SF Drones?

[MongooseMatt]

I agree that each boost shield die effectively cancels 1 drone but assuming even a 30 shield ship, that Kzinti attack is reduced to 5 x D6 for an average damage range between 15-20. Your Phaser 1's, even for Gorns and Romulans with their mediocre arcs, can certainly both take out a 5 drones although by no means guaranteed

Add in phasers-3, add in tractor beams, and the defences all soon begins to mount up. Gorn do not have as bad arcs as people imagine (their smaller ships are somewhat restricted, but can freely turn to present the best arc possible to an attacker), as while they have they may have few phasers in each mounting, they overlap a great deal.

That isn't an option for the early series Romulan ships but the Hawk series and certainly the Gorn can do that but, as both are reload dependent fleets, the reactive only/defend with phasers while boosting shields is a defensive/reactive mode and once the plasma tubes are empty, it is a very hard cycle to break as it takes offensive fire to put the other chap, assuming he isn't a Gorn or Romulan, on his defensive and make him react to you.

You can't put the Gorn and Romulans in the same reload way of thinking as the Federation. When a Federation ship fires its photons, it needs to reload, as you don't know where you might get the opportunity to fire again. Gorn and Romulans are different.

As you approach the enemy fleet, either under the cover of boosted shields (which long range drones will just bounce off) or cloak (the ultimate drone defence), your opponent should be _terrified_ of your ships. As you move within 18", the drone waves will intensify, but absorb the damage and, next turn, you will be in range for your plasmas and the tide will turn. Don't be afraid to rush some ships forward under All Power to add a single plasma to the weight of an attack from another (the 'only way to be sure' tactic). Keep as many phasers as you dare trained on his ships and rely more on shields at this point, though he will likely pick on one ship with three and you will be able to go 'full defence' with those and full attack with the rest (I don't usually use the Intensify Defensive Fire, though I have seen others do so - YMMV).

The end result will be a ship or two on your side hurting, shields seriously hammered, maybe a smattering of crits, and a better number on his side all but destroyed.

After that, reload almost at your leisure, as the battle will have shifted in your favour. Some ships will be able to reload immediatly (and will keep your opponent honest), while others will be better suited to repairing shields.

This all assumes a basic 'battle line' approach by both fleets, but there are variations and other tactics that can be used to enhance it. I tend to always have a destroyer, heavy destroyer or light cruiser (or two) on one flank, to keep them out of the main battle line and where they can lend their plasma attacks to the main assault. Fast Cruisers are becoming a favourite in games round here (the common thought that two are needed to travel together).

I am sure others will come up with better ideas, but these are a few we have found to work.

 

[storeylf]

or if you are firing plasmas this turn, next turn you have to chose between boosting shields or reloading and since you'll be down at least that 15-20 points, you're in deep excretory matter.

[...]

That isn't an option for the early series Romulan ships but the Hawk series and certainly the Gorn can do that but, as both are reload dependent fleets,

Afte playing a number of games with Gorn (or Rom) I have to say I agree with what Matt said above. Gorn and Roms are not really bothered so about the reload as much as the likes of Feds. If you have fired your plasma this turn you should not be in deep excretory matter like you say - the other guy probably is, as he is now probably down more ships than you. Plasma ships dump out serious seeker dice when they fire (2 to 3 times the seekers as even kzinti do) and you are not limited by the 3 ships limit.

Enduring 12 AD of drones a turn for a few turns is a lot easier than enduring 36AD of plasma in one go.

Talk of boost shields against drones has come up a few times. That is very game size dependent.

IDF is subject to having no one or only 1 ship succeed, however, the larger the number of ships then the closer you will be to the mean (half your ships succeeding with standard crew quality). Boost shield is subject to rolling crap, getting only a couple of points of extra shields. As the number of ships increases it becomes increasingly likey that some ships will fluff their shields roll.
In other words the more ships you have the better IDF is getting whilst the worst boost shield is getting.

Assuming a crap Boost roll happens 1/6 time (a roll of 4 or less on 2 dice).
And 2 or less IDF ships is bad (and assuming standard crews).

Then at 6 ships you have a 40% chance of 1 crap shields boost and a 27% chance of 2 or more, whilst there is a 34% chance of flunking the IDF.

At 7 ships that becomes a 33% chance of 2+ ships flunking boost shields and a 22% chance of 2 or less IDF ships.

