Tim Earls charts are the canon approved one's from JMS, they stand. There are too many size errors in the show to get anything definative, so the charts remain the only thing that gives an out and out full explaination.
Oh, no, not another of Those guys. :?
For one thing, there are many other "approved by JMS" sizes floating around, Earls are only the latest (Sierra CD-Rom, AoG, ItF, SecManual...). And the latest versions aren't always the correct ones, just think of how much history was rewritten in human history...
For another, "approval by JMS" in
No Way make something an "out and out full explaination", or "the truth"; at beast it makes that someting an "current official position". Positions can change, and this one did during the show times.
Then,
Even things JMS himself wrote he later contradicted a few times; so his approval in
No Way makes something holy writ.
Lastly, Never,
EVER should a thinking human use "
approved by -insert authority here-" as an excuse to shut down his or her brain, and deny or disallow any other thought and evidence. Humanity never had much luck with that sort of thing... never! Just read the history books...
And now an apology for all who may feel offended, but I just can't stand this "holy writ" kind of thinking any longer.
OK, now that I have that out of my system, let's see...
Ears sizes are mostly acceptable, and it's true that they are as canon as it gets in B5 - not that this means much, see above. Some of his sizes however contradict not only CGI scenes we saw, but also dialoge we heard and even plot devices like in "Matters of Honor" ("Oh, we can't jump because they can't know we can jump, since most ships this size can't and that's one more weapon in our arsenal...").
In such instances I tend to do some thinking... and my conclusions are that when Earls resized the WhiteStar for example, his "official size" reflects the one scene in S-5 against all of S-3 and S-4, and is therefore to be considered faulty; especially after Fabio has shown that it isn't even needed to resize the WS if you are a bit creative with your CGI.
You are perhaps forgetting something. Mongoose is listing the crew, B5 is listing the compliment on board. That is very different. As the Mars figures also include a full compliment of GROPOS on board each one, hence the larger numbers of people. The Cerberus was not on wartime duty and thus did not require a full compliment of GROPOS.
Isn't that what I basically said? See my post: Mongoose minimum crew, Cerberus standard "patrol" crew, Mars "wartime" crew including Marines/GROPOS and spares to cover combat losses.
Or who do you think adds to a warship's crew to get the total compliment? Paying passegers? :wink:
Mongoose gives the crew but doesn't really touch on the compliment of GROPOS on board. The hyperion is a good exmaple though as it lists about 400 troops being able to stay on the Hyperion (pg119/153). But only need's 38 crewman. That's a large difference. So 132 crewman for the Omega and toughly 900 troops makes a lot of sense.
Actually none at all - not unless you're talking an Omega on route to ferry GROPOS to a planetary combat zone.
However, 196 crew (EA-Factbook value), times two for two shifts is 392, which comes close enough to the Cerberus to work for me. 392, plus two shifts of 26 pilots for the fighters and shuttles makes 444, and add to that a third shift (minus one man for superstitious purposes of course) and 350 GROPOS or so and you reach the thousand we hear of around Mars. And while a one shift of crew and lots of GROPOS make little sense in a space battle, three shifts of crew and half that again in Marines for extra hands in damage control and for possible boarding actions does sound a lot like what I'd expect in a space battle.
Now, I'm no military expert, more like an armchair captain, but it does make sense for me. Maybe some people who have some military experience would care to comment? Do US carriers go out to war with just enough crew to man every station and stuffed full of army guys otherwise?
They would obviously be given on board duties on toop of their trooper roles, Gideon I believe was a GROPOS who was aiding in repair. So although the figures change, the crew compliment remains the same.
Possible, though not very likely - after all, how would a GROPOS get command of an Explorer starship a mere 9 years later... that's be like an former army grunt commanding an submarine - it might be possible, dunno, but it'd seem more likely he just wore GROPOS armor & equipment for some reason (I could speculate - that the Cerberus was a patrol cruiser, and he had been standing by as boarding party in case they need to inspect some vessel...)
Though of course it is possible - he could've been a GROPOS, and transfered to fleet after the Cerberus incident because he wanted the chance to find that strange ship again... and for his silence about what really happened, the Clarke government put him on a fast track through the ranks, and he maneged to keep on it through the civil war and the following reconstruction of earthforce... who but the great maker knows...
When does it get blown up in ITB? If you mean ACTA I don't think we atually see it, do we? Only really recall the tankers. It's hardly a magic gun, it took a good chunk out of a planet too, and was fired in hyperspace... ya know the volatile enviroment that increases damage.
Yup, my bad with the abbs. ACtA it was. And while I never saw any wreckage, the ship disappearing in a big fireball and not being seen agfain afterwards does point toward "blown away" after the three of four NL hits...
