Shadow Fighters - Just why

[Sulfurdown]

I'm a pretty new player playing against pretty new players so maybe it's not the usual tactice, but I find theres normally a swarm of fighters that dogfight each other in-between the two fleets in turn 2-3. This is what I mean by a fighter screen. I also find that fighters oftain go after other fighters, so the shadow fighters can draw enemy fighters to isolated parts of the battlefield before escaping to hyperspace.

The hyperspace/launch tube thing should compensate for the fighters slow speed (I'd prefer this to an increased speed). As for the off-side weapons, Hull 5, shields and 3+ dodge. This should be something shadow fighters are good at, even better than the Nial IMO as stealth can be beaten.

The current discussion on the FDT leaves the Shadow Fighters vulnerable to a free round of enemy fire (granted they are resilient buggers against standard weapons) and then they suffer the same problems as if they had been deployed from the 3" of the launching vessel as they still have to close on Capital ships and evade the interceptor fighters. A pair of Nial have a good chance of running down Shadow Fighters before they could jump out or attack ships and could probably take out a Shadow Fighter and tie up another with only one Nial unless the Shadow player makes sure his ships are spread out (which means they can get fewer on any target and are therefore more vulnerable to AF/AAF traits)

 

[inq101]

I would always trade the fighter Launcher for a higher speed. The Launcher is a specific option thats not always useable and does not work for bought Patrol flights. The launcher will only help you want to deploy the fighters "far" away. If there is still the "use Launcher or Shot" rule there is no really anything to decide at all ... i will shot

But combine the launcher AND hzperspace (I agree that Id normalz rather shoot stuff) and I think it does compensate.

Stealth can be reduced and/or beaten - yes. But this is one defense option that will help a fighter not getting hit at all.

As fighters will normallz want be close to their target so they can do damage, stealth will oftain suffer anzwaz. Shields also gives you somthing against accurate weapons or energz mines (I love mz photon bombs.

edit: Sorry about the spelling, my keyboard has reset to german. At least I can do this ßüöä

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Since when do Shadow Fighters have stealth? :?

 

[inq101]

I compared there survivability against secondary weapons to a Nial.

 

[Sulfurdown]

So far the suggestions for 'rebalancing' Shadow fighters as I've heard them are (as an incremental move so they hopefully won't swing to the absurd power on the other end of the scale);

Scenario/Tourney -
Add another flight per wing.
Allow Shield to work versus AF/AAF
Increase the Dogfight score

Campaign -
Eliminate the double cost for ancient fighters
Add Carrier 1 trait to the Shadow Ship (Young/Ancient)


Anything I missed?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Fleet special rule that in campaigns, all Shadow ships carrying Fighters regain them for free without the carrier trait.

 

[Right Hand of God]

I had 36 of these evil little buggers drop in from hyperspace onto my right flank and cause havoc in my squadrons of Vorchans in a recent game. The tactical advantage of having them in hyperspace to use where and when you want is a huge ofset

They are fine, and do their job well if used correctly. What they need is a change in the campaign rules to bring the cost of replacements in line with other fleets, same applies to the Volons, and the Armageddon level Cruiser needs the fleet carrier trait.

 

[Sulfurdown]

What kind of points were you using for the engagement? That's 18 patrol points of fighters.

 

[Sulfurdown]

I compared there survivability against secondary weapons to a Nial.

Versus AF
AF 2 should take down a Nial, AF 3 should take down a Shadow

Versus standard weapons;
24AD - ; should take down a Nial (after stealth, hull, dodge)
*9 AD - ; should take down a Shadow (after hull and dodge)

(*x2.. Shields)

The Nial, as is, tends to be more of an interceptor than a point defence or an anti-ship or a multirole fighter considering it's vulnerability to AF/AAF and it's speed and dogfight.

EDIT:
But if you're using the Nial like Iain McGhee had suggested the Shadows be used in the "Carrier trait" thread and hunt ships without the AF trait, the Nial is definitely a more survivable craft and it's debatable if it's better at it's job, as any ships with interceptors or hull 6 are more vulnerable to the Nial. At the same time a ship without interceptors at hull 4 is more vulnerable to the Shadows.

EDIT2:

Fleet special rule that in campaigns, all Shadow ships carrying Fighters regain them for free without the carrier trait.

The only reason I would suggested a Carrier 1 trait instead of the special rule is that the Carrier 1 would be slower to restore fighters but would also allow the fighters to be fielded from Shadow ships into priority levels the big ships would never be able to enter. Though a special rule would require less rewriting of books/ships.

 

[inq101]

I compared there survivability against secondary weapons to a Nial.

Versus AF
AF 2 should take down a Nial, AF 3 should take down a Shadow

Versus standard weapons;
24AD - ; should take down a Nial (after stealth, hull, dodge)
9 AD - ; should take down a Shadow (after hull and dodge)

Don't forget the shields on the shadow fighter. You need an average of 18 AD to take it down in one turn. It also needs at least two hits in one turn to destroy it (even a quad damage hit will only strip the fighters single shield), and the shield is repaired each turn.