Gorns do well with IDF - those all round phaser1's ensure that whoever is on IDF can cover anyone else in the fleet with several phasers, you don't have to worry to much about the position of the IDF ship.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

it seems only the Federation gets to pick and choose what other Empires weapons are worth having :wink:

Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own.

 

[The Big D]

It occoured to me that against drone armed fleets you probably need to get 2 IDFs working to cover each other. If you only get one then logically you will target all of the drones you can against that one ship as it will have the least availiable defensive fire, i.e. only itself.

So if you only get one IDF then you will want to keep it near the back out of 18" of massed drones.

Obviously all very dependant on game size, fleet disposition and terrain.

Geoff

 

[MarkDawg]

I just think the game would be better off with them curtailed in some way they consume to much of the tactics and it takes me out of the Star Trek feel because I can think about is how to stop the 100 drones that are coming at my ship.

It just seems odd that Drone defense you run out of ammo but if you chuck them in anger you get a magical unlimited supply. This in my opinion is lame maybe give them finite amount.

 

[McKinstry]

After playing a number of games with Gorn (or Rom) I have to say I agree with what Matt said above. Gorn and Roms are not really bothered so about the reload as much as the likes of Feds. If you have fired your plasma this turn you should not be in deep excretory matter like you say - the other guy probably is, as he is now probably down more ships than you. Plasma ships dump out serious seeker dice when they fire (2 to 3 times the seekers as even kzinti do) and you are not limited by the 3 ships limit.

Enduring 12 AD of drones a turn for a few turns is a lot easier than enduring 36AD of plasma in one go.

Talk of boost shields against drones has come up a few times. That is very game size dependent.

IDF is subject to having no one or only 1 ship succeed, however, the larger the number of ships then the closer you will be to the mean (half your ships succeeding with standard crew quality). Boost shield is subject to rolling crap, getting only a couple of points of extra shields. As the number of ships increases it becomes increasingly likey that some ships will fluff their shields roll.
In other words the more ships you have the better IDF is getting whilst the worst boost shield is getting.

I've only played against Romulans once but have probably played 10+ with/against Gorns and it is a rare event to see a plasma fired within 8" but then I go to great lengths to avoid plasma and the Gorns and particularly the Romulans the time I played them (who stayed in cloak for the entire approach), simply don't have the speed or agility to close with Klingons although the newly non-lumbering Gorns are vastly better at closing on Feds and Kzinti than before.

I'm also a huge fan of IDF in place of Boost Shields but agree it is size dependent. It is however vanishingly rare for us to play a game under 1250 with 1500+ more the norm. With a big fleet and assuming decent IDF rolls, I'm still a big proponent of staying as far away as possible while using all my Phaser 1's to shoot the plasma while whacking the Gorns with drones/photons/disruptors and usually it has resulted in not much damage from the plasma salvo and the chance to smite the tar out of the Gorn fleet in the turn thereafter.

A big part of any anti-Gorn/Romulan game is also making sure you have an initiative sink advantage and a command +1 ship, as retaining the ability to move away from plasma threats by making them commit first is a massive help. Given the cost of their ships it is usually possible to get the initiative sink advantage but initiative with the Romulans is always a toss up or better for them. The Gorn should be getting initiative at most, about a third of the time.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

36AD of plasma - sounds great, but on average you will dump around 20 AD of Plasma on one target, BEFORE defensive fire (which Kzinti get a great boost with due to the game mechanics - Plasma's used to laugh at P-3's, now there as good as point blank P-1's). Still, around 12AD of Plasma will make someone's day VERY bad - thats around 42pts average damage anything smaller than a battlecruiser is not well (don't forget criticals).

So, you swap 1 dead ship for 2 baddly damaged ones, then a turn of recieving fire with automatic hits (under 18"). Haven't played vs a drone heavy fleet yet, but see it going that way. Only ships that have 4+ drones would create a major issue, which suprisingly is all Kzinti ships.

