Shadows Vs ISA - Tips?

[mollari_uk]

I played with my Shadows against an ISA fleet in a 4pt War Call to Arms.

I had: 2 Ships , 1 Stalker, 6 Scouts.

He had (approx): 1 Carrier, 8 WhiteStars, 3 Gaim ships, 8 Bluestars and Sheridan (I think thats all).

It was going ok to start with but after turn 3 I was 4 scouts and 1 Stalker down and I'd only managed to kill 1 Whitestar. So I fled.

The main problem wasn't initiative sinks, it was Dodge + AA + CBD + INT (from fighters). My scounts did no damage with every shot, my ships did only 1 good shot (around 70+ damage reduced to about 20!!). Everything else missed every time or got reduced to virtually 0.

My only tactical error was probably charging my scouts forward thinking they'd actually do something.

So, anyone got any tips or is the ISA a no-no for the Shadows?

 

[Burger]

Firstly Sheridan must be placed on the highest PL ship, that would be the Carrier, raising it to Armageddon level. So his fleet wouldn't fit into 4 War.

Secondly, against a White Star-heavy ISA fleet, I'd take scouts, scouts and more scouts. They absolutely pwn White Stars due to Accurate negating Dodge, double damage negating Adaptive Armour, SAP meaning you'll usually hit with most ADs against hull 5, your SM is superior to his 2/90, and your scout ability making sure those last few ADs strike home. If he puts fighters as interceptors, split your fire: 1 or 2 AD against the fighter first should kill it (can't dodge, you're Accurate!), then the remaining ADs on the WS. He'll soon run out of fighters.

As usual with White Stars, keep hitting one until its dead, then move on to the next. Don't spread your fire too much. And don't be afraid to run away to regenerate: asteroid fields are your friend! You get all your crits and damage points back, whereas he keeps his crew loss, vital crits and any crits he can't repair. So run away for a few turns, and come back at full strength!

 

[GhostRecon]

It would be helpful to know what sort of Gaim ships he took.

But, while I'm not math genius, it seems your ISA opponent took a bit more than 4 War;

Just the 1 Whitestar Carrier, 8 Whitestars, and 8 Bluestars brings him, essentially, up to his limit (With 4 patrol points left over): How did he ever fit in Sheridan? Admirals raise the Priority of the ship they're on by one, and you need to have at least five allocation points to field one. Also, burger is incorrect; you can put your Admiral on any ship you want, he just raises its priority by one. Sheridan can't even be fielded on a Whitestar Carrier, per his rules.

Seems to me like your ISA opponent either messed up his FAP breakdown on accident, or on purpose.

As for Tactics, use your Scouts to kill the enemy fighters; They're accurate for a reason! I'd also have taken another Stalker, or a mountain of Shadow Fighters (Though I'm sure the real Shadow players will have better advice than I).

Further, Adaptive Armor reduces hits by 1/2, down to a minimum of 1. You will always do 1 damage; Further, they still do crew damage, and self-repair doesn't give you back crew, which is why decrewing is the best way to kill Adaptive Armor ships like the Whitestar.

 

[Da Boss]

could always go with 4 war points of fighters - :shock: Oh wait NO so NO :lol:

Scouts is the thing here as Burger says - the stalker is OK but if the situation you outline - 2 Scouts is just better IMHO.

Which Gaim ships? - ie how cheesy was he / she playing, hope not three of the very dodgy Skirmish level Queens .......... :wink:

Terrain is good if there is any but Call to Arms scenario means both players have to agree.....................

 

[Triggy]

GhostRecon - Burger is right, Admirals have to be placed on the highest PL ship avaialble, which in this case is the WS Carrier.

Also, this fleet isn't taking a legal breakdown of FAP splits - the WS Carrier is 1 War point, 8 White Stars are two more and the Blue Stars take up some of the last one and this can't be shared with the FAP spend on "allies". Don't forget you can't split FAPs into four Raid PL choices then split one of those down to four Patrol PL choices. Check out the resources thread stickied at the top of the forum for more info on how to split your FAPs.

 

[mollari_uk]

Sorry, should have said. This was a campaign game. My fleet was everything I had. His fleet was legal as Sheridan was placed on the highest ship (WhiteStar) at the time of his purchase. Anyway the exact numbers aren't the point. Just general tactic ideas for the future is what I need.

If he puts fighters as interceptors, split your fire: 1 or 2 AD against the fighter first should kill it (can't dodge, you're Accurate!), then the remaining ADs on the WS. He'll soon run out of fighters.

