Shadows of Sindal question or typo?

[MasterGwydion]

Hey all! On page 47 of Shadows of Sindal, it says that Prince Richter has a Broadsword-class Mercenary Cruiser. It is My understanding that these vessels are unstreamlined, but in this adventure, this ship is parked in the Starport of the Floating Palace? Is this a mistake or do I have bad information as to the Broadsword-class ships?

 

[paltrysum]

The Floating Palace is in orbit, so a Broadsword could dock there without requiring streamlining.

 

[MonkeyX]

Huh, I always assumed the palace was at cloud level at best while it hovered over a Drinax. Interesting.

 

[Andrewmoreton]

My impression is that the Palace is in atmosphere because :-
1) The King can go Hurricane boxing
2) In the final battle it mentions the palace rising into Orbit as a suprise combat maneuver and that doing so is fatal for the palace

A Broadsword I think should be able to land with antigrav and so on there is no atmospheric maneuvering so a straight up and down at low velocity should be fine, not like say a Harrier which can do atmospheric maneuvering

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Floating Palace is in orbit, so a Broadsword could dock there without requiring streamlining.

Book 2 of Pirates of Drinax, page 261 states,

"The Palace Rises: The Floating Palace is not a
spaceship. It is not even airtight. But if it seems as
though the day is lost, then the palace rises from
the surface of Drinax, gravity-engines howling as
they are pushed far beyond the redline. Atmosphere
vents from a hundred unsealed cracks and hatches.
Gargoyles and statues crack and float away into
the void, forming a short-lived ring of relics around
Drinax. The palace will not survive this last gesture
– but it brings its massive defence cannons into the
battle, which are worth +10 Fighting Strength."

So this would seem to disprove your theory that the Floating Palace is an orbital station as it is not even air-tight.

 

[kevinknight]

The Broadsword has partial streamlining which means it can operate inside an atmosphere as long as it takes things slowly. See CRB p. 152

Partial streamlining allows a ship to skim gas giants
and enter Atmosphere codes of 3 or less, acting in the
same way as streamlined ships. In other atmospheres,
the ship will be ponderous and unresponsive, reliant
on its thrusters to keep it aloft. All Pilot checks will be
made with DM-2.

 

[paltrysum]

The Floating Palace is in orbit, so a Broadsword could dock there without requiring streamlining.

So this would seem to disprove your theory that the Floating Palace is an orbital station as it is not even air-tight.

By the letter, I suppose not, but Drinax already has a very thin atmosphere. It stands to reason that it wouldn’t get any thicker at the altitude of the Floating Palace. I would house rule that standard configuration ships could land there without issue.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Floating Palace is in orbit, so a Broadsword could dock there without requiring streamlining.

So this would seem to disprove your theory that the Floating Palace is an orbital station as it is not even air-tight.

By the letter, I suppose not, but Drinax already has a very thin atmosphere. It stands to reason that it wouldn’t get any thicker at the altitude of the Floating Palace. I would house rule that standard configuration ships could land there without issue.

Okay. Fair enough. I may go that route then as well. Thanks!

 

[Garran]

2) In the final battle it mentions the palace rising into Orbit as a suprise combat maneuver and that doing so is fatal for the palace

While I agree that the palace normally sits inside what little atmosphere Drinax has, I don't think that it would necessarily be a problem for it to go into orbit (beyond the obvious problems for its occupants what with it not being airtight) under its normal flight protocols.

However, it's presumably designed to float about in a stately fashion, not pull a combat-thrust maneuver; it's expressly described as going way beyond redline to join the fray during that event. So, it's less a matter of "whoops, orbital altitude is inherently fatal" and more one of a subsequent, uncontrolled descent-to-surface due to structural damage and fried drive systems.

 

[Condottiere]

The same technology that allows the Floating Palace to do so, will ensure that a spaceship configured like a brick will be able to fly through the atmosphere.

 

[MasterGwydion]

2) In the final battle it mentions the palace rising into Orbit as a suprise combat maneuver and that doing so is fatal for the palace

While I agree that the palace normally sits inside what little atmosphere Drinax has, I don't think that it would necessarily be a problem for it to go into orbit (beyond the obvious problems for its occupants what with it not being airtight) under its normal flight protocols.