I won't say anything about Cursade though. Magic gun indeed... BtW, while it did fuse quite a bit of a planetary's surfect, it did less damage then the Particle Cannons of Earth's defense grid sats were said to have done had the fired in "Endgame", didn't it? Yet still got rid of the humungeous Mothership with a single shot (as if it ever fires more then that - recharge time indeed) Just some fuel to some flames...
There is an explaiantion as to why they have a mothership, they have no home remember. This would double up as their city. They conserve energy by keeping the fleet as one.
Oh, I'd take that as for why they have a mothership. But not to why they waste space and volume better used for city blocks, hydroponic farms and manifacturing centers on the oh-so-precious mothership with carrying warships that can fly on their own, jump on their own, etc. Or why they if they have such a nifty Mothership, fly it smack before the nose of the magic-gun wielding Excalibur... with most of the warships still on board...
And yes, I know the power of plot strikes again. I just wish it had used more subtle methods... but what am I thinking - that was Cursade after all... :wink:
:?
Erm the pursuing Omega was just that, pursuing... you can't get a size estimate based on a ship that is far behind them. The perspective was from the Omega, they were not side by side with the Omega dwarfing the Omega. The ship is much longer but is still small on the X and Y axis compared to the Omega, so looking from behind at a distance isn't a great way to judge size.
Actually, IIRC there were a few shots from just in front of the Drakh ship too, and even then the Omega looked bigger. But I'll rewatch it as soon as I find my videos, which are still packed away right now (note to self - find the time to do the book and videocase, and unpack all those books and casettes from the moving boxes)
The jump engine thing is already torn to shreds by the twenty year old Liandra. So it seemed that comment was more at fault than the actual ship sizes.
Maybe. But then they shouldn't have used it. Actually they should have stuck with what they did instead of reinventing B5 fluff as the thought stuck them, but I supose you can't have everything... at least they didn't do either androids, cute kids that lived or magic particles of the week... and the only enjoyable "crisis on the holodeck" idea I ever saw...
Anyway, the "jumping Liandra" is one TV-movie, the small WS is two seasons, and a rather hefty plot device besides. I know where I will put more weight in my considerations...
Yes the whitestar grew but it now has its canon figure and can be taken as the such for the show. Otherwise it beocmes a real mess in accepting every figure that someone wants to think up for the day, the Tim Earls charts are canon so can be accepted as such over official or observed.
Again - not so.
Where they are OK I hjave no problem with them, but where they are not OK I reserve the right to object. Just because it's "canon" doesn't make a mistake less a mistake.
And that's why I advocate taking these sizes with a grain of salt and Think about where they came from and what follwing the current canon size as opposed to the former canon size really means. (And of course to take everything else Mr.Early says with five big grains of salt, as he has been known to cloak his personal opinion into the mantle of authority he didn't turn in when his spell as B5 CGI guy ended) Know what it means, know where it came from, know what it contradicts and what it supports - and then make up your OWN mind on it, and on how you'll treat the info. I hate to say it, but Understanding IS a three-edged sword. Don't let anyone tell you his edge is the whole, even if it bears the JMS stamp of approval. And question everything. And make up your own mind as to what you want in the quest for workable size figures for B5.
If you want to use those charts with all the implications they hold for your campaigns - sure, go ahead. But don't be surprised if you stumble over the cracks in B5 continuity while trying to stay with the show, as then your figures will match only the latest few episodes and a TV movie or two.
Or you can go with the show as seen, and work out everything from there - then you will have the mess you fear, with contradicting values equally valid.
Me, I'm gonna say right from the start that I'll prefer logical to canon values, and that I'm gonna ignore anything not making sense in any of my campaigns. And since I say that up front, I can just point to it later on as an excuse to dismiss things like someone printing out Earls charts rule-lawyering with them. And then I'm gonna do some thinking, and choose those stats most workable to come close to every or at least almost every scene, and think up some explenations to cover up the cracks. More work, sure, but more fun too, and it gives a better end result for a campaign.
So what if the Sharlins behind B5 look two miles tall in a few shots. So what if the WS is said to be half as big as an Hyperion cruiser by Earls.
I'll go with what works for me, and I will encourage other people to choose for themselves what they want instead of what some authority or parent figures tell them to choose... why do you think I choose my handle in the first place, all that years ago? :wink:
And of course I'll strive to give them as much information to make the best choice for themselves.
And of course all my information is colored by the choices I made and the values I hold dear.
So what - find some thought out arguments against it, and give them to people. But don't try to stop the discussion with an argument as "
The Great Maker Sayeth Thou Shalt Not Question The Divine Size Charts Brought Onto Ye By His Exalted Prophet Tim Earls". Especially not when I'm present!
:twisted:
