Should Moongose Publish an MRQ2 Megadungeon?
- Thread starter mallard
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RQ is a too deadly game system for mega dungeons. One single critical blow from a monster and a PC could be dead. Mega dungeons with dozens of fights in a row there would be a short challenge without heavy cheating from GM.
PCs are going to survive only small dungeons with a few levels and a few combats in one row. For surviving mega dungeons filled with deadly monsters and half a dozen levels like Tomb of Horror you need the massive HP buffer of DnD.
PCs are going to survive only small dungeons with a few levels and a few combats in one row. For surviving mega dungeons filled with deadly monsters and half a dozen levels like Tomb of Horror you need the massive HP buffer of DnD.
Enpeze said:
Agreed. That is why an RQ megadungeon would only be suitable for powerful characters. Snake Pipe Hollow, Dorastor and the Cradle scenario were also designed for powerful characters so there is a precedent for high powered scenarios.
No one in my group has died in my God Learner ruin so far and they have completed the first ring (equivalent of level) with 3 more to go. The closest anyone came was when the Yemailo rune priest made to much noise in an unstable room and caused a cave in. He was hit by 4 large rocks doing 1D8+2D6 damage each which nearly killed him. Fortunately there is a lot of stored POW in the party and a Chalana Arroy healer. However, his vrok hawk familiar is now deceased.
Hawk stew anyone?
There is a new game from Fantasy Flight (board game) which seems to be a lot of fun (there is much positive feedback so far for Dungeon Quest)...and there is a 15% survival rate. So a 'dungeon' scenario would be deadly? Good! I always enjoyed D&D in the old days up to level 5 or 6. I always enjoyed Stormbringer 1, TFT, and Warhammer FRP too. See a common thread? What is boring is having a character that can wade through legions of 'mooks' or fall fifty feet without a sweat. I say go for the big underground complex, preferably NOT in Glorantha. It would be refreshing to get back to the hobby as it was in the early days, when it was deadly and fun. Openquest captures that wild fun feeling very nicely, and RQII might as well.
I'd definitely buy a so-called 'megadungeon' for RQII, it would be great. Maybe even in Glorantha, although I will agree it might not 'feel right' in that setting. It probably should be more generic, as in Chaosium's Classic Fantasy.
I'd definitely buy a so-called 'megadungeon' for RQII, it would be great. Maybe even in Glorantha, although I will agree it might not 'feel right' in that setting. It probably should be more generic, as in Chaosium's Classic Fantasy.
Rasta said:If set in Glorantha, it would have to be done really well, and maybe don't call it a dungeon. Call it the caverns, or mostali ruins, or haunted crypt.
Real dungeons had like 10 rooms all on one level, the basement.
Rasta,
If semantics is the problem lets call the megadungeon an epic scenario to distinguish it from the run of the mill RQ scenario.
Interesting thread... but if talking is nice, action is more useful.
Mongoose Publishing told us that a mega-dungeon isn't the priority... so...
Why don't we set up a team of designers and build our own on some website?
If each designer is specialized in some specific topic or faction, it can go pretty fast and be pretty wicked.
We can have a couple of scenarists writing stories and links between areas, while other make sure it is RQ-like and realistic...
Ah I'm dreaming again :roll: :lol:
Mongoose Publishing told us that a mega-dungeon isn't the priority... so...
Why don't we set up a team of designers and build our own on some website?
If each designer is specialized in some specific topic or faction, it can go pretty fast and be pretty wicked.
We can have a couple of scenarists writing stories and links between areas, while other make sure it is RQ-like and realistic...
Ah I'm dreaming again :roll: :lol:
The really interesting thing is the lack of a Heroic Quest set in a megadungeon.
In Indoeuropean myths, labyrinths are a very typical location for heroic quests. There is one series of myths in particular which seems to be a perfect source for a quest. Those myths can be found, of course, in multiple versions:
Version 1: Theseus and Minotaur.
http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/M/Minos.html
The most ancient legends describe Minos as a just and wise law-giver, whereas the later accounts represent him as an unjust and cruel tyrant. (Philostr. Vit. Apoll. iii. 25; Catull. Epithal. Pel. 75; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 1699.) In order to avenge the wrong done to his son Androgeus at Athens, he made war against the Athenians and Megarians. He subdued Megara, and compelled the Athenians, either every year or every nine years, to send him as a tribute seven youths and seven maidens, who were devoured in the labyrinth by the Minotaurus
http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Minotauros.html
http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus3.html
[3.1.3] Asterius dying childless, Minos wished to reign over Crete, but his claim was opposed. So he alleged that he had received the kingdom from the gods, and in proof of it he said that whatever he prayed for would be done. And in sacrificing to Poseidon he prayed that a bull might appear from the depths, promising to sacrifice it when it appeared. Poseidon did send him up a fine bull, and Minos obtained the kingdom, but he sent the bull to the herds and sacrificed another.16 [Being the first to obtain the dominion of the sea, he extended his rule over almost all the islands.]17
[3.1.4] But angry at him for not sacrificing the bull, Poseidon made the animal savage, and contrived that Pasiphae should conceive a passion for it.18 In her love for the bull she found an accomplice in Daedalus, an architect, who had been banished from Athens for murder.19 He constructed a wooden cow on wheels, took it, hollowed it out in the inside, sewed it up in the hide of a cow which he had skinned, and set it in the meadow in which the bull used to graze. Then he introduced Pasiphae into it; and the bull came and coupled with it, as if it were a real cow. And she gave birth to Asterius, who was called the Minotaur. He had the face of a bull, but the rest of him was human; and Minos, in compliance with certain oracles, shut him up and guarded him in the Labyrinth. Now the Labyrinth which Daedalus constructed was a chamber “that with its tangled windings perplexed the outward way.”
(...)
(Aegeus) [3.15.7] And journeying by way of Troezen, he lodged with Pittheus, son of Pelops, who, understanding the oracle, made him drunk and caused him to lie with his daughter Aethra. But in the same night Poseidon also had connexion with her. Now Aegeus charged Aethra that, if she gave birth to a male child, she should rear it, without telling whose it was; and he left a sword and sandals under a certain rock, saying that when the boy could roll away the rock and take them up, she was then to send him away with them.
But he himself came to Athens and celebrated the games of the Panathenian festival, in which Androgeus, son of Minos, vanquished all comers. Him Aegeus sent against the bull of Marathon, by which he was destroyed. But some say that as he journeyed to Thebes to take part in the games in honor of Laius, he was waylaid and murdered by the jealous competitors.
(...)
[3.15.8] (Minos) being master of the sea, he attacked Athens with a fleet
(...) When the war lingered on and he could not take Athens, he prayed to Zeus that he might be avenged on the Athenians. And the city being visited with a famine and a pestilence, the Athenians at first, in obedience to an ancient oracle, slaughtered the daughters of Hyacinth, to wit, Antheis, Aegleis, Lytaea, and Orthaea, on the grave of Geraestus, the Cyclops; now Hyacinth, the father of the damsels, had come from Lacedaemon and dwelt in Athens.335 (The frequency of such legends, among which the traditional sacrifice of Iphigenia at Aulis may be included, suggests that formerly the Greeks used actually to sacrifice maidens in great emergencies, such as plagues and prolonged droughts, when ordinary sacrifices had proved ineffectual. ) But when this was of no avail, they inquired of the oracle how they could be delivered; and the god answered them that they should give Minos whatever satisfaction he might choose. So they sent to Minos and left it to him to claim satisfaction. And Minos ordered them to send seven youths and the same number of damsels without weapons to be fodder for the Minotaur. Now the Minotaur was confined in a labyrinth, in which he who entered could not find his way out; for many a winding turn shut off the secret outward way.The labyrinth was constructed by Daedalus,
(...)
