Should Moongose Publish an MRQ2 Megadungeon?
- Thread starter mallard
- Start date
Darran said:
Open-cast Mostali iron mines? The problem with overland settings is that the players have more choice in where to go, as do all the bad guys, so decisions are more strategic than tactical. In an underground setting, choices can be constrained. I'm not saying "railroading is the only way to run a game", there have to be be options and scope for creativity.
One of the problems with published megadungeons was pointed out by a friend the other day, he was playing in a D&D game where the DM had bought a big expensive dungeon scenario, had all the floor tiles and painted figures, and the party were going through the entire dungeon clearing out every room. My friend figured out a shortcut through the accommodation block and down the kitchen waste chute directly to where the abducted children were being held on the bottom level, and took the party that way. The DM was furious that he had bypassed all the elaborate set-piece encounters that he was looking forward to putting the party through, he felt he wasn't getting his money's worth from the scenario.
Deleriad
Mongoose
As far as I can see, never having played one, D&D style megadungeons are really about the dungeon. The rationale behind the megadungeon is often pretty weak, a favourite one being that it is really a mythic underground hence the implausibility of it and lack of sanitation.
RQ 'dungeons' have tended to be naturalistic with more of an attempt made to portray the locale as an actual living place. Having grown up on RQ, this is probably why I always tend to stumble when trying to run or design dungeons in the traditional D&D style. I get so far then my credibility circuit breaker trips.
E.g. I recently as an experiment used the mini dungeon in the D&D 4e DM's Guide as a test for grid-based combat. All the while a voice in the back of my head was shouting "where's the look out?" "what are they doing in the next room, 10 feet away, while their friends are being butchered?" "why are they all wearing armour?" "who is reapplying poison to the dart traps?" "how the hell does the boulder do that?" "what are the locals doing while the invaders take a 5 minute breather?" I know it's meant to be just a game but I wasn't able to take it seriously.
Still and all, a RQ setting that puts its own twist on a mega dungeon could be a lot of fun.
RQ 'dungeons' have tended to be naturalistic with more of an attempt made to portray the locale as an actual living place. Having grown up on RQ, this is probably why I always tend to stumble when trying to run or design dungeons in the traditional D&D style. I get so far then my credibility circuit breaker trips.
E.g. I recently as an experiment used the mini dungeon in the D&D 4e DM's Guide as a test for grid-based combat. All the while a voice in the back of my head was shouting "where's the look out?" "what are they doing in the next room, 10 feet away, while their friends are being butchered?" "why are they all wearing armour?" "who is reapplying poison to the dart traps?" "how the hell does the boulder do that?" "what are the locals doing while the invaders take a 5 minute breather?" I know it's meant to be just a game but I wasn't able to take it seriously.
Still and all, a RQ setting that puts its own twist on a mega dungeon could be a lot of fun.
From a personal point of view, running a dungeon would be quite tricky as we play over skype (and sometimes 3-way, so no video), and we don't draw maps or use figures. I'll have to investigate the online tools for mapping, I think there's one that allows the GM to reveal areas of a map to online participants incrementally.
I've never played any of the D&D mega-dungeons, but I fondly remember Ultima Underworld.
I've been thinking of trying to force someone to run a BRP/MRQ2 sandbox dungeon for me on line.
The way to make it more interesting IMO than 'kick in the door, kill them and take their stuff' (fun as it can be in carefully measured doses) is taking a page from city style adventuring. First of all dispense with the Evil Boss at the lowest level as well as anything that clearly defines any one group as good or evil. Then populate the dungeon with different groups of humans and fantasy races to taste with both peaceful contact and violent conflicts going on between them. These all live in pretty clearly defined regions or territories, with empty tunnels and caverns as 'wilderness' in between.
Each group would function as a sort of mini-city state, enclave or tribe with various cults, factions and guilds. Some organizations might exist in many enclaves.
Adventures could thus be about internal political machinations of important families and organizations as well as spelunking with exploration and mapping. And then there are the relations with other groups with trade, diplomacy and even conquest of contested regions or resources.
I think it could be fun. Silly, yes but fun.
I've been thinking of trying to force someone to run a BRP/MRQ2 sandbox dungeon for me on line.