Here's where I didn't realise this could happen. I thought that if I split he'd still get the INT but I guess if I shot the fighters first with 1AD each then the remaining 4AD would hit the WS without his INTs. Is that correct? If so, there's an advantage I did use.

As usual with White Stars, keep hitting one until its dead, then move on to the next. Don't spread your fire too much.

Yeah, I realised this one after the battle. You've just confirmed my thoughts

And don't be afraid to run away to regenerate: asteroid fields are your friend! You get all your crits and damage points back, whereas he keeps his crew loss, vital crits and any crits he can't repair. So run away for a few turns, and come back at full strength!

This wasn't an option. No terrain.

Thanks for the tips. I think I've gone from "This is impossible" to "Perhaps I would have had a chance". However the Ship beams are pathetic against WS, but I guess I'll have to live with that.

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

I had a campaign where I had 2 Marathons, an Apollo, a Delphi, a Hyperion, and a Poseidon against pretty much 4 Mothership, a Shadow Omega, and Shadowcloak fillers.

I destroyed the Shadow Omega, and his Motherships proceded to rip every ship I had apart. The entire reason for that is my weapons couldn't break stealth and he rolls an average of 16 dice on his beams for his Mothership. And I do mean, average. A good roll for him is 26 dice. I fled with the Poseidon, Apollo, and 1 Delphi. That's it.

Dark Angel

 

[GhostRecon]

GhostRecon - Burger is right, Admirals have to be placed on the highest PL ship avaialble, which in this case is the WS Carrier.

Was about to say "OMG WHERE IS THAT" then I caught it; my bad. Regardless, this scenario's points are already illegal as far as fielding an Admiral is concerned, you need 5 FAP in order to allowably field one... not to mention he didn't have enough points to afford the Allies, or the Admiral, in addition to the ISA ships.

However, it does state that Sheridan can't be fielded on a Whitestar Carrier:

Captain Sheridan may be placed in one of the following ships. Variants may be used if you wish to include them in your
games.

Earth Alliance
Hyperion-class destroyer
Omega-class destroyer

Interstellar Alliance
Victory-class destroyer
White Star
White Star WSC-2

Regardless, Da Boss and Burger have given you excellent advice, I would have to say.

 

[Methos5000]

GhostRecon - Burger is right, Admirals have to be placed on the highest PL ship avaialble, which in this case is the WS Carrier.

Was about to say "OMG WHERE IS THAT" then I caught it; my bad. Regardless, this scenario's points are already illegal as far as fielding an Admiral is concerned, you need 5 FAP in order to allowably field one... not to mention he didn't have enough points to afford the Allies, or the Admiral, in addition to the ISA ships.

However, it does state that Sheridan can't be fielded on a Whitestar Carrier:

Captain Sheridan may be placed in one of the following ships. Variants may be used if you wish to include them in your
games.

Earth Alliance
Hyperion-class destroyer
Omega-class destroyer

Interstellar Alliance
Victory-class destroyer
White Star
White Star WSC-2

Regardless, Da Boss and Burger have given you excellent advice, I would have to say.

Sheridans list is actually incorrect anyway. The White Star WSC-2 no longer exists, when 2nd Ed came out they must have just copied the his 1st Ed ship list. It would be nice if we could get an update from someone at Mongoose as to which ships he can be on. Canon from the show has him on a Bluestar but thats not currently an option either.

Technically going by the RAW for the ISA he can only be put on the White Star or the Victory as the White Star II is not the same as the White star WSC-2.

 

[Taran]

Firstly Sheridan must be placed on the highest PL ship, that would be the Carrier, raising it to Armageddon level. So his fleet wouldn't fit into 4 War.

The rules for Sheridan state, quite plainly, that he can only be placed on a Hyperion, Omega, White Star, White Star II, or the Excalibur. No requirement to place him on the highest priority ship in the fleet. That appears to just be for the admirals you choose to create...

But that is another part of the rules that can really use some clarification. RAW state that regardless of the rest, the fleet must be AT LEAST 5 FAP to include an admiral. So how does a player work that in a campaign game where 4 FAP may be his entire remaining fleet, including his Admiral?

 

[Tzarevitch]

I played with my Shadows against an ISA fleet in a 4pt War Call to Arms.

I had: 2 Ships , 1 Stalker, 6 Scouts.

He had (approx): 1 Carrier, 8 WhiteStars, 3 Gaim ships, 8 Bluestars and Sheridan (I think thats all).

It was going ok to start with but after turn 3 I was 4 scouts and 1 Stalker down and I'd only managed to kill 1 Whitestar. So I fled.