[3.16.1] Aethra bore to Aegeus a son Theseus, and when he was grown up, he pushed away the rock and took up the sandals and the sword,341 and hastened on foot to Athens.
http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html
[E.1.7] And he was numbered among those who were to be sent as the third tribute to the Minotaur; or, as some affirm, he offered himself voluntarily.7 And as the ship had a black sail, Aegeus charged his son, if he returned alive, to spread white sails on the ship.8
[E.1.8] And when he came to Crete, Ariadne, daughter of Minos, being amorously disposed to him, offered to help him if he would agree to carry her away to Athens and have her to wife. Theseus having agreed on oath to do so, she besought Daedalus to disclose the way out of the labyrinth.
[E.1.9] And at his suggestion she gave Theseus a clue when he went in; Theseus fastened it to the door, and, drawing it after him, entered in.9 (...The clearest description of the clue, with which the amorous Ariadne furnished Theseus, is given by the Scholiasts and Eustathius on Homer l.c.. From them we learn that it was a ball of thread which Ariadne had begged of Daedalus for the use of her lover. He was to fasten one end of the thread to the lintel of the door on entering into the labyrinth, and holding the ball in his hand to unwind the skein while he penetrated deeper and deeper into the maze, till he found the Minotaur asleep in the inmost recess; then he was to catch the monster by the hair and sacrifice him to Poseidon; after which he was to retrace his steps, gathering up the thread behind him as he went. ... )
And having found the Minotaur in the last part of the labyrinth, he killed him by smiting him with his fists; and drawing the clue after him made his way out again. And by night he arrived with Ariadne and the children10 at Naxos. There Dionysus fell in love with Ariadne and carried her off11; and having brought her to Lemnos he enjoyed her, and begat Thoas, Staphylus, Oenopion, and Peparethus.12
[E.1.10] In his grief on account of Ariadne, Theseus forgot to spread white sails on his ship when he stood for port; and Aegeus, seeing from the acropolis the ship with a black sail, supposed that Theseus had perished; so he cast himself down and died.13
[E.1.11] But Theseus succeeded to the sovereignty of Athens, and killed the sons of Pallas, fifty in number14; likewise all who would oppose him were killed by him, and he got the whole government to himself.
[E.1.12] On being apprized of the flight of Theseus and his company, Minos shut up the guilty Daedalus in the labyrinth, along with his son Icarus, who had been borne to Daedalus by Naucrate, a female slave of Minos. But Daedalus constructed wings for himself and his son, and enjoined his son, when he took to flight, neither to fly high, lest the glue should melt in the sun and the wings should drop off, nor to fly near the sea, lest the pinions should be detached by the damp.
[E.1.13] But the infatuated Icarus, disregarding his father's injunctions, soared ever higher, till, the glue melting, he fell into the sea called after him Icarian, and perished.15 But Daedalus made his way safely to Camicus in Sicily. "
This well-known myth is apparently different from the following variants, but it contains several similarities:
- the hero is the son of a king, but lives in the region far from the capitol of the civilised world (Crete),
- the ruler of the world is originally good, but commits the sin of excessive pride and considers himself better than the gods,
- because of that, in capitol of the world there resides a monster,
- the world is afflicted by drought,
- the monster requires a tribute in virgins and young boys, whom he devours
- the monster is defeated at the center of its labyrinth
- the labyrinth seems to be subterranean, but one can escape from it only by flight.
- the good king, who ruled before the monster, becomes the ruler of the dead
2: Ancient Indian and Iranian dragon-myths
http://www.jnanam.net/indra/
http://bulfinch.englishatheist.org/iran/Iranian.htm
"Among the Indo-Iranians, the poetic imagination of the Vedic Indians has given the most complete description of the conflict in the storm-cloud. With his distinctive weapon, the vajra ("thunderbolt"), Indra slays the demon of drought called Vrtra ("Obstruction") or Ahi ("Serpent"). The fight is terrible, so that heaven and earth tremble with fear. Indra is said to have slain the dragon lying on the mountain and to have released the waters (clouds); and owing to this victory Indra is frequently called Vrtrahan ("Slayer of Vrtra"). The Veda also knows of another storm-contest, very similar to this one and often assigned to Indra, although it properly belongs to Trita, the son of Aptya. This mighty hero is likewise the slayer of a dragon, the three-headed, six-eyed serpent Visvarupa. He released the cows which the monster was hiding in a cavern, and this cave is also a cloud, because in his fight Trita, whose weapon is again the thunderbolt, is said to be rescued by the winds.(...)
In Iran (...) Trita, (...) is known as a beneficent hero, one of the first priests who prepared haoma (the Indian soma), 8 the plant of life, and as such he is called the first healer, the wise, the strong "who drove back sickness to sickness, death to death." (...)
Under the appellation of Thraetaona, son of Athwya (Sanskrit Aptya), another preparer of haoma, 11 he smote the dragon Azhi Dahaka, (...) Like the storm-gods and the bringers of fire, Thraetaona sometimes reveals himself in the shape of a bird, a vulture, 12 and later we shall see how, under the name of Faridun, he becomes an im portant hero in the Persian epic. His mythical nature appears clearly if one compares the storm-stories in the Veda with those in the Avesta. All essential features are the same on both sides. The myth of a conflict between a god of light or storm and a dragon assumes many shapes in Iran, although in its general outlines it is unchanging. In Thraetaona's struggle the victor was, as we have seen, connected with fire. Now fire itself, under the name of Atar, son of Ahura Mazda, is represented as having been in combat with the dragon Azhi Dahaka.
(...)
A tradition which dates from very ancient days represents Yima as diverging at a certain moment from the path of justice. He commits a fault, and from that instant he loses his Glory and his kingdom and finally is put to death, while a devilish being named Dahhak (the old Avestic dragon Azhi Dahaka) extends his power over the world of the Aryans.
As to the nature of Yima's sin some uncertainty prevails in the tradition. Nevertheless, there are certain hints that this fault consisted in having rendered his subjects immortal by giving them forbidden food to eat, and in the Gathss of Zoroaster the poet prays to Ahura Mazda in order to avoid such sins as that of Yima, who gave men meat to eat in small pieces, as it was offered to the gods in sacrifice. 24 A late book, on the other hand, relates that Yima unwittingly gave meat to a daeva, 24 although the most current form of the legend is that Yima
"In his mind began to dwell on Words of falsehood and of untruth." 25
Firdausi explains that Yima's lie was in reality a sin of presumption.
(...) (Yima says)
So now that ye perceive what I have done
All hail me as the Maker of the world. " 26
(...)
