Ship Design: Power plants

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes, well, be careful about your reasoning. There is the general (or core rulebook) case, FF&S case, TCS case and HG case - each could have it's own "real answer" that is different to each other.

It's generally per edition, that's why I quoted MgT TCS, not CT TCS saying the same thing.

FF&S (either TNE or T4) is a much more detailed system. They could encompass what you are trying to do (as a house rule) by manipulating the damage tables. It would make ships more difficult to knock out, so significantly change the combat system.

I only had evidence for core rulebook, then rest is my own real world engineering acumen applied to science fiction concepts. Yes, I could use that for local house-rules, although I'd prefer to see some recognition reflected in the published Traveller system. Question of this thread asks "Is there ANY reason ..." suggesting to me that non-rulebook reasons might also be useful to discuss, where explicit rules are apparently absent.

The rules are clear (Core'22, p170):

A crit 4 to the power system, and you are out of power, you are dead in space.
A crit 4 to the fuel system, and you are out of power, you are dead in space.

That is what you are trying to get around, but RAW does not allow it... If you want to house rule it, you should also modify the damage and malfunction systems to reflect damage to each distributed power system.


Except T5 of course, that has the distributed power by default. The power plant only powers the drives, all other systems are generally self-powered by "Fusion+", some sort of cold fusion from what I gather.

A military system is more likely to have redundancy/duplicity backup provisioning compared to a commercial equivalent, simply because of the cost vs risks ratios. However, this evidence that you have brought to attention doesn't seem to have explored a distributed power system, as mooted in this thread. So maybe we are wrong for the suggestions.

Agreed, no distributed power systems, because RAW does not allow it.

The original Leviathan had a backup power plant:

CT A4 Leviathan, p27:
_ _ Power: The power plant on C and D decks provides electric power for all ship functions. Wall outlets situated throughout the ship provide connections for most uses - such connectors are Imperial standard. The backup power plant on F deck provides about 70% of the main plant's output, which has no material effect on any function other than the jump drive; this is limited to Jump-2 on the backup plant.

It has a PP-4, with a PP-2 (or 3?) backup.

Thanks for your diligence in researching this! However, this evidence of "two sets of drives" is not the same as a distributed system, although both imply "more than one," they operate in different ways. The "two sets of drives", as per your example, only works as a monolithic device.

Agreed, they work as a monolithic system. Several drives, one system. As RAW assumes.


I think we can assume the ships are built as resilient as economically possible, i.e. to a large degree distributed. That is why the crits makes you lose a little power, then a lot of power, and finally all power. The power systems can take a lot of damage but still keep working, until the whole thing collapses. It's just a simplified description as a monolithic system.

This is typical of rocket engines, where two, three or four thrusters are provided because a single thruster is not powerful enough to provide enough thrust, without risk of cracking/exploding it. Several thrusters bundled together would produce a controlled effect that is the equivalent of one gigantic thruster, without incurring the instability risk.

Quite, and can be seen as a distributed system described and treated as a monolithic system for simplicity.

 

[Limpin Legin]

It's generally per edition, that's why I quoted MgT TCS, not CT TCS saying the same thing.

FF&S (either TNE or T4) is a much more detailed system. They could encompass what you are trying to do (as a house rule) by manipulating the damage tables. It would make ships more difficult to knock out, so significantly change the combat system.



The rules are clear (Core'22, p170):
View attachment 2104
A crit 4 to the power system, and you are out of power, you are dead in space.
A crit 4 to the fuel system, and you are out of power, you are dead in space.

That is what you are trying to get around, but RAW does not allow it... If you want to house rule it, you should also modify the damage and malfunction systems to reflect damage to each distributed power system.


Except T5 of course, that has the distributed power by default. The power plant only powers the drives, all other systems are generally self-powered by "Fusion+", some sort of cold fusion from what I gather.




Agreed, no distributed power systems, because RAW does not allow it.

The original Leviathan had a backup power plant:

It has a PP-4, with a PP-2 (or 3?) backup.



Agreed, they work as a monolithic system. Several drives, one system. As RAW assumes.


I think we can assume the ships are built as resilient as economically possible, i.e. to a large degree distributed. That is why the crits makes you lose a little power, then a lot of power, and finally all power. The power systems can take a lot of damage but still keep working, until the whole thing collapses. It's just a simplified description as a monolithic system.




Quite, and can be seen as a distributed system described and treated as a monolithic system for simplicity.