The way to make it more interesting IMO than 'kick in the door, kill them and take their stuff' (fun as it can be in carefully measured doses) is taking a page from city style adventuring. First of all dispense with the Evil Boss at the lowest level as well as anything that clearly defines any one group as good or evil. Then populate the dungeon with different groups of humans and fantasy races to taste with both peaceful contact and violent conflicts going on between them. These all live in pretty clearly defined regions or territories, with empty tunnels and caverns as 'wilderness' in between.
Each group would function as a sort of mini-city state, enclave or tribe with various cults, factions and guilds. Some organizations might exist in many enclaves.
Adventures could thus be about internal political machinations of important families and organizations as well as spelunking with exploration and mapping. And then there are the relations with other groups with trade, diplomacy and even conquest of contested regions or resources.
I think it could be fun. Silly, yes but fun.
drdentista
Mongoose
Of course it's silly, and not very "realistic", but it's entertainment and adventure. I mean, how realistic is a giant? Or a broo?
Actually, I think RQ are a much more suited system for this than D&D. And think of the old-school RQ stuff - "Hellpits of Nightfang" and "The legendary Duck Tower"... Plenty of dungeon-ish stuff there. For me, a mix of more realistic and mature stories, spiced-up with the occasional dungeon here and there is the perfect mix.
So I second the idea of a new dungeon style adventure for MRQ
Actually, I think RQ are a much more suited system for this than D&D. And think of the old-school RQ stuff - "Hellpits of Nightfang" and "The legendary Duck Tower"... Plenty of dungeon-ish stuff there. For me, a mix of more realistic and mature stories, spiced-up with the occasional dungeon here and there is the perfect mix.
So I second the idea of a new dungeon style adventure for MRQ
Deleriad said:
All a matter of DMing. In one of my dungeons, if a room 10' away hears you, somebody reacts. Traps get reset if they where set by somebody that lives there, that wasnt taken out by the party. Often there are clusters of rooms that are allied with each other, and in oposition to other clusters. If players can take the time to talk to folks, they dont have to fight everybody to get what they want. Also there are empty rooms that are border regions.
However, this means a lot more work for the DM as you have several balls in the air at the same time
Runequest is supposedly a Bronze Age-style setting. Of course, in fact it is a very much modern, or rathern postmodern, and "Bronze Age" parts are mostly from Eliade etc. (This is not a criticism, by the way).
The Bronze Age was an era of the Artificial Immortality. People thought one part of the soul lived IN the corpse, which was only "partially" dead, and another lived on in the Underworld, or Blessed Isles. The corpse had to be fed, not always symbolically (That belief lasted longer, even until Classical Greece: they had feeding pipes to literally feed corpses with soup). As long as the corpse lasted underground, the main soul could survive in happines, using all the treasure gathered in its tomb. But it had to have that treasure, and regular sacrifices to feed it. The state was basically an association to worship the ancestors.
As the Egypt was the most stable state in Europe, this system survived the longest there, but originally it was not limited to Egypt. In China, ancestor worship was finally eliminated only by the Communists.
According to this belief, the divine power comes to the ruler through his ancestors. His main duty is to sustain his dead ancestors in their "pseudo-life" by building and guarding their tombs, giving them proper grave goods, "feeding" them with sacrifices, and sacrificing to gods on their behalf. On a smaller scale, this was done by all people; even if the sacrfices had to be mostly symbolic.
By connecting themselves with the divine realm and becoming guarantors of good weather, fertility of the earth etc, the early kings could justify their own power.
The whole state was based on the religiously justified taxation by the king. Scibes served mostly to write down the taxes. The state gathered food, gold, everything.
At that time there were gathered enormous treasures in many tombs - in Mycean Greece, in Egypt, for example in the enormous, now-destroyed Egyptian Labyrinth etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth#Herodotus.27_Egyptian_labyrinth
http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/ml/index.htm
http://www.casa.ucl.ac.uk/digital_egypt/hawara/
http://www.amazeingart.com/seven-wonders/egyptian-labyrinth.html
http://www.casa.ucl.ac.uk/digital_egypt/hawara/bibliography_old.html
"Herodotus (ca. 484-430 BC): One passage in Histories, Book, II, 148.
In the second book of his History, the Greek writer Herodotus gave the following account of the Labyrinth:
This I have actually seen, a work beyond words. For if anyone put together the buildings of the Greeks and display of their labours, they would seem lesser in both effort and expense to this labyrinth - even though both the temple in Ephesus and the one in Samos are remarkable. Even the pyramids are beyond words, and each was equal to many and mighty works of the Greeks. Yet the labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids.