The main problem wasn't initiative sinks, it was Dodge + AA + CBD + INT (from fighters). My scounts did no damage with every shot, my ships did only 1 good shot (around 70+ damage reduced to about 20!!). Everything else missed every time or got reduced to virtually 0.

My only tactical error was probably charging my scouts forward thinking they'd actually do something.

So, anyone got any tips or is the ISA a no-no for the Shadows?

As has been said, scouts can maul whitestars. The shadows do just fine against the ISA. Honestly I am not sure how you could win with what you had against what he had unless he does something stupid. His fleet is a lot more powerful than yours. If the rules allow it, I would try to wreck a ship or 2 then jump out.

Tzarevitch

 

[Burger]

Firstly Sheridan must be placed on the highest PL ship, that would be the Carrier, raising it to Armageddon level. So his fleet wouldn't fit into 4 War.

The rules for Sheridan state, quite plainly, that he can only be placed on a Hyperion, Omega, White Star, White Star II, or the Excalibur. No requirement to place him on the highest priority ship in the fleet. That appears to just be for the admirals you choose to create...

Sheridan is listed under the Admirals section. He is a special case of an Admiral, so all the admiral rules apply to him also. You can't just read the Sheidan text, and completely ignore the context under which it is written! Sheridan can't be placed on a WS Carrier, I was wrong about that - but, he can't be placed on a normal White Star if there is a WS Carrier in the fleet because he must be placed on the highest PL ship. That does bring up something interesting though, in campaign games, would the fleet be legal? Sheridan is on the White Star because it was the highest PL ship at the time he was bought. But then could you field his WS and a WS Carrier? RAW says no because the admiral must be on the highest PL ship. So you could only field Sheridan's ship if you didn't take anything above Raid.

Anyway back on topic. In campaign games, as Shadows, you have to remember your doubled RR's for replacing ships. If you are defender, even losing one Scout will make it a phyrric victory. To replace your scout costs you 24RR, and you'll get +5 for winning the battle. So you're down 19RR. But if you just let the enemy win, you lose 15RR. If you're attacke its no better: you lose 24RR for losing a scout, gain 15 for winning, net loss of 9RR. If you just out when things look bad or when the enemy fleet seems too much for you, you lose nothing. So, knowing when to fight and when to not bother turning up, is very important!!

If you really need convincing that Shadows can take on ISA, I suggest a trial game. 5 Scouts against 5 White Stars. It will be fun... for the Shadow player! Just make sure the ISA player isn't a sore loser...

 

[mollari_uk]

Regarding Admirals in a campaign see this Rulesmaster post:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=30426&highlight=admirals

I would say once he's purchased the rules on what ship he's on don't apply, as you could pay to put him on a skirmish ship, so surely you're not then restricted to only fielding skirmish ships!

 

[Burger]

That rulesmastes post doesn't address the issue... the rules as written say the admiral must be on the highest PL ship in your fleet. There's nothing in the campaign rules to overrule this.

 

[Locutus9956]

I would say you would have to move him to the highest legal ship you can field in that scenario. However in the case of Sheridan rather than generic admirals as was the case here I dont think the rules have been broken since you CANT put sheridan on a WSC, he is already ON the highest ship he can be legally put on in that scenario.

 

[Burger]

I would say you would have to move him to the highest legal ship you can field in that scenario. However in the case of Sheridan rather than generic admirals as was the case here I dont think the rules have been broken since you CANT put sheridan on a WSC, he is already ON the highest ship he can be legally put on in that scenario.

One rule says he must be placed on the highest PL ship in the fleet, and another says he can't be placed on the WS Carrier. If you try to field Sheridan in the battle then you will be breaking one of those rules. Therefore you can't field him.

 

[mollari_uk]

Matt said this:

When your admiral first arrives, he must go on the highest PL ship possible. However, once you spend 5 RR, you can place him on any ship you like - you pays your money, you takes your chances!

That says that he can go on any ship in the Fleet. Further down they discuss putting him on a fighter. Surely Matt would have said "but then you can only ever field fighters"!

IMO, the ships you take to a battle aren't the whole fleet. It's just ships you select to go to the battle. Hence the rule doesn't apply.

 

[Burger]

That says that he can go on any ship in the Fleet. Further down they discuss putting him on a fighter. Surely Matt would have said "but then you can only ever field fighters"!

Just because he didn't say it, doesn't mean it isn't so. His answers can quite often be brief, simply clarifying the rules, expecting us to fill in the rules that are actually written in the book.

 

[mollari_uk]

Yes ok. This should be put on Rulesmasters then.

 

[mollari_uk]

I will never doubt you again Burger! An official response:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=497834