Whatever Yima's sin may have been, the king soon received his punishment, for the Glory (Khvarenanh), an emanation of divine radiancy that gave prestige to the Iranian monarchs, deserted him immediately and left him trembling, confounded, and defenceless before his foes. (...)
Yima, deprived of the Glory that made his power, was over come by a being of decidedly mythical nature, the famous serpent Azhi Dahaka, whom we have seen to be an incarnation of the storm-cloud. (...) in the Avesta itself we read that Azhi Dahaka, the triple-mouthed, offered sacrifice to Ardvi Sura in the land of Bawri (Babylon), wishing to become the ruler of the world and to make the seven regions of earth empty of men. Although his prayer was not granted to such an extent, he overcame Yima and made captives of his two sisters, Sanghavak and Arenavak. (...)
The story of Yima is the most interesting and the only extensive myth of the Iranians, and it is certain that the legend dates back to Aryan, or at least to Indo-Iranian, times.
As the Avesta knows of Yima, son of Vivanghvant, so the Veda speaks of Yama, son of Vivasvant. (...) In spite of these points in common, there is an important discrepancy. Yama is the first mortal being and is clearly associated with death and with a kingdom of the departed, whereas Yima is simply a monarch of ancient times, his reign is a golden age for mankind,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak
(...)
Ahriman now took another guise, and presented himself to Zahh?k as a marvellous cook. After he had presented Zahh?k with many days of sumptuous feasts, Zahh?k was willing to give Ahriman whatever he wanted. Ahriman merely asked to kiss Zahh?k on his two shoulders. Zahh?k permitted this; but when Ahriman had touched his lips to Zahh?k's shoulders, he immediately vanished. At once, two black snakes grew out of Zahh?k's shoulders. They could not be surgically removed, for as soon as one snake-head had been cut off, another took its place.
Ahriman now appeared to Zahh?k in the form of a skilled physician. He counselled Zahh?k that the only remedy was to let the snakes remain on his shoulders, and sate their hunger by supplying them with human brains for food every day otherwise the snakes will feed on his own.
(...) when Zahhak is defeated by Fereydun, he cannot think of a better fitting punishment than to simply bound him in cave where the snakes (not being fed) will eat Zahhak's own brain (...)
This story is Ferdowsi's way of reconciling the descriptions of Dah?g as a three-headed dragon monster and those stories which treat him as a human king. According to Ferdowsi, Zahh?k is originally human, but through the magic of Ahriman he becomes a monster; he does, in fact, have three heads, the two snake heads and one human head; and the snakes remind us of his original character as a dragon.
(...)
About this time, Jamshid (Yima), who was then the ruler of the world, through his arrogance lost his divine right to rule. Zahh?k presented himself as a savior to those discontented Iranians who wanted a new ruler (...) Collecting a great army, he marched against Jamshid, who fled when he saw that he could not resist Zahh?k. Zahh?k hunted Jamshid for many years, and at last caught him and subjected him to a miserable death -- he had Jamshid sawn in half. Zahh?k now became the ruler of the entire world. Among his slaves were two of Jamshid's daughters, Arnav?z and Shahrnav?z (the Avestan Ar?nav?ci and Sava?hav?ci).
Zahh?k's two snake heads still craved human brains for food, so every day Zahh?k's spies would seize two men, and execute them so their brains could feed the snakes. (...)
Zahh?k's tyranny over the world lasted for centuries. But one day Zahh?k had a terrible dream – he thought that three warriors were attacking him, and that the youngest knocked him down with his mace, tied him up, and dragged him off toward a tall mountain. When Zahh?k woke he was in a panic. Following the counsel of Arnav?z, he summoned wise men and dream-readers to explain his dream. They were reluctant to say anything, but one finally said that it was a vision of the end of Zahh?k's reign, that rebels would arise and dispossess Zahh?k of his throne. He even named the man who would take Zahh?k's place: Fereydun.
Zahh?k now became obsessed with finding this "Fereydun" and destroying him, though he did not know where he lived or who his family was. His spies went everywhere looking for Fereydun, and finally heard that he was but a boy, being nourished on the milk of the marvelous cow Barm?yeh. The spies traced Barm?yeh to the highland meadows where it grazed, but Fereydun had already fled before them. They killed the cow, but had to return to Zahh?k with their mission unfulfilled.
Zahh?k now tried to consolidate his rule by coercing an assembly of the leading men of the kingdom into signing a document testifying to Zahh?k's righteousness, so that no one could have any excuse for rebellion. One man spoke out against this charade, a blacksmith named K?va (Kaveh). Before the whole assembly, K?va told how Zahh?k's minions had murdered seventeen of his eighteen sons so that Zahh?k might feed his snakes' lust for human brains – the last son had been imprisoned, but still lived.
In front of the assembly Zahh?k had to pretend to be merciful, and so released K?va's son. But when he tried to get K?va to sign the document attesting to Zahh?k's justice, K?va tore up the document, left the court, and raised his blacksmith's apron as a standard of rebellion – the K?viy?ni Banner, He proclaimed himself in support of Fereydun as ruler.
Soon many people followed K?va to the Alborz mountains, where Fereydun was now living. He was now a young man and agreed to lead the people against Zahh?k. He had a mace made for him with a head like that of an ox, and with his brothers and followers, went forth to fight against Zahh?k. Zahh?k had already left his capital, and it fell to Fereydun with small resistance. Fereydun freed all of Zahh?k's prisoners, including Arnav?z and Shahrnav?z.
Kondrow, Zahh?k's treasurer, pretended to submit to Fereydun, but when he had a chance he escaped to Zahh?k and told him what had happened. Zahh?k at first dismissed the matter, but when he heard that Fereydun had seated Jamshid's daughters on thrones beside him like his queens, he was incensed and immediately hastened back to his city to attack Fereydun.
When he got there, Zahh?k found his capital held strongly against him, and his army was in peril from the defense of the city. Seeing that he could not reduce the city, he sneaked into his own palace as a spy, and attempted to assassinate Arnav?z and Shahrnav?z. Fereydun struck Zahh?k down with his ox-headed mace, but did not kill him; on the advice of an angel, he bound Zahh?k and imprisoned him in a cave underneath Mount Dam?vand, binding him with a lion's pelt tied to great nails fixed into the walls of the cavern, where he will remain until the end of the world. Thus, after a thousand years' tyranny, ended the reign of Zahh?k.
http://bulfinch.englishatheist.org/iran/Iranian.htm
"After the dream which we have already mentioned Dahhak runs about the world, quarrelling and slaughtering men and nations to anticipate the attack of him who is to satisfy the popular conscience by causing his ruin. He has an army of spies, among them being Kundrav, a very ancient mythical creature of the Indo-Iranians (Sanskrit Gandharva, Avesta Gandarewa), who appears in the Avesta as a dragon killed by Keresaspa."