In it there are twelve courts with roofs, each with facing gateways, six oriented to the north and six oriented to the south. It contains two sets of chambers, one below ground and the other aligned on top, three thousand in number - fifteen hundred in each set. I saw the upper series of chambers myself, passing through, and speak from my own observation, whereas I learned of the underground series by report. For the Egyptian authorities were utterly unwilling to show them saying they contained the burials both of the kings who had caused this labyrinth to be build, and of the secret crocodiles.
So I speak of the lower chambers from listening to others, but have myself seen the upper ones - beyond human labour. For the ways out through the roofed areas and the extremely intricate windings through the courts arose infinite wonder, passing from court to chambers and from chambers to porches (?), to other roofed areas from the porches (?), and to other courts from the chambers. For all of this the roof is of stone, like the walls, and the walls are covered with carved motives, while each court has a colonnade of white stone exactly joined. At the far end of the labyrinth stands a pyramid of forty orguiae which include the carvature of mighty figures. The way into this is cut below ground."
Diodorus Siculus (1st century BC): Two passages in his history, Book I, 61 and 66.
When the king died the government was recovered by Egyptians and they appointed a native king Mendes, whom some call Mares. Although he was responsible for no military achievements whatsoever, he did build himself what is called the Labyrinth as a tomb, an edifice which is wonderful not so much for its size as for the inimitable skill with which it was build; for once in, it is impossible to find one's way out again without difficulty, unless one lights upon a guide who is perfectly acquainted with it. It is even said by some that Daedalus crossed over to Egypt and, in wonder at the skill shown in the building, built for Minos, King of Crete, a labyrinth like that in Egypt, in which, so the tales goes, the creature called the Minotaur was kept. Be that as it may, the Cretan Labyrinth has completely disappeared, either through the destruction wrought by some ruler or through the ravages of time; but the Egyptian Labyrinth remains absolutely perfect in its entire construction down to my time. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army
"According to historian Sima Qian (145-90 BC), construction of this mausoleum began in 246 BC and involved 700,000 workers. Geographer Li Daoyuan, six centuries after the death of the First Emperor, explained that Mount Li had been chosen as a site for its auspicious geology: it once had a gold mine on its north face and a jade mine on its south face, demonstrating not only its sacred value, but also perhaps how the tunnels had come to be dug in the first place.[3] Qin Shi Huang was 13 when construction began. He specifically stated that no two soldiers were to be made alike, which is most likely why he had construction started at that young age. Sima Qian, in his most famous work, Shiji, completed a century after the mausoleum completion, wrote that the First Emperor was buried with palaces, scenic towers, officials, valuable utensils and "wonderful objects," with 100 rivers fashioned in mercury and above this heavenly bodies below which he wrote were "the features of the earth." Some translations of this passage refer to "models" or "imitations," but he does not use those words.[4]
Glorantha, even in the First Age, is much too modern for such cultures. Nysalor is connected with Zen, not with pyramid-building pharaohs. There are, however, certain aspects common with the Bronze Age mythology - eg the Underworld.
It is certainly possible to imagine a Dawn Age culture which built underground enormous tombs for their kings. The Yelm cult would seem most fitted for that kind of "Egyptian" society, esp. because of his death and return from the Underworld.
Such a tomb holds the body of the king, his court, his warriors, monsters etc. The soul of the king would live in the paradise of Yelm for as long as the body was intact.
The tomb is a direct connection to the Underworld. For that reason, the dead can be alive there. They sleep, but wake when an intruder enters the tomb. In addition to the awakened corpses of people buried there, the tomb is guarded by traps, monsters etc.
The Bronze Age was an era of the Artificial Immortality. People thought one part of the soul lived IN the corpse, which was only "partially" dead, and another lived on in the Underworld, or Blessed Isles. The corpse had to be fed, not always symbolically (That belief lasted longer, even until Classical Greece: they had feeding pipes to literally feed corpses with soup). As long as the corpse lasted underground, the main soul could survive in happines, using all the treasure gathered in its tomb. But it had to have that treasure, and regular sacrifices to feed it. The state was basically an association to worship the ancestors.
As the Egypt was the most stable state in Europe, this system survived the longest there, but originally it was not limited to Egypt. In China, ancestor worship was finally eliminated only by the Communists.