Even with this (and the horror of the game i watched 3 Federation cruisers gut a Gorn Dreadnought in one turn) - these are a great set of rules. I can play fleet engagement in a sensible time (roll on the ISC - fleet tactic a speciality)

(

 

[tneva82]

Your analysis is correct - except you miss that you are _supposed_ to use phasers 1 to defend you against drones Also consider boosting shields, as every dice you roll for that does, in theory (and on average) nullifies one drone. Boosting shields before you get hit by drones is best

I agree that each boost shield die effectively cancels 1 drone but assuming even a 30 shield ship, that Kzinti attack is reduced to 5 x D6 for an average damage range between 15-20. Your Phaser 1's, even for Gorns and Romulans with their mediocre arcs, can certainly both take out a 5 drones although by no means guaranteed but unless you are firing plasma this turn, you have now spent a full turn with a major warship doing zero damage from zero offensive action or you can suck up that 15-20m point shield drop. Should you take the hits to be able to make the other fellow at least react somewhat or if you are firing plasmas this turn, next turn you have to chose between boosting shields or reloading and since you'll be down at least that 15-20 points, you're in deep excretory matthe

What you expect though? Kzinzis fire and cause zero damage? Sure. When feds, klingons etc shoot with whole fleet and cause zero damage. With max 3 per target and 5+ to hit thats plenty. Unreasonable to expect no damage in return.

 

[McKinstry]

Absolutely a great set of rules. The Kzinti are hard to play against with the non-ADD fleets but that just makes you sharpen your skills and it feels great to win a game against the fuzzy buggers or those despicably nimble cowardly Klinks.

Beating Feds is however a sign of moral turpitude and should be avoided.

 

[Ben2]

Ran a couple of demo games yesterday at my local club, and because the points were low (400 point games) it meant drones weren't an issue. I was playing Feds against Klingons (BCJ+NCL vs C7, F5, E4) and it was only when a ship was crippled that it started taking drone hits.

With the Romulans in the next game it meant that when a war eagle decloaked to fire it's plasma R it took lots of drone fire as they can't fire phasers that turn.

In small games there are no issues with drones. I'd also say small games are very much about maneuver.

 

[Halfbat]

I've just noticed a nagging, potential misunderstanding hiccup of mine to do with drones and Defensive Fire.

The Intensify Defensive Fire (IDF) Special Action allows drones and phasers to be used to defend friendlies. The Defensive Fire option (vital, I think) in the Advanced Rules details how drones can be used in an anti-drone fashion (1-for-1). The Basic Rules do not mention using drones in anti-drone mode at all, that I can see, other than via the IDF action.

- Are drones in anti-drone mode allowed at all in the Basic Rules?
- Please do confirm that drones can be used in anti-drone mode using the Defensive Fire rule even if IDF isn't being used.

H

 

[Rambler]

H - Looking through the rules I do not see anything barring you from using any Weapon System on you ship in you own defence in the basic game. So if you want to kill Drones with Drones or Photons or Disruptors or Plasma in your own Defence go for it. You can only use Phaser and Drones in IDF (defence of others) though I feel Plasma D should be included in IDF list as well they are not.

 

[deadshane]

I know this is off topic...but...

I just love hearing Matt talk tactics about his game! He seems to echo everything I think about certain situations!

If you come across the pond we need to play Matt! I want to beat you at your own game! :twisted:

 

[JohnDW]

Technically "Defensive Fire" rules are listed under the advanced rules section of the rulebook. So while special actions may be a part of the basic rules, defensive fire is not.

 

[The Big D]

I've just noticed a nagging, potential misunderstanding hiccup of mine to do with drones and Defensive Fire.

The Intensify Defensive Fire (IDF) Special Action allows drones and phasers to be used to defend friendlies. The Defensive Fire option (vital, I think) in the Advanced Rules details how drones can be used in an anti-drone fashion (1-for-1). The Basic Rules do not mention using drones in anti-drone mode at all, that I can see, other than via the IDF action.

- Are drones in anti-drone mode allowed at all in the Basic Rules?
- Please do confirm that drones can be used in anti-drone mode using the Defensive Fire rule even if IDF isn't being used.

H

Drones in anti-drone mode are not in the basic rules. They are a federation only thing which is explained at the start of the federation fleet listing on page 74 (31 of the mini book) under combined drone racks.

Drones shooting down drones in defensive fire as also not in the basic rules either, but in the advanced. As long as that ship is the one under fire then it can use its drones it hasn't fired that turn to shoot down incoming drones.

IDF is of no benefit to the ship itself. It allows phaser and drone defensive fire to be used to protect other ships from incoming seeking weapons as per normal: drones or phasers vs drones, phasers only vs plasma. It can always protect itself.

That is how we've been doing it (not that we've used plasma yet!)

Geoff

 

[Halfbat]

THansk guys, Geoff, and all, for qualming my concerns.

 

[MongooseMatt]

If you come across the pond we need to play Matt! I want to beat you at your own game! :twisted:

You won't find that very hard. Like Ceasar, I tend to only talk about my victories