"He conveyed the captive to Mount Damavand, where he fettered him in a narrow gorge and studded him with heavy nails, leaving him to hang, bound by his hands, to a crag, so that his anguish might endure. He is not killed by the hero because in myth the storm-dragon does not die, but often escapes from the hold of the light-god."
http://www.iranica.com/articles/azdaha-dragon-various-kinds
"The D?nkard (9.21.8-10) relates how Fr?d?n first struck Dah?g with his club upon the shoulder (fr?g), the heart, and the skull, without killing him, and that he then hewed him with a sword three times, which caused the body of Dah?g to turn into (gaštan) various noxious creatures. Seeing this Ohrmazd told Fr?d?n not to cut Dah?g so that the world should not become flooded with reptiles and other noxious creatures "
A more modern version of the myth can be found here:
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Mythology/simorgh_story.htm
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Mythology/simorgh_senmurv.htm
An explanation of various versions of the myth:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_2_112/ai_79548473/
Prince Mohammad, Fereydun, Thraetaona, and Trita Aptya: Themes and Connections in Persian Narratives
Folklore, Oct, 2001 by Mehri Bagheri
There is a well-known Persian folktale that is transmitted in many versions, not only in Iran, but also in neighbouring countries. It is known as "The Tale of Prince Mohammad." More than twenty versions of this tale have been recorded by Persian folklorists, sometimes under alternative titles such as "The Tale of the Apple Orchard," "The Apple Tree and the Dev," or "Prince Djamshid's Tale." From these different versions, something like a central framework can be reconstructed.
The hero, usually called Malik Mohammad, is the youngest of three brothers whose father, an ageing king, has a wondrous, life-giving tree of golden apples in his garden. Night after night, a monstrous demon enters the garden and steals the fruit. The two older brothers fail to ward off the predator, but the youngest keeps watch and succeeds in cutting off the monster's arm. The next day, the brothers track the monster to a well, following a trail of blood. Again, only the youngest is brave enough to descend into the well, which, like hell itself, is filled with burning vapours. Once in the well, he successively attacks and slays three dragons, each of which lives with a captive maiden in its own underground room, house, or castle. He frees the maidens and the elder brothers pull them up to safety, but when the youngest brother starts climbing the rope, they cut it and he is plunged into the abyss. He lands on the back of one of two rams which are fighting in the pit and is thrown even deeper into that dark world.
An episode follows in which the hero finds his way to a city which has been laid waste by a dragon which has cut off the water supply by damming the stream. In order to get water, each year the citizens sacrifice a maiden to the dragon; while he is devouring her, they are able to set the waters free. The hero slays the dragon and releases the waters. He is finally brought home to the world of light and to his father's kingdom by the mythical King of the Birds, Simorq. Once there, he punishes his two brothers and marries the most beautiful of the three maidens.
One of the many points of interest in this complex tale is its resemblance to the Vedic myth of the semi-divine hero Trita Aptya, and epic versions of the myth to be found in the Avesta and the Shahname, the Iranian national epic. (In the Rigveda, the name of the hero is Trita Aptya; in the Avesta he is called Thrita or Thraetaona Athwiya, and in the Iranian national epic he appears as Fereydun.)
Rigveda scholars have greatly exercised their imaginations to explain Trita Aptya's place in Vedic myth. He has variously been described as: a deity of the bright sky (Hillebrandt 1965); a god of the storm and "older than Indra" (Perry 1882); a water and wind god (Roth 1848); a god of lightning (Macdonell 1974); a moon god (Hardy 1893); and Pischel formerly regarded him as a god of the sea, and latterly has expressed the opinion that he was originally a human healer who was later deified.
The Vedic evidence that has been collected and interpreted with scholarly thoroughness by K. Ronnow in his treatise, "Trita Aptya; eine vedische Gottheit," perhaps points to the conclusion that he was originally a divine hero, a dragon-slayer, and associated with water and the purifying powers of water.
Among the characteristics of Trita Aptya's myth, we should note such motifs as:
* his position as the third of three brothers;
* his betrayal by his brothers, which leads to--
* his captivity in a pit or well;
* his victory over a three-headed, six-eyed demon;
* and the subsequent release of some captive cows after the slaughter of the demon.
In Iranian mythology, we find Trita Aptya split into two rather distinct personages: one is Thrita, a mythical sacrificer and healer, who seems to represent the priestly side of the Vedic Trita Aptya; the other is Thraetaona, a hero-king, who is the representative of the ancient god's heroic function. In Persian epic Thraetaona becomes King Fereydun.
In the Iranian tradition, the story retains features from the Vedic myth. In the Avesta, Thraetaona slays the three-headed, three-mouthed, six-eyed dragon, Azi Dahaka. After overcoming the dragon, he releases and carries away his two wives whom the dragon had abducted. In Iranian tradition, Thraetaona is provided with two envious older brothers. In the Iranian tradition, too, according to the Shahname, Fereydun was accompanied in his expedition against Zahhak (= Azi Dahaka) by two brothers who enviously sought to kill him. A comparison of the Iranian and Indian data suggests that two of the most prominent features in the myth of Trita Aptya/Thraetaona Athwiya were his slaughter of a three-headed dragon or demon, and his position as the "third one" whose two elder brothers envied him and tried to kill him by abandoning him in a well.
The similarities between the Indo-Iranian myths and epics on the one hand, and the Persian folk tale on the other, suggest themselves at once:
* the position of the hero as the youngest of three brothers;
* the betrayal of the hero;
* the abandoning of the hero in an underground world;
* his single-handed victory over dragons/demons in an underground well;
* the chthonic nature of the demon's abode;
* the connection with water;
* the release of captives (water/maidens; cows/water/wives).
The similarities do not permit them to be considered as autonomous structures articulated independently in different narrative traditions, but it is less easy, perhaps, to be sure what the relationship between folktale and myth is in this case. The obvious interpretation is that the folktale is the folkloric remains of the old myth.
However, it is possible to take the opposite view, and argue that important sequences of both myth and folktale can be traced to the well-defined and recurring patterns of a familiar Indo-European folktale type, "The Bear's Son." As we know, some scholars have suggested that the English epic Beowulf, too, has its origin in the crude substance of this folktale.
http://rbedrosian.com/ananik6.htm
Armenian Mythology
by Mardiros H. Ananikian
In Indoeuropean myths, labyrinths are a very typical location for heroic quests. There is one series of myths in particular which seems to be a perfect source for a quest. Those myths can be found, of course, in multiple versions:
Version 1: Theseus and Minotaur.
http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/M/Minos.html
The most ancient legends describe Minos as a just and wise law-giver, whereas the later accounts represent him as an unjust and cruel tyrant. (Philostr. Vit. Apoll. iii. 25; Catull. Epithal. Pel. 75; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 1699.) In order to avenge the wrong done to his son Androgeus at Athens, he made war against the Athenians and Megarians. He subdued Megara, and compelled the Athenians, either every year or every nine years, to send him as a tribute seven youths and seven maidens, who were devoured in the labyrinth by the Minotaurus
http://www.theoi.com/Ther/Minotauros.html
http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus3.html
[3.1.3] Asterius dying childless, Minos wished to reign over Crete, but his claim was opposed. So he alleged that he had received the kingdom from the gods, and in proof of it he said that whatever he prayed for would be done. And in sacrificing to Poseidon he prayed that a bull might appear from the depths, promising to sacrifice it when it appeared. Poseidon did send him up a fine bull, and Minos obtained the kingdom, but he sent the bull to the herds and sacrificed another.16 [Being the first to obtain the dominion of the sea, he extended his rule over almost all the islands.]17
[3.1.4] But angry at him for not sacrificing the bull, Poseidon made the animal savage, and contrived that Pasiphae should conceive a passion for it.18 In her love for the bull she found an accomplice in Daedalus, an architect, who had been banished from Athens for murder.19 He constructed a wooden cow on wheels, took it, hollowed it out in the inside, sewed it up in the hide of a cow which he had skinned, and set it in the meadow in which the bull used to graze. Then he introduced Pasiphae into it; and the bull came and coupled with it, as if it were a real cow. And she gave birth to Asterius, who was called the Minotaur. He had the face of a bull, but the rest of him was human; and Minos, in compliance with certain oracles, shut him up and guarded him in the Labyrinth. Now the Labyrinth which Daedalus constructed was a chamber “that with its tangled windings perplexed the outward way.”
