scenario will happen some as well, but to some extent will depend on how well the GM runs the NPCs and how much tumbling the Thief does.

The third scenario will happen some if he has the feat (presumably generally won't bother unless have the feat, which also requires combat expertise and INT 13).

So while each of the above scenarios will happen some, enabling the Thief to sneak attack, the two-handed users will still be Power Attacking for a lot every round. While the two-handed users likely won't be AP the DR 11, I seriously doubt they encounter that many NPCs with DR 11, most are likely in the DR range that will be halved by the two-handed users AP.

 

[jadrax]

Again it depends on the game, I pretty much curse buying power attack, I hardly ever use it.

And you don't need improved Feint to feint at all, it just makes it faster.

 

[jadrax]

I've seen some crazy-ass **** with Great Cleave in my game. I guess our experiences colour our opinions.

Yeah I mean realistically they're always going too.

To counter my own arguments, I have seen GMs where every fight is against Undead or Constructs, and Sneak attack is worth effectively squat. hell at the extreme we fought a Formless Spawn of Tsoguatha, where the best weapon was a Silver Candle stick, as it was Immune to everything else we had!

In general I carry a Bardish and a Cutlass, Hand Axe and shield, And swap between the Two-hander, Sword and Board and Duel-wield, depending what I am facing/What I am doing.

 

[Sutek]

In general I carry a Bardish and a Cutlass, Hand Axe and shield, And swap between the Two-hander, Sword and Board and Duel-wield, depending what I am facing/What I am doing.

And that's the way to play it.

The three instaces mentioned where a Sneak Attack can occur ride on top of on another so when one isn't available, the player can just go down the check list. Every attack he makes can be a Sneak Attack, just like every attack a Barsiche wielder makes can be a Power Attack.

The major difference is that the ability to hit is diminished when using Power Attack, so strike will typically start at targets with moderate DV with the intent of Cleaving into targets with lower DV. If you sacrifice 5 points to damage a target to get a Cleave going, you are less likely to hit in each CLeave-allowed attack therafter too.

But that's talking about Feats and tactics.

Should two-handed weapon damage be modified? Not at all. The damage values reflect the massive weight of huge weapons far better in Conan than in any other fantasy d20 rules set. They can get insane when players con centrate thier efforts on getting just the right feats every level to ensure gigantic per-round, per-swing damage levels, but (A) that's the nature of the rules lawyer, min-maxing player, and (B) it's Conan's Hyboria...so what!?!?!

:lol:

 

[Trodax]

In general I carry a Bardish and a Cutlass, Hand Axe and shield, And swap between the Two-hander, Sword and Board and Duel-wield, depending what I am facing/What I am doing.

And that's the way to play it.

To be honest, I think that sounds more like a D&D character than anything you'd see in the Conan stories (even if the weapons are non-magical :wink: ). Conan was never a walking armoury.

 

[Majestic7]

To be honest, I think that sounds more like a D&D character than anything you'd see in the Conan stories (even if the weapons are non-magical :wink: ). Conan was never a walking armoury.

I think it's bad to compare every player character to Conan. Conan is superhuman, a legendary hero by the time he wears the crown of Aquilonia. Just look at his stats, they are better than normal methods of character generation can provide. Just because Conan could kill a dozen Picts armed only with an apple put in a wet sock doesn't mean that everyone should be able to do the same. Carrying three weapons and a shield doesn't sound too bad to me - rather, it is a realistic arsenal, at least if there's a horse (or slave/squire) to carry some of the weight.

I at least like the idea of player characters being the "normal people" of Hyboria, at least in the beginning and perhaps becoming heroes later on, instead of being Conan-like supermen from the beginning.

 

[Sutek]

I agree. Carrying multiple weapons for combat versitility is historical fact, not to mention a good idea in the game.

Spear, sword dagger has the normal soldier outfit for millenia.

 

[slaughterj]

In general I carry a Bardish and a Cutlass, Hand Axe and shield, And swap between the Two-hander, Sword and Board and Duel-wield, depending what I am facing/What I am doing.

And that's the way to play it.

To be honest, I think that sounds more like a D&D character than anything you'd see in the Conan stories (even if the weapons are non-magical :wink: ). Conan was never a walking armoury.

I agree. I run Conan games like the stories, there is a lot of turnover in what people have at any given time, and there isn't much of an opportunity to accumulate a stockpile of weapons like this.

I will note that that is a very good selection if you are able to have it though, you get a cheap but powerful 2-handed weapon, the Cutlass does as much damage as other blades but can be used in close quarters without penalty, and the hand axe is flexible for off-hand and throwing purposes and deals a lot of damage and is cheap.

 

[slaughterj]

Again it depends on the game, I pretty much curse buying power attack, I hardly ever use it.

And you don't need improved Feint to feint at all, it just makes it faster.

Regarding the lack of improved feint, I have yet to see any one try to feint without it. If you are in front of a foe and spend your action to feint, hoping to use the feint to hit next round, you are likely to fail to get any use out of it because:
1. the guy might get killed by someone else in the meantime
2. the guy might choose to go total defense to make him harder to hit
3. the guy might just whack you, the weak-ass thief, as he has an idea of what you are up to
4. the guy might withdraw back among his buddies, requiring you to pursue him through them and their AOOs just to get in your attack

And that's just off the top of my head.

 

[Bregales]

Well, aside from the weight of all those things jadrax carries, I don't think it's too bad.

In my various deedle dee experiences, fighter types often have 8 or more weapons, maybe three pole-arms, and I make a joke about them reaching behind, spinning the weapon pack until the desired weapon shows up (gesticulating spinning a wheel) and cry "a-ha!" :lol:

These weapons would be bulky but an experienced warrior would know how to carry them, and know when to drop them and hope he'll be able to go back and pick them up after a fight (aka: kill off all his enemies and have time to retrieve before leaving the scene).