However, it's presumably designed to float about in a stately fashion, not pull a combat-thrust maneuver; it's expressly described as going way beyond redline to join the fray during that event. So, it's less a matter of "whoops, orbital altitude is inherently fatal" and more one of a subsequent, uncontrolled descent-to-surface due to structural damage and fried drive systems.

Except in the write-up. the Palace is damn near destroyed by ascending to orbit, not merely descending, with it's atmosphere escaping, depressurizing, and parts breaking off the Palace and floating away.. For the Palace, this is literally a suicide run. So unless the vehicle is designed for it's environment, which the Palace is not, the Palace is FUBARed. It basically survives long enough to make a difference in the battle, but is then out of commission with incredibly high casualties. This is not exactly what you want to happen when you try and use a ship not designed for use in an atmosphere as well. Equipment failure and death.

So My question for you is this. Why do you think the Palace would have "normal flight protocols" that will invariably kill everyone on board not in a Vacc Suit? Followed by, "Why do you think a ship, not designed for entering atmospheres, could land perfectly safely in an atmosphere?" A semi-controlled crash landed with minimal injuries or casualties, sure, but an actual controlled landing at Starport located on a moving structure, not a chance. It would be like trying to land an ISS module on an aircraft carrier. It is simply not designed to do that.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The same technology that allows the Floating Palace to do so, will ensure that a spaceship configured like a brick will be able to fly through the atmosphere.

A brick with all smooth edges with no protrusions, antennae, or other such things, sure, but then it would be partially streamlined. I guess part of the issue here is that the Broadsword-class is listed as not being streamlined and listed as having a spherical hull, which is automatically partially streamlined. So this could be an edition issue, a holdover from an earlier version of Traveller, getting mixed up with new information in MgT2. The outdated information may be that the Broadsword-class is not streamlined, when according to MgT:Highguard, it should be a Partially Streamlined Hull for a Spherical Hull. MgT: Highguard page 11

 

[Garran]

Except in the write-up. the Palace is damn near destroyed by ascending to orbit, not merely descending, with it's atmosphere escaping, depressurizing, and parts breaking off the Palace and floating away.

The Palace Rises: The Floating Palace is not a spaceship. It is not even airtight. But if it seems as though the day is lost, then the palace rises from the surface of Drinax, gravity-engines howling as they are pushed far beyond the redline. Atmosphere vents from a hundred unsealed cracks and hatches. Gargoyles and statues crack and float away into the void, forming a short-lived ring of relics around Drinax. The palace will not survive this last gesture – but it brings its massive defence cannons into the battle, which are worth +10 Fighting Strength.

So we have statues breaking off, not entire parts of the palace breaking off. Yes, there's a problem with the atmosphere escaping - which I noted, and is not good for the occupants unless they get into vacc suits - but there's nothing to effect of "complete structural failure due to altitude/vacuum".

The real problem per that description is the grav engines being run way over their limits. Again, I don't see the issue there being that it's going too high but that it's going way too fast (because rising at its typical travel speed wouldn't get it anywhere near the battle in time).


As for its normal flight operations, I did not argue that taking it up there (without doing something to deal with the atmosphere leakage issue, anyway) would be a good idea. I just don't see it as something that would inherently cause the palace to fall apart physically if it did so at a normal speed. (Causing the occupants to fall apart physically if they didn't get their vacc suits on, sure.) And it's already operating at altitude in a place with a very thin atmosphere, so it can't be THAT susceptible to pressure problems. For that matter, Drinax probably had a standard or near-standard atmosphere originally, and the palace would have been built accordingly; it would have already blown itself apart in the newly-very thin atmosphere if it was that fragile.

 

[Garran]

A brick with all smooth edges with no protrusions, antennae, or other such things, sure, but then it would be partially streamlined. I guess part of the issue here is that the Broadsword-class is listed as not being streamlined and listed as having a spherical hull, which is automatically partially streamlined. So this could be an edition issue, a holdover from an earlier version of Traveller, getting mixed up with new information in MgT2. The outdated information may be that the Broadsword-class is not streamlined, when according to MgT:Highguard, it should be a Partially Streamlined Hull for a Spherical Hull. MgT: Highguard page 11

Someone was probably just being loose with terminology. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen something like "nonstreamlined" used to mean a standard (and therefore partially streamlined) hull in discussions. (Dispersed/not-at-all streamlined hulls seem to be uncommon enough to get called out by name whenever they show up.)