(...)
(Aegeus) [3.15.7] And journeying by way of Troezen, he lodged with Pittheus, son of Pelops, who, understanding the oracle, made him drunk and caused him to lie with his daughter Aethra. But in the same night Poseidon also had connexion with her. Now Aegeus charged Aethra that, if she gave birth to a male child, she should rear it, without telling whose it was; and he left a sword and sandals under a certain rock, saying that when the boy could roll away the rock and take them up, she was then to send him away with them.
But he himself came to Athens and celebrated the games of the Panathenian festival, in which Androgeus, son of Minos, vanquished all comers. Him Aegeus sent against the bull of Marathon, by which he was destroyed. But some say that as he journeyed to Thebes to take part in the games in honor of Laius, he was waylaid and murdered by the jealous competitors.
(...)
[3.15.8] (Minos) being master of the sea, he attacked Athens with a fleet
(...) When the war lingered on and he could not take Athens, he prayed to Zeus that he might be avenged on the Athenians. And the city being visited with a famine and a pestilence, the Athenians at first, in obedience to an ancient oracle, slaughtered the daughters of Hyacinth, to wit, Antheis, Aegleis, Lytaea, and Orthaea, on the grave of Geraestus, the Cyclops; now Hyacinth, the father of the damsels, had come from Lacedaemon and dwelt in Athens.335 (The frequency of such legends, among which the traditional sacrifice of Iphigenia at Aulis may be included, suggests that formerly the Greeks used actually to sacrifice maidens in great emergencies, such as plagues and prolonged droughts, when ordinary sacrifices had proved ineffectual. ) But when this was of no avail, they inquired of the oracle how they could be delivered; and the god answered them that they should give Minos whatever satisfaction he might choose. So they sent to Minos and left it to him to claim satisfaction. And Minos ordered them to send seven youths and the same number of damsels without weapons to be fodder for the Minotaur. Now the Minotaur was confined in a labyrinth, in which he who entered could not find his way out; for many a winding turn shut off the secret outward way.The labyrinth was constructed by Daedalus,
(...)
[3.16.1] Aethra bore to Aegeus a son Theseus, and when he was grown up, he pushed away the rock and took up the sandals and the sword,341 and hastened on foot to Athens.
http://www.theoi.com/Text/ApollodorusE.html
[E.1.7] And he was numbered among those who were to be sent as the third tribute to the Minotaur; or, as some affirm, he offered himself voluntarily.7 And as the ship had a black sail, Aegeus charged his son, if he returned alive, to spread white sails on the ship.8
[E.1.8] And when he came to Crete, Ariadne, daughter of Minos, being amorously disposed to him, offered to help him if he would agree to carry her away to Athens and have her to wife. Theseus having agreed on oath to do so, she besought Daedalus to disclose the way out of the labyrinth.
[E.1.9] And at his suggestion she gave Theseus a clue when he went in; Theseus fastened it to the door, and, drawing it after him, entered in.9 (...The clearest description of the clue, with which the amorous Ariadne furnished Theseus, is given by the Scholiasts and Eustathius on Homer l.c.. From them we learn that it was a ball of thread which Ariadne had begged of Daedalus for the use of her lover. He was to fasten one end of the thread to the lintel of the door on entering into the labyrinth, and holding the ball in his hand to unwind the skein while he penetrated deeper and deeper into the maze, till he found the Minotaur asleep in the inmost recess; then he was to catch the monster by the hair and sacrifice him to Poseidon; after which he was to retrace his steps, gathering up the thread behind him as he went. ... )
And having found the Minotaur in the last part of the labyrinth, he killed him by smiting him with his fists; and drawing the clue after him made his way out again. And by night he arrived with Ariadne and the children10 at Naxos. There Dionysus fell in love with Ariadne and carried her off11; and having brought her to Lemnos he enjoyed her, and begat Thoas, Staphylus, Oenopion, and Peparethus.12
[E.1.10] In his grief on account of Ariadne, Theseus forgot to spread white sails on his ship when he stood for port; and Aegeus, seeing from the acropolis the ship with a black sail, supposed that Theseus had perished; so he cast himself down and died.13
[E.1.11] But Theseus succeeded to the sovereignty of Athens, and killed the sons of Pallas, fifty in number14; likewise all who would oppose him were killed by him, and he got the whole government to himself.
[E.1.12] On being apprized of the flight of Theseus and his company, Minos shut up the guilty Daedalus in the labyrinth, along with his son Icarus, who had been borne to Daedalus by Naucrate, a female slave of Minos. But Daedalus constructed wings for himself and his son, and enjoined his son, when he took to flight, neither to fly high, lest the glue should melt in the sun and the wings should drop off, nor to fly near the sea, lest the pinions should be detached by the damp.
[E.1.13] But the infatuated Icarus, disregarding his father's injunctions, soared ever higher, till, the glue melting, he fell into the sea called after him Icarian, and perished.15 But Daedalus made his way safely to Camicus in Sicily. "
This well-known myth is apparently different from the following variants, but it contains several similarities:
- the hero is the son of a king, but lives in the region far from the capitol of the civilised world (Crete),
- the ruler of the world is originally good, but commits the sin of excessive pride and considers himself better than the gods,
- because of that, in capitol of the world there resides a monster,
- the world is afflicted by drought,
- the monster requires a tribute in virgins and young boys, whom he devours
- the monster is defeated at the center of its labyrinth
- the labyrinth seems to be subterranean, but one can escape from it only by flight.
- the good king, who ruled before the monster, becomes the ruler of the dead
2: Ancient Indian and Iranian dragon-myths
http://www.jnanam.net/indra/
http://bulfinch.englishatheist.org/iran/Iranian.htm
"Among the Indo-Iranians, the poetic imagination of the Vedic Indians has given the most complete description of the conflict in the storm-cloud. With his distinctive weapon, the vajra ("thunderbolt"), Indra slays the demon of drought called Vrtra ("Obstruction") or Ahi ("Serpent"). The fight is terrible, so that heaven and earth tremble with fear. Indra is said to have slain the dragon lying on the mountain and to have released the waters (clouds); and owing to this victory Indra is frequently called Vrtrahan ("Slayer of Vrtra"). The Veda also knows of another storm-contest, very similar to this one and often assigned to Indra, although it properly belongs to Trita, the son of Aptya. This mighty hero is likewise the slayer of a dragon, the three-headed, six-eyed serpent Visvarupa. He released the cows which the monster was hiding in a cavern, and this cave is also a cloud, because in his fight Trita, whose weapon is again the thunderbolt, is said to be rescued by the winds.(...)