According to this belief, the divine power comes to the ruler through his ancestors. His main duty is to sustain his dead ancestors in their "pseudo-life" by building and guarding their tombs, giving them proper grave goods, "feeding" them with sacrifices, and sacrificing to gods on their behalf. On a smaller scale, this was done by all people; even if the sacrfices had to be mostly symbolic.
By connecting themselves with the divine realm and becoming guarantors of good weather, fertility of the earth etc, the early kings could justify their own power.
The whole state was based on the religiously justified taxation by the king. Scibes served mostly to write down the taxes. The state gathered food, gold, everything.
At that time there were gathered enormous treasures in many tombs - in Mycean Greece, in Egypt, for example in the enormous, now-destroyed Egyptian Labyrinth etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth#Herodotus.27_Egyptian_labyrinth
http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/ml/index.htm
http://www.casa.ucl.ac.uk/digital_egypt/hawara/
http://www.amazeingart.com/seven-wonders/egyptian-labyrinth.html
http://www.casa.ucl.ac.uk/digital_egypt/hawara/bibliography_old.html
"Herodotus (ca. 484-430 BC): One passage in Histories, Book, II, 148.
In the second book of his History, the Greek writer Herodotus gave the following account of the Labyrinth:
This I have actually seen, a work beyond words. For if anyone put together the buildings of the Greeks and display of their labours, they would seem lesser in both effort and expense to this labyrinth - even though both the temple in Ephesus and the one in Samos are remarkable. Even the pyramids are beyond words, and each was equal to many and mighty works of the Greeks. Yet the labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids.
In it there are twelve courts with roofs, each with facing gateways, six oriented to the north and six oriented to the south. It contains two sets of chambers, one below ground and the other aligned on top, three thousand in number - fifteen hundred in each set. I saw the upper series of chambers myself, passing through, and speak from my own observation, whereas I learned of the underground series by report. For the Egyptian authorities were utterly unwilling to show them saying they contained the burials both of the kings who had caused this labyrinth to be build, and of the secret crocodiles.
So I speak of the lower chambers from listening to others, but have myself seen the upper ones - beyond human labour. For the ways out through the roofed areas and the extremely intricate windings through the courts arose infinite wonder, passing from court to chambers and from chambers to porches (?), to other roofed areas from the porches (?), and to other courts from the chambers. For all of this the roof is of stone, like the walls, and the walls are covered with carved motives, while each court has a colonnade of white stone exactly joined. At the far end of the labyrinth stands a pyramid of forty orguiae which include the carvature of mighty figures. The way into this is cut below ground."
Diodorus Siculus (1st century BC): Two passages in his history, Book I, 61 and 66.
When the king died the government was recovered by Egyptians and they appointed a native king Mendes, whom some call Mares. Although he was responsible for no military achievements whatsoever, he did build himself what is called the Labyrinth as a tomb, an edifice which is wonderful not so much for its size as for the inimitable skill with which it was build; for once in, it is impossible to find one's way out again without difficulty, unless one lights upon a guide who is perfectly acquainted with it. It is even said by some that Daedalus crossed over to Egypt and, in wonder at the skill shown in the building, built for Minos, King of Crete, a labyrinth like that in Egypt, in which, so the tales goes, the creature called the Minotaur was kept. Be that as it may, the Cretan Labyrinth has completely disappeared, either through the destruction wrought by some ruler or through the ravages of time; but the Egyptian Labyrinth remains absolutely perfect in its entire construction down to my time. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army
"According to historian Sima Qian (145-90 BC), construction of this mausoleum began in 246 BC and involved 700,000 workers. Geographer Li Daoyuan, six centuries after the death of the First Emperor, explained that Mount Li had been chosen as a site for its auspicious geology: it once had a gold mine on its north face and a jade mine on its south face, demonstrating not only its sacred value, but also perhaps how the tunnels had come to be dug in the first place.[3] Qin Shi Huang was 13 when construction began. He specifically stated that no two soldiers were to be made alike, which is most likely why he had construction started at that young age. Sima Qian, in his most famous work, Shiji, completed a century after the mausoleum completion, wrote that the First Emperor was buried with palaces, scenic towers, officials, valuable utensils and "wonderful objects," with 100 rivers fashioned in mercury and above this heavenly bodies below which he wrote were "the features of the earth." Some translations of this passage refer to "models" or "imitations," but he does not use those words.[4]
Glorantha, even in the First Age, is much too modern for such cultures. Nysalor is connected with Zen, not with pyramid-building pharaohs. There are, however, certain aspects common with the Bronze Age mythology - eg the Underworld.