Cool. Ship design doesn't say you can't ... yet Critical Hit Effects definitely is singular/monolithic, suggesting you can't. However sensors will necessarily be distributed, (because sensors for temp, air quality, fuel gauge, heave/roll/pitch and acceleration, etc. wont be implemented in same location) and they are still treated as monolithic for Critical Hits purposes - Mmmm!

 

[Sigtrygg]

If your game is centered around the PCs and their ship, with their ship in effect a character, then you should go to the trouble of making a much more in depth hit location and critical chart. Start with an expanded hit location table and then build on that.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Cool. Ship design doesn't say you can't ... yet Critical Hit Effects definitely is singular/monolithic, suggesting you can't. However sensors will necessarily be distributed, (because sensors for temp, air quality, fuel gauge, heave/roll/pitch and acceleration, etc. wont be implemented in same location) and they are still treated as monolithic for Critical Hits purposes - Mmmm!

Exactly. The sensor system is one simple line item in the design and combat systems, but a complex distributed system in reality.

All Traveller design systems are heavily simplified, even FF&S, but tries to describe and systematise the same underlying complexity.

 

[Condottiere]

For sensors, it's probably less redundancy, but more diminishing returns.

 

[Arkathan]

Way back when, I would use the deck plans and relative angles of the ships to determine hits. determine a spot on the silhouette and randomize a direction and number of squares off from that point. Whatever was under that, got hit. Sometimes hits missed and sometimes near misses hit.
That was back when people had patience for detailed systems... like the SFB tomes. It worked for us.
That would allow making hits to a distributed system determinable.

 

[metlk]

Pg. 23 of High Guard gives a pretty good answer in the form of explaining the difference to the critical hit system when using large ships.
"Critical Hits on Large Ships
Large ships have a huge array of redundancy built
into their critical systems, allowing them to weather a
tremendous amount of damage. A hit that would disable
the entire power plant of a Type-S scout might do
nothing more than cause a technician to flip a switch to
engage an auxiliary relay on board a heavy cruiser.
Because of this, large ships can simply ignore a large
number of critical hits.
• Ships larger than 2,000 tons ignore critical hits
from turrets and barbettes.
• Ships larger than 10,000 tons ignore critical hits
from all weapons except medium and large bay
weapons.
• Ships larger than 100,000 tons ignore critical hits
from all weapons except large bays.
Large ships can also endure a great deal more
damage before the effects of any critical hits become
noticeable. The Severity of a critical hit is based on 1%
increments of the ship’s hull value (minimum 10 points
of damage). For example, a ship with 10,000 Hull
points that receives a critical hit that causes 224 points
of damage, will sustain a Severity 2 critical hit."

Using that inference, small ships are effectively incapable of having multiple, independent power systems. Large ships could potentially, but even then from a ship design standpoint, it's just flavor. It's not explicitly stated in the rules, but when taken in context with the wording when designing a ship, it's fairly straight forward. As others have said, you can flavor text it out to be as many reactors scattered around the ship as you want, but as far as the gameplay is concerned, it's a single, unified system. If you came into my game and tried to argue that you could just re-route power from a different reactor to avoid the effect of a critical hit, I'd squash that (exceptions can always be made though as there's always room for good story ). If you want to re-write the crit system for your game, go for it.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Pg. 23 of High Guard gives a pretty good answer in the form of explaining the difference to the critical hit system when using large ships.
"Critical Hits on Large Ships
Large ships have a huge array of redundancy built
into their critical systems,

Using that inference, small ships are effectively incapable of having multiple, independent power systems.

Redundancy in a system is not the same as a distributed system, although both rely on solutions involving "more than one". With redundancy, you are creating a duplicate of the power need and would need to allocate 200% required space to provision it. With a distributed system, you would have smaller power units that collectively sum up to the 100% total power requirement provided by an equivalent monolithic system.
Also, in the CRB, power requirements are proportional to hull tonnage. So a smaller vessel would only need a smaller power plant, and thus it's (potential) multiple independent power systems would also be proportionally smaller (consequently it would be a fraction of the total hull, and no larger than 100% of the hull.)