In Iran (...) Trita, (...) is known as a beneficent hero, one of the first priests who prepared haoma (the Indian soma), 8 the plant of life, and as such he is called the first healer, the wise, the strong "who drove back sickness to sickness, death to death." (...)
Under the appellation of Thraetaona, son of Athwya (Sanskrit Aptya), another preparer of haoma, 11 he smote the dragon Azhi Dahaka, (...) Like the storm-gods and the bringers of fire, Thraetaona sometimes reveals himself in the shape of a bird, a vulture, 12 and later we shall see how, under the name of Faridun, he becomes an im portant hero in the Persian epic. His mythical nature appears clearly if one compares the storm-stories in the Veda with those in the Avesta. All essential features are the same on both sides. The myth of a conflict between a god of light or storm and a dragon assumes many shapes in Iran, although in its general outlines it is unchanging. In Thraetaona's struggle the victor was, as we have seen, connected with fire. Now fire itself, under the name of Atar, son of Ahura Mazda, is represented as having been in combat with the dragon Azhi Dahaka.
(...)
A tradition which dates from very ancient days represents Yima as diverging at a certain moment from the path of justice. He commits a fault, and from that instant he loses his Glory and his kingdom and finally is put to death, while a devilish being named Dahhak (the old Avestic dragon Azhi Dahaka) extends his power over the world of the Aryans.
As to the nature of Yima's sin some uncertainty prevails in the tradition. Nevertheless, there are certain hints that this fault consisted in having rendered his subjects immortal by giving them forbidden food to eat, and in the Gathss of Zoroaster the poet prays to Ahura Mazda in order to avoid such sins as that of Yima, who gave men meat to eat in small pieces, as it was offered to the gods in sacrifice. 24 A late book, on the other hand, relates that Yima unwittingly gave meat to a daeva, 24 although the most current form of the legend is that Yima
"In his mind began to dwell on Words of falsehood and of untruth." 25
Firdausi explains that Yima's lie was in reality a sin of presumption.
(...) (Yima says)
So now that ye perceive what I have done
All hail me as the Maker of the world. " 26
(...)
Whatever Yima's sin may have been, the king soon received his punishment, for the Glory (Khvarenanh), an emanation of divine radiancy that gave prestige to the Iranian monarchs, deserted him immediately and left him trembling, confounded, and defenceless before his foes. (...)
Yima, deprived of the Glory that made his power, was over come by a being of decidedly mythical nature, the famous serpent Azhi Dahaka, whom we have seen to be an incarnation of the storm-cloud. (...) in the Avesta itself we read that Azhi Dahaka, the triple-mouthed, offered sacrifice to Ardvi Sura in the land of Bawri (Babylon), wishing to become the ruler of the world and to make the seven regions of earth empty of men. Although his prayer was not granted to such an extent, he overcame Yima and made captives of his two sisters, Sanghavak and Arenavak. (...)
The story of Yima is the most interesting and the only extensive myth of the Iranians, and it is certain that the legend dates back to Aryan, or at least to Indo-Iranian, times.
As the Avesta knows of Yima, son of Vivanghvant, so the Veda speaks of Yama, son of Vivasvant. (...) In spite of these points in common, there is an important discrepancy. Yama is the first mortal being and is clearly associated with death and with a kingdom of the departed, whereas Yima is simply a monarch of ancient times, his reign is a golden age for mankind,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak
(...)
Ahriman now took another guise, and presented himself to Zahh?k as a marvellous cook. After he had presented Zahh?k with many days of sumptuous feasts, Zahh?k was willing to give Ahriman whatever he wanted. Ahriman merely asked to kiss Zahh?k on his two shoulders. Zahh?k permitted this; but when Ahriman had touched his lips to Zahh?k's shoulders, he immediately vanished. At once, two black snakes grew out of Zahh?k's shoulders. They could not be surgically removed, for as soon as one snake-head had been cut off, another took its place.
Ahriman now appeared to Zahh?k in the form of a skilled physician. He counselled Zahh?k that the only remedy was to let the snakes remain on his shoulders, and sate their hunger by supplying them with human brains for food every day otherwise the snakes will feed on his own.
(...) when Zahhak is defeated by Fereydun, he cannot think of a better fitting punishment than to simply bound him in cave where the snakes (not being fed) will eat Zahhak's own brain (...)
This story is Ferdowsi's way of reconciling the descriptions of Dah?g as a three-headed dragon monster and those stories which treat him as a human king. According to Ferdowsi, Zahh?k is originally human, but through the magic of Ahriman he becomes a monster; he does, in fact, have three heads, the two snake heads and one human head; and the snakes remind us of his original character as a dragon.
(...)
About this time, Jamshid (Yima), who was then the ruler of the world, through his arrogance lost his divine right to rule. Zahh?k presented himself as a savior to those discontented Iranians who wanted a new ruler (...) Collecting a great army, he marched against Jamshid, who fled when he saw that he could not resist Zahh?k. Zahh?k hunted Jamshid for many years, and at last caught him and subjected him to a miserable death -- he had Jamshid sawn in half. Zahh?k now became the ruler of the entire world. Among his slaves were two of Jamshid's daughters, Arnav?z and Shahrnav?z (the Avestan Ar?nav?ci and Sava?hav?ci).
Zahh?k's two snake heads still craved human brains for food, so every day Zahh?k's spies would seize two men, and execute them so their brains could feed the snakes. (...)
Zahh?k's tyranny over the world lasted for centuries. But one day Zahh?k had a terrible dream – he thought that three warriors were attacking him, and that the youngest knocked him down with his mace, tied him up, and dragged him off toward a tall mountain. When Zahh?k woke he was in a panic. Following the counsel of Arnav?z, he summoned wise men and dream-readers to explain his dream. They were reluctant to say anything, but one finally said that it was a vision of the end of Zahh?k's reign, that rebels would arise and dispossess Zahh?k of his throne. He even named the man who would take Zahh?k's place: Fereydun.
Zahh?k now became obsessed with finding this "Fereydun" and destroying him, though he did not know where he lived or who his family was. His spies went everywhere looking for Fereydun, and finally heard that he was but a boy, being nourished on the milk of the marvelous cow Barm?yeh. The spies traced Barm?yeh to the highland meadows where it grazed, but Fereydun had already fled before them. They killed the cow, but had to return to Zahh?k with their mission unfulfilled.
Zahh?k now tried to consolidate his rule by coercing an assembly of the leading men of the kingdom into signing a document testifying to Zahh?k's righteousness, so that no one could have any excuse for rebellion. One man spoke out against this charade, a blacksmith named K?va (Kaveh). Before the whole assembly, K?va told how Zahh?k's minions had murdered seventeen of his eighteen sons so that Zahh?k might feed his snakes' lust for human brains – the last son had been imprisoned, but still lived.
In front of the assembly Zahh?k had to pretend to be merciful, and so released K?va's son. But when he tried to get K?va to sign the document attesting to Zahh?k's justice, K?va tore up the document, left the court, and raised his blacksmith's apron as a standard of rebellion – the K?viy?ni Banner, He proclaimed himself in support of Fereydun as ruler.