Then again, IMO this game is about new experiences and starting things off en medias res, so what players have this game year probably won't be in their hands at the start of the next, or they may lose them along the way.

[edit] Oh by the way, the bardiche is a cool looking weapon. 8)

 

[Trodax]

I think it's bad to compare every player character to Conan. Conan is superhuman, a legendary hero by the time he wears the crown of Aquilonia. Just look at his stats, they are better than normal methods of character generation can provide. Just because Conan could kill a dozen Picts armed only with an apple put in a wet sock doesn't mean that everyone should be able to do the same. Carrying three weapons and a shield doesn't sound too bad to me - rather, it is a realistic arsenal, at least if there's a horse (or slave/squire) to carry some of the weight.

I at least like the idea of player characters being the "normal people" of Hyboria, at least in the beginning and perhaps becoming heroes later on, instead of being Conan-like supermen from the beginning.

I disagree. Conan for me is heroic sword & sorcery fantasy and the PC's should be thrown into the same high-octane adventures as in the books. Sure, Conan is a cut above the rest and not all character will become King of Aquilonia, but the PC's should be in the same league as the big man at least. As a player, I would hate to read the stories and come to the game just to find out that I was playing a lowly city-guard with only one leg and chronic pneumonia (for that type of gaming I have Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay :wink: ). So the "normal people" thing I really don't agree with.

As for the multiple equipment thing, I guess it not that unrealistic. Still, I can't shake the fact that I think the idea of a lone barbarian sneaking through a forgotten temple with nothing but a single broadsword is a lot more evocative than a guy in full-plate armor and with 15 backup swords strapped to his body. (OK, I'm exaggerating a tiny bit here )

 

[Majestic7]

Still, I can't shake the fact that I think the idea of a lone barbarian sneaking through a forgotten temple with nothing but a single broadsword is a lot more evocative than a guy in full-plate armor and with 15 backup swords strapped to his body. (OK, I'm exaggerating a tiny bit here )

Well, the reason the barbarian is sneaking through the temple is most likely that he has nothing but the loincloth and broadsword, a state of things he would like to change... I'm as a GM all for the players having a chance to enjoy their success both through good stories and accumulating loot. At the same time I'm just mercilessly waiting for a chance to snatch them away, should they stumble and fall. Actually, the campaign is at a such place right now. Details at the campaign report, coming soon, hehe.

What I'm saying is that the Conan RPG should provide ground for many different kinds of gaming without ruining the others. It should allow campaigns where all player characters are one-legged city guards, as well as those where they put Conan in to shame as epic heroes. It is the world that is great and there are many ways to enjoy it. Besides, the humbler the beginnings, the more epic the tale - think about the epic tale of one-legged men hunting for the fabled set of golden peglegs!

 

[slaughterj]

I think it's bad to compare every player character to Conan. Conan is superhuman, a legendary hero by the time he wears the crown of Aquilonia. Just look at his stats, they are better than normal methods of character generation can provide. Just because Conan could kill a dozen Picts armed only with an apple put in a wet sock doesn't mean that everyone should be able to do the same. Carrying three weapons and a shield doesn't sound too bad to me - rather, it is a realistic arsenal, at least if there's a horse (or slave/squire) to carry some of the weight.

I at least like the idea of player characters being the "normal people" of Hyboria, at least in the beginning and perhaps becoming heroes later on, instead of being Conan-like supermen from the beginning.

I disagree. Conan for me is heroic sword & sorcery fantasy and the PC's should be thrown into the same high-octane adventures as in the books. Sure, Conan is a cut above the rest and not all character will become King of Aquilonia, but the PC's should be in the same league as the big man at least. As a player, I would hate to read the stories and come to the game just to find out that I was playing a lowly city-guard with only one leg and chronic pneumonia (for that type of gaming I have Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay :wink: ). So the "normal people" thing I really don't agree with.

As for the multiple equipment thing, I guess it not that unrealistic. Still, I can't shake the fact that I think the idea of a lone barbarian sneaking through a forgotten temple with nothing but a single broadsword is a lot more evocative than a guy in full-plate armor and with 15 backup swords strapped to his body. (OK, I'm exaggerating a tiny bit here )

LOL! I'm with you on the visual, but sometimes this sort of conduct is hard to rein in, for a variety of reasons. One is the DnD background most have, and are used to consistently having large equipment lists. Another is the metagame worry about being unable to handle a situation, e.g., weapon sundered, cramped quarters, etc., and therefore the need arises to be a Swiss Army knife. I've found a related but different situation arise in playing Westerns RPGs, where you have a 6-gun or two to shoot with, but that empties quickly and reloading takes too much in-game time, so PCs will carry way too many extra pistols instead - kinda defeats the visual and feel/spirit of the game/genre.

 

[Sutek]

It is more evocative and all that, but you can't afford to do that at low levels. When you get up there high enough so you can afford that -5 hit to your attack rolls that a +5 damage bonus affords when using a broad sword two-handed, things start to shift.

As long as we're straying and talkign about what we like to run and play in a RPG fantasy game, I mentioned in another thread that carrying around a huge, two-handed weapon may end up being how a character's Reputation is played ("Oh crap - it's that dude who lops people's heads off with one swing of his might Bardiche!"), so that can be a factor. But by the same token, a big two-handed weapon is damned hard to hide. If you dont'want to be noticed, that multi-weapon kit isn't the best way to go.

But we're way off "should two-handed weapons be nerfed" at this point.