 

[agentwigggles]

so many tiny fusion power plants that are like one or two meters apart for adventure sized ships

This feels like a fix, that doesnt fix anything
If you're in an adventure ship, and you get holes in your ship, you're kinda fucked where ever and how many power plants you have
What is this doing that that we cant just assume that glow in the dark light strips and UPS that can power bridge systems and doors.
Cant use them for the jdrive or weapons or mdrive, but at least the avoinics stay on for a bit

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

so many tiny fusion power plants that are like one or two meters apart for adventure sized ships

This feels like a fix, that doesnt fix anything
If you're in an adventure ship, and you get holes in your ship, you're kinda fucked where ever and how many power plants you have
What is this doing that that we cant just assume that glow in the dark light strips and UPS that can power bridge systems and doors.
Cant use them for the jdrive or weapons or mdrive, but at least the avoinics stay on for a bit

“This feels like a fix, that doesnt fix anything”

Not trying to min-max the ship design meta, instead trying to create an alien feel to ship design.

Another question: Can High Efficiency Batteries provide the Power surge needed to initiate a jump? HG2024 RAW, “… This Power can then be used in subsequent rounds as if they were being produced by the power plant…”

 

[Condottiere]

Power is agnostic.

At least, Mongosian.

 

[Limpin Legin]

so many tiny fusion power plants that are like one or two meters apart for adventure sized ships

Probably a max of 3 although merely having two would be a perk.

Another question: Can High Efficiency Batteries provide the Power surge needed to initiate a jump? HG2024 RAW, “… This Power can then be used in subsequent rounds as if they were being produced by the power plant…”

Whatever the power source, it has to be able to provide power under peak demand, so has to be chosen to match that demand.

Eg./ PC with Hard Disk Drive (HDD): HDDs use motors to move the magnetic head. Motors need more power to start up than they do to operate continually. Consequence is that everyone needs bigger power supply just to meet demand when PC is switched on, even if that is only for a few moments of operation

 

[Limpin Legin]

Power is agnostic.

At least, Mongosian.

Very sensible. Peak power is a design consideration and a purchase decision. All equipment of that sort is affected in the same way, without variation or exception. Not much scope for roleplaying.

 

[AndrewW]

Another question: Can High Efficiency Batteries provide the Power surge needed to initiate a jump? HG2024 RAW, “… This Power can then be used in subsequent rounds as if they were being produced by the power plant…”

The jump drive doesn't know the difference if the power is from a power plant or a high efficiency battery it's all the same to the jump drive, just needs sufficient power.

 

[Geir]

The jump drive doesn't know the difference if the power is from a power plant or a high efficiency battery it's all the same to the jump drive, just needs sufficient power.

Probably, except (p. 17 HG'22):

Only fusion and antimatter power plants can generate the intense burst of energy necessary to operate a jump drive

I think this was written with respect to chemical and fission plants. I'd still allow HE batteries, but it doesn't say so.

 

[Condottiere]

That pony has long since bolted from the stables.

You'd have to explain the difference from power source that prevents that.

 

[agentwigggles]

“This feels like a fix, that doesnt fix anything”

Not trying to min-max the ship design meta, instead trying to create an alien feel to ship design.

Another question: Can High Efficiency Batteries provide the Power surge needed to initiate a jump? HG2024 RAW, “… This Power can then be used in subsequent rounds as if they were being produced by the power plant…”

I didn't say the batteries on purpose. Those just provide a fix amount of pp.
And if you want alien the why are we caring what's legal in high guard.
Describe it however you want.

 

[metlk]

Redundancy in a system is not the same as a distributed system, although both rely on solutions involving "more than one". With redundancy, you are creating a duplicate of the power need and would need to allocate 200% required space to provision it. With a distributed system, you would have smaller power units that collectively sum up to the 100% total power requirement provided by an equivalent monolithic system.
Also, in the CRB, power requirements are proportional to hull tonnage. So a smaller vessel would only need a smaller power plant, and thus it's (potential) multiple independent power systems would also be proportionally smaller (consequently it would be a fraction of the total hull, and no larger than 100% of the hull.)

Exactly. With the way the rules are written, it does not matter how you flavor it, whether it's a single reactor, or multiple systems throughout the ship, when it comes down to the dice rolls, it's all just a single power system, even in the larger systems that have "redundancy" built into them.

 

[Arkathan]

Probably, except (p. 17 HG'22):

Only fusion and antimatter power plants can generate the intense burst of energy necessary to operate a jump drive

I think this was written with respect to chemical and fission plants. I'd still allow HE batteries, but it doesn't say so.

But, accumulators are not antimatter or fusion plants. It stores up the energy/particles. So I agree on the batteries.

 

[Geir]

But, accumulators are not antimatter or fusion plants. It stores up the energy/particles. So I agree on the batteries.

And even if not, as long as you had enough power in the fusion plant for just the the jump drive, you could hit a big transfer switch down in engineering and run the rest of the ship (or at least life support) off the batteries for that turn.