Soon many people followed K?va to the Alborz mountains, where Fereydun was now living. He was now a young man and agreed to lead the people against Zahh?k. He had a mace made for him with a head like that of an ox, and with his brothers and followers, went forth to fight against Zahh?k. Zahh?k had already left his capital, and it fell to Fereydun with small resistance. Fereydun freed all of Zahh?k's prisoners, including Arnav?z and Shahrnav?z.
Kondrow, Zahh?k's treasurer, pretended to submit to Fereydun, but when he had a chance he escaped to Zahh?k and told him what had happened. Zahh?k at first dismissed the matter, but when he heard that Fereydun had seated Jamshid's daughters on thrones beside him like his queens, he was incensed and immediately hastened back to his city to attack Fereydun.
When he got there, Zahh?k found his capital held strongly against him, and his army was in peril from the defense of the city. Seeing that he could not reduce the city, he sneaked into his own palace as a spy, and attempted to assassinate Arnav?z and Shahrnav?z. Fereydun struck Zahh?k down with his ox-headed mace, but did not kill him; on the advice of an angel, he bound Zahh?k and imprisoned him in a cave underneath Mount Dam?vand, binding him with a lion's pelt tied to great nails fixed into the walls of the cavern, where he will remain until the end of the world. Thus, after a thousand years' tyranny, ended the reign of Zahh?k.
http://bulfinch.englishatheist.org/iran/Iranian.htm
"After the dream which we have already mentioned Dahhak runs about the world, quarrelling and slaughtering men and nations to anticipate the attack of him who is to satisfy the popular conscience by causing his ruin. He has an army of spies, among them being Kundrav, a very ancient mythical creature of the Indo-Iranians (Sanskrit Gandharva, Avesta Gandarewa), who appears in the Avesta as a dragon killed by Keresaspa."
"He conveyed the captive to Mount Damavand, where he fettered him in a narrow gorge and studded him with heavy nails, leaving him to hang, bound by his hands, to a crag, so that his anguish might endure. He is not killed by the hero because in myth the storm-dragon does not die, but often escapes from the hold of the light-god."
http://www.iranica.com/articles/azdaha-dragon-various-kinds
"The D?nkard (9.21.8-10) relates how Fr?d?n first struck Dah?g with his club upon the shoulder (fr?g), the heart, and the skull, without killing him, and that he then hewed him with a sword three times, which caused the body of Dah?g to turn into (gaštan) various noxious creatures. Seeing this Ohrmazd told Fr?d?n not to cut Dah?g so that the world should not become flooded with reptiles and other noxious creatures "
A more modern version of the myth can be found here:
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Mythology/simorgh_story.htm
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Mythology/simorgh_senmurv.htm
An explanation of various versions of the myth:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_2_112/ai_79548473/
Prince Mohammad, Fereydun, Thraetaona, and Trita Aptya: Themes and Connections in Persian Narratives
Folklore, Oct, 2001 by Mehri Bagheri
There is a well-known Persian folktale that is transmitted in many versions, not only in Iran, but also in neighbouring countries. It is known as "The Tale of Prince Mohammad." More than twenty versions of this tale have been recorded by Persian folklorists, sometimes under alternative titles such as "The Tale of the Apple Orchard," "The Apple Tree and the Dev," or "Prince Djamshid's Tale." From these different versions, something like a central framework can be reconstructed.
The hero, usually called Malik Mohammad, is the youngest of three brothers whose father, an ageing king, has a wondrous, life-giving tree of golden apples in his garden. Night after night, a monstrous demon enters the garden and steals the fruit. The two older brothers fail to ward off the predator, but the youngest keeps watch and succeeds in cutting off the monster's arm. The next day, the brothers track the monster to a well, following a trail of blood. Again, only the youngest is brave enough to descend into the well, which, like hell itself, is filled with burning vapours. Once in the well, he successively attacks and slays three dragons, each of which lives with a captive maiden in its own underground room, house, or castle. He frees the maidens and the elder brothers pull them up to safety, but when the youngest brother starts climbing the rope, they cut it and he is plunged into the abyss. He lands on the back of one of two rams which are fighting in the pit and is thrown even deeper into that dark world.
An episode follows in which the hero finds his way to a city which has been laid waste by a dragon which has cut off the water supply by damming the stream. In order to get water, each year the citizens sacrifice a maiden to the dragon; while he is devouring her, they are able to set the waters free. The hero slays the dragon and releases the waters. He is finally brought home to the world of light and to his father's kingdom by the mythical King of the Birds, Simorq. Once there, he punishes his two brothers and marries the most beautiful of the three maidens.
One of the many points of interest in this complex tale is its resemblance to the Vedic myth of the semi-divine hero Trita Aptya, and epic versions of the myth to be found in the Avesta and the Shahname, the Iranian national epic. (In the Rigveda, the name of the hero is Trita Aptya; in the Avesta he is called Thrita or Thraetaona Athwiya, and in the Iranian national epic he appears as Fereydun.)
Rigveda scholars have greatly exercised their imaginations to explain Trita Aptya's place in Vedic myth. He has variously been described as: a deity of the bright sky (Hillebrandt 1965); a god of the storm and "older than Indra" (Perry 1882); a water and wind god (Roth 1848); a god of lightning (Macdonell 1974); a moon god (Hardy 1893); and Pischel formerly regarded him as a god of the sea, and latterly has expressed the opinion that he was originally a human healer who was later deified.
The Vedic evidence that has been collected and interpreted with scholarly thoroughness by K. Ronnow in his treatise, "Trita Aptya; eine vedische Gottheit," perhaps points to the conclusion that he was originally a divine hero, a dragon-slayer, and associated with water and the purifying powers of water.
Among the characteristics of Trita Aptya's myth, we should note such motifs as:
* his position as the third of three brothers;
* his betrayal by his brothers, which leads to--
* his captivity in a pit or well;
* his victory over a three-headed, six-eyed demon;
* and the subsequent release of some captive cows after the slaughter of the demon.
In Iranian mythology, we find Trita Aptya split into two rather distinct personages: one is Thrita, a mythical sacrificer and healer, who seems to represent the priestly side of the Vedic Trita Aptya; the other is Thraetaona, a hero-king, who is the representative of the ancient god's heroic function. In Persian epic Thraetaona becomes King Fereydun.
In the Iranian tradition, the story retains features from the Vedic myth. In the Avesta, Thraetaona slays the three-headed, three-mouthed, six-eyed dragon, Azi Dahaka. After overcoming the dragon, he releases and carries away his two wives whom the dragon had abducted. In Iranian tradition, Thraetaona is provided with two envious older brothers. In the Iranian tradition, too, according to the Shahname, Fereydun was accompanied in his expedition against Zahhak (= Azi Dahaka) by two brothers who enviously sought to kill him. A comparison of the Iranian and Indian data suggests that two of the most prominent features in the myth of Trita Aptya/Thraetaona Athwiya were his slaughter of a three-headed dragon or demon, and his position as the "third one" whose two elder brothers envied him and tried to kill him by abandoning him in a well.