 

[MasterGwydion]

A brick with all smooth edges with no protrusions, antennae, or other such things, sure, but then it would be partially streamlined. I guess part of the issue here is that the Broadsword-class is listed as not being streamlined and listed as having a spherical hull, which is automatically partially streamlined. So this could be an edition issue, a holdover from an earlier version of Traveller, getting mixed up with new information in MgT2. The outdated information may be that the Broadsword-class is not streamlined, when according to MgT:Highguard, it should be a Partially Streamlined Hull for a Spherical Hull. MgT: Highguard page 11

Someone was probably just being loose with terminology. It wouldn't be the first time I've seen something like "nonstreamlined" used to mean a standard (and therefore partially streamlined) hull in discussions. (Dispersed/not-at-all streamlined hulls seem to be uncommon enough to get called out by name whenever they show up.)

The more research I do on this topic, this seems to be the most likely reason, changing terminology between editions. Maybe they will update the Broadsword to current MgT specs in the upcoming MgT2 Highguard book? Matt? lol

 

[Condottiere]

It's a question of speed within the atmosphere.

A brick going dead slow doesn't have to worry that much about aerodynamics, and gravitic motors are basically brute force.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It's a question of speed within the atmosphere.

A brick going dead slow doesn't have to worry that much about aerodynamics, and gravitic motors are basically brute force.

Agreed, but withing the Traveller Universe, a dispersed structure hull can't enter an atmosphere, no matter how slow they are going.

Also, wind speed is a thing even if you are standing still, but one would think that buildings would be designed to handle up to a certain amount of windspeed, Likely hurricane+ strength. So going 200 miles per hour, how long does it take to reach orbit?

But a ship, that isn't designed to operate in a atmosphere wouldn't have that same protection, so even mere wind would tear it apart.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Dispersed structure - anything that you can't neatly into a category and is structurally unsound; if it's armoured, maybe.

2. I think the ship in question is the Broadsword, so there are two aspects.

3. It weighs in at eight hundred tonnes.

4. And it can anchor itself with a factor three manoeuvre drive.

5. So it would depend on how much force the hurricane can exert against it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

1. Dispersed structure - anything that you can't neatly into a category and is structurally unsound; if it's armoured, maybe.

2. I think the ship in question is the Broadsword, so there are two aspects.

3. It weighs in at eight hundred tonnes.

4. And it can anchor itself with a factor three manoeuvre drive.

5. So it would depend on how much force the hurricane can exert against it.

M-3 Drive is fine. I doubt power would ever be an issue, but ship control surfaces or the lack thereof would. If the wind flips you over it doesn't harm you or your ship, but now instead of your M-3 Drive controlling your descent through the planet's atmosphere, it is now pulling you down towards the planet itself. You are not designed to operate in an atmosphere and therefore, do not have atmospheric control surfaces. You have some kind of thruster system that is designed to operate in a vacuum. I have no idea what those thruster systems are, but My guess is that they don't work good in an atmosphere, so now you can't flip the ship back over. You can change direction on the M-3 Drive to stop accelerating downward to resume descent, but you will be spinning one direction or another, all of the way down, making piloting nearly impossible. (The figure of speech, not the Difficulty. lol)

I am way outside of the rules on all of that, but it just seems to make sense if you consider "Unstreamlined" to mean not designed for use in an atmosphere. In MgT2, it would be "Partially Streamlined" since a Broadsword is built on a Spherical Hull. So if the ships ever get updated to MgT2, then they will be golden!

 

[Condottiere]

1. Will the hurricane buffeting substantially move the Broadsword away from it's flight path?

2. Will the buffeting effect the crew and components? The answer is no, due to inertial compensation.

3. Will it damage the hull? Armoured, I believe.

4. Can you outrun the hurricane? Probably.


In terms of mass, smallcraft are probably in danger, but atmospheric turbulence for the larger ones, in likelihood, gets less so the larger it becomes, regardless of configuration. Maybe unarmoured dispersed.