It is certainly possible to imagine a Dawn Age culture which built underground enormous tombs for their kings. The Yelm cult would seem most fitted for that kind of "Egyptian" society, esp. because of his death and return from the Underworld.
Such a tomb holds the body of the king, his court, his warriors, monsters etc. The soul of the king would live in the paradise of Yelm for as long as the body was intact.
The tomb is a direct connection to the Underworld. For that reason, the dead can be alive there. They sleep, but wake when an intruder enters the tomb. In addition to the awakened corpses of people buried there, the tomb is guarded by traps, monsters etc.
Look to another game for inspiration, Earthdawn. Add RQII to the setting and I have a feeling the sum would be much better than the parts, neither of which are bad, not at all...Earthdawn is a good way to mix the city adventure with the dungeon, from what I hear.
Or Wraith Recon. What if the world goes up in flames, leaving the base complexes partially intact (and tribes from the west take up residence), then skip a century ahead and have new adventurers explore them? Megadungeon?
Conan. The Red Citadel and others. Look at 'Ruins of Hyboria'.
The possibilities are endless, and just because it's RQ doesn't mean it has to be Glorantha, after all.
Or Wraith Recon. What if the world goes up in flames, leaving the base complexes partially intact (and tribes from the west take up residence), then skip a century ahead and have new adventurers explore them? Megadungeon?
Conan. The Red Citadel and others. Look at 'Ruins of Hyboria'.
The possibilities are endless, and just because it's RQ doesn't mean it has to be Glorantha, after all.
drdentista said:Right now I'm designing a "mega-dungeon" for 2nd age Glorantha, located in the mountains near Castle Kartolin, between Karia and Dorastor...
It is a "secret passage" into Dorastor, used by some of the Chaos beasties there. It is ancient and forgotten by most men, and of course, over the centuries, it has been infested with Krarsht cultists and other bad guys...
TONS of fun
Sounds cool! Please share!
zozotroll said:
Good Point.
I think that only about 1/3 of a dungeon should be inhabited. The rest should be tricks, traps, or just well described empty areas. My God Learner ruin is a dungeon consisting of 4 concentric circular levels which is filled with weird god learner experiments and other stuff. There are very few monsters except for some demons and the lunars that are racing to get the artifact at the center.
Remember that not all gloranthan monsters need an ecology to survive. Undead, magical creatures like elementals and constructs, like jolanti, don't really need any ecology and are programed to react to certain events.
Perhaps the skeleton or the construct could be programmed to reset the traps or whatever.
Loz
Mongoose
Not that simple... We have an extensive release schedule for 2011/2012 that's just been agreed and finalised. Matt does know a great deal about what does and doesn't sell though, so, if he thinks that the idea has some commercial possibilities, quite aside from the popular view expressed in this thread, then I'm sure he'll look at it as an idea. Given the schedule's set though, it may not be an immediate priority (although things always change...). Nor is anything ever guaranteed...
He does read these boards, but msprange@mongoosepublishing.com
Maybe. One thing that I try to do, though, is not try to directly map my thought processes onto my character's thought processes. If I think of something that my character might do that makes the game more fun, even at his own expense (even, in one instance, to the point of getting himself beheaded for serial murder) then I will try to come up with a reason for the character to come to the mistaken conclusion that it is a good idea. After all, the game is not about rescuing the princess, it's about playing a fun game. In this instance, you could say that my friend cut short everyone's fun.mallard said:
drdentista said:Of course it's silly, and not very "realistic", but it's entertainment and adventure. I mean, how realistic is a giant? Or a broo?
Actually, I think RQ are a much more suited system for this than D&D. And think of the old-school RQ stuff - "Hellpits of Nightfang" and "The legendary Duck Tower"... Plenty of dungeon-ish stuff there. For me, a mix of more realistic and mature stories, spiced-up with the occasional dungeon here and there is the perfect mix.
So I second the idea of a new dungeon style adventure for MRQ
I don't think adventuring in a megadungeon is any more silly than adventuring in a giant floating baby cradle and the cradle scenario is considered one of the best scenarios ever written for RQ.
Similar threads