The similarities between the Indo-Iranian myths and epics on the one hand, and the Persian folk tale on the other, suggest themselves at once:
* the position of the hero as the youngest of three brothers;
* the betrayal of the hero;
* the abandoning of the hero in an underground world;
* his single-handed victory over dragons/demons in an underground well;
* the chthonic nature of the demon's abode;
* the connection with water;
* the release of captives (water/maidens; cows/water/wives).
The similarities do not permit them to be considered as autonomous structures articulated independently in different narrative traditions, but it is less easy, perhaps, to be sure what the relationship between folktale and myth is in this case. The obvious interpretation is that the folktale is the folkloric remains of the old myth.
However, it is possible to take the opposite view, and argue that important sequences of both myth and folktale can be traced to the well-defined and recurring patterns of a familiar Indo-European folktale type, "The Bear's Son." As we know, some scholars have suggested that the English epic Beowulf, too, has its origin in the crude substance of this folktale.
http://rbedrosian.com/ananik6.htm
Armenian Mythology
by Mardiros H. Ananikian
BTW: Hero Quests as adventures have one exceptional benefit: There is no need for any artificial railroading. Both the characters and the players want to keep on rails. They can be made to research the rails (the desired course of the story) beforehand, by finding and comparing various contradictory myths.
In fact GM can try to lure them off the rails at some points.
In fact GM can try to lure them off the rails at some points.
soltakss said:
I am not, but feel free to repost it there.
The golden apples stolen by dragon in the version last mentioned, are, of course, the golden apples of immortality or youth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_apple
That fable has a great deal of versions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladon_%28mythology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr%C3%A2slea_the_Brave_and_the_Golden_Apples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bold_Knight,_the_Apples_of_Youth,_and_the_Water_of_Life
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsarevitch_Ivan,_the_Fire_Bird_and_the_Gray_Wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bird
http://www.cybersamurai.net/Mythology/nordic_gods/LegendsSagas/Edda/ProseEdda/SkaldskaparmalI-X.htm
II. Þjazi jötunn rænti Iðunni
He began the story at the point where three of the Æsir, Odin and Loki and Hœnir, departed from home and were wandering over mountains and wastes, and food was hard to find. But when they came down into a certain dale, they saw a herd of oxen, took one ox, and set about cooking it. Now when they thought that it must be cooked, they broke up the fire, and it was not cooked. After a while had passed, they having scattered the fire a second time, and it was not cooked, they took counsel together, asking each other what it might mean. Then they heard a voice speaking in the oak up above them, declaring that he who sat there confessed he had caused the lack of virtue in the fire. They looked thither, and there sat an eagle; and it was no small one. Then the eagle said: "If ye are willing to give me my fill of the ox, then it will cook in the fire." They assented to this. Then he let himself float down from the tree and alighted by the fire, and forthwith at the very first took unto himself the two hams of the ox, and both shoulders. Then Loki was angered, snatched up a great pole, brandished it with all his strength, and drove it at the eagle's body. The eagle plunged violently at the blow and flew up, so that the pole was fast to the eagle's back, and Loki's hands to the other end of the pole. The eagle flew at such a height that Loki's feet down below knocked against stones and rock-heaps and trees, and he thought his arms would be torn from his shoulders. He cried aloud, entreating the eagle urgently for peace; but the eagle declared that Loki should never be loosed, unless he would give him his oath to induce Idunn to come out of Ásgard with her apples. Loki assented, and being straightway loosed, went to his companions; nor for that time are any more things reported concerning their journey, until they had come home.
But at the appointed time Loki lured Idunn out of Ásgard into a certain wood, saying that he had found such apples as would seem to her of great virtue, and prayed that she would have her apples with her and compare them with these. Then Thjazi the giant came there in his eagle's plumage and took Idunn and flew away with her, off into Thrymheimr to his abode.
III. Loki náði Iðunni ok dráp Þjaza
But the Æsir became straitened at the disappearance of Idunn, and speedily they became hoary and old. Then those, Æsir took counsel together, and each asked the other what had last been known of Idunn; and the last that had been seen was that she had gone out of Ásgard with Loki. Thereupon Loki was seized and brought to the Thing, and was threatened with death, or tortures; when he had become well frightened, he declared that he would seek after Idunn in Jötunheim, if Freyja would lend him the hawk's plumage which she possessed. And when he got the hawk's plumage, he flew north into Jötunheim, and came on a certain day to the home of Thjazi the giant. Thjazi had rowed out to sea, but Idunn was at home alone: Loki turned her into the shape of a nut and grasped her in his claws and flew his utmost.
Now when Thjazi came home and missed Idunn, he took his eagle's plumage and flew after Loki, making a mighty rush of sound with his wings in his flight. But when the Æsir saw how the hawk flew with the nut, and where the eagle was flying, they went out below Ásgard and bore burdens of plane-shavings thither. As soon as the hawk flew into the citadel, he swooped down close by the castle-wall; then the Æsir struck fire to the plane-shavings. But the eagle could not stop himself when he missed the hawk: the feathers of the eagle caught fire, and straightway his flight ceased. Then the Æsir were near at hand and slew Thjazi the giant within the Gate of the Æsir, and that slaying is exceeding famous.
(Thjazi's feathers getting burned is an interesting similarity to the death of Icarus, and shows that even the return from the quest can be dangerous).
PrinceYyrkoon
Mongoose
Theres lots of mega dungeons in Glorantha. Theyre just really, really, dangerous. As they should be.
mallard said:Rasta said:If set in Glorantha, it would have to be done really well, and maybe don't call it a dungeon. Call it the caverns, or mostali ruins, or haunted crypt.
Real dungeons had like 10 rooms all on one level, the basement.
Rasta,
If semantics is the problem lets call the megadungeon an epic scenario to distinguish it from the run of the mill RQ scenario.
Sure. That's the problem for me anyways.
When I think of a dungeon crawl, I think of video game style "bad guys" whose sole purpose in life is to wait for heroic adventurers and then throw their lives away in an ultimately hopless battle.
I understand that this is not what you are going for, but it's what I think of when I hear dungeon.
I remember the Grim past of D&D before I got my hands on RQII and Cults of Prax, the vast cavernous trecks, randomly occupied with a mishmash of beasties apparently living in harmony with each other till our characters turned up at least - the giants and the Drow. It was fun but even at the time something about the inconsistency grated on my nerves.
But saying that, a Mega-quest/dungeon based around Sir Ethil and his Knights flagallant, seeking their way into hell could be a cool prospect - set out in a similar way to D&Ds Against the Drow modules might work well. Have the players take the role of Ethilrist's troop and general dogs body's as they seeks out their demon steeds, cloak of Darkness, and retrieves Ethil's mate Keener than.
The only negative is the fact the players are in the shadow of Ethil.
Paul
But saying that, a Mega-quest/dungeon based around Sir Ethil and his Knights flagallant, seeking their way into hell could be a cool prospect - set out in a similar way to D&Ds Against the Drow modules might work well. Have the players take the role of Ethilrist's troop and general dogs body's as they seeks out their demon steeds, cloak of Darkness, and retrieves Ethil's mate Keener than.
The only negative is the fact the players are in the shadow of Ethil.
Paul
stacktrace
Mongoose
Exubae said:
I think you just inspired my next campaign, thank you!
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