Fighters often seem to be close to other ships, so stealth is less affective. Factor in accurate weapons, e-mines, etc. and I think that shadow fighters begin to form a pretty tough bomber.

I do agree that it should be changed (I like the carrier 1 idea), but disagree that it is useless as it is.

 

[Target]

The real problem with the shadow fighter is in low priority games you know that the Shadows have to take them. You can defend aganst them very easily by either using a carrier or taking a few flights yourself which will clean the skies of them real quick & the Scout can't help them at all. It leaves all your firepower for the scout with it's mighty range 8". With range 2" they have come close to your ships where your fighters smash them either with superior dogfight score or numbers. Even the Kotha will get them, doesn't matter how fast the shadow is or where he came from, your fighters can get him. He has to come to you while you hunt the scout/scouts. If you can't win intinative just escort it's that simple. No fancy tactics there at all. 8 Kotha vs 2 Shadows, 6 Star Snake & the list goes on. Using the Disperal Tube only works if he a War lvl ship where it's the ship you are worried about & he won't have many fighters in fact he will be trying to stop yours from chipping away at his shields. By moving his fighters in to attack he just giving you targets to fire at with your secondary weapons which probably can't fire at anything else anyway.
Lack of a fleet list is what really kills the Shadow fighter, no support for it.

 

[katadder]

like i said if kothas are dogfighting you then you are doing something wrong. you should always move to suit you and shoot the kotha from 2" away. 3AP shots versus kotha should kill it, and even if it doesnt they need 6s to hit you back and then need 2 failed dodges to kill the shadow fighter.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

unless the Kothas are escorting the capital ships, perhaps? You close to fire and they automatically engage in a dogfight. Oops.

 

[Sulfurdown]

like i said if kothas are dogfighting you then you are doing something wrong. you should always move to suit you and shoot the kotha from 2" away. 3AP shots versus kotha should kill it, and even if it doesnt they need 6s to hit you back and then need 2 failed dodges to kill the shadow fighter.

5AD AP should kill a Kotha (Dodge means you need 3 hits to have the odds of a kill, Hull 4 means you need about 4.5AD AP to secure the 3 hits) and the Kotha have equal dogfight to the Shadow, they can act almost as an area denial tool for the Abbai, and with the few Escort ships under Abbai command, that AF can reach out through the field of Kotha to strike down a lot of Shadows. If not, it still ties up your patrol point for an average of 8 turns to simply get through an equal point of those Kotha, most games have been decided by then. Though you do raise a good point in that the Shadows have superior initiative (unless the younger races are outfitting a lot of advanced Admirals and command ships) and that should be a something we are aware of when looking at things like dogfight. Interceptors need high Init to catch the Shadows unless you let them (or they have enough to set up a dragnet) but Point Defence fighters like the Kotha will still be able to prevent a clean Anti-Ship run by establishing a escort form those capitals.


And inq101 is right, I keep forgetting the final x2 for the shields when it comes to standard damage against the fighters.

 

[Voronesh]

And please lets not forget an Abbai players ability to buy into a Brikorta and get 4 Falkosi with a dogfight score of +1 and 16" speed.

Falkosis can allow themselves to dawdle around their own ships.
Now Falkosis get to move first: They jump your Shadow fighters and mop them up with a rather high chance.
If not, you get to shoot a ship for a turn, but prolly cannot move far away during the second turn to safe your fighters. If you can, you are still breaking off an attack run. This assumes that the Falkosi are more than 16" away from your intial position. Basically all he has to do is form up the fleet with the Falkosis in the center and you can do jack about it. Yes i know it would be a hard thing to do, but basically in a low pl lvl game, it wont be a big fleet anyway ^^.
Shadow fighters move first: you jump the ship, Falkosis jump you. End of story.

 

[katadder]

unless the Kothas are escorting the capital ships, perhaps? You close to fire and they automatically engage in a dogfight. Oops.

you only engage the kothas if firing on the ship they escort, try firing on the kothas only and you are ok.

sure you can get falkosis with their large move but you are then progressing into other fleets which is differant, and +1 isnt guaranteed to win a dogfight. and theres still 8 differance in initiative so you can still control moves etc.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

If you're shooting at the escorting fighters instead of the target you wanted to shoot, you're fighting the way they want you to. You still lose. The Kothas have suppressed your fighters for at least a turn, probably longer, while you shoot your anti-ship weapons at unsuitable targets.

 

[katadder]

no you kill the fighter screen 1st. rather than dogfight it and lose you probably kill the kothas then get to shoot the actual target the next turn.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Needs a few dice to shoot them down, though, and while you're doing that, others can be firing at your fighters. Either way, even if you ace them in one turn's shooting, you've still wasted a turn shooting at worthless fighters when your fighters are made for ship-killing.

 

[katadder]

better to waste a turn shooting fighters than waste a turn in 50/50 dogfights