Sector Fleet

[Alan Hume]

Well, it's my day off today so I headed out to Black Lion Games (my FLGS 8) ) to pick up the latest issue of KOTD and was pleasantly surprised (no, scratch that, really chuffed ) to spot SECTOR FLEET sitting in my grabbag (had it on preorder, heh, I'm such a geek :lol: )

Really looking forward to reading this one, just making a leisurely cup of tea, putting on Planet Rock and grabbing a knife to break the shrinkwrap seal.


REALLY CHUFFED

 

[Treebore]

Well? What do you think?

 

[Garnfellow]

Will this be available as a pdf?

 

[phavoc]

I checked with one of my local hobby stores on obtaining a copy. My contact (the store owner) is saying that the distributor is sold out and they have sold out of the original production run. Which sounds like good news for MgT.

Anyone else having an issue obtaining a copy?

 

[IanBruntlett]

I checked with one of my local hobby stores on obtaining a copy. My contact (the store owner) is saying that the distributor is sold out and they have sold out of the original production run. Which sounds like good news for MgT.

Anyone else having an issue obtaining a copy?

I got mine from Travelling Man in Newcastle. At the time they had a couple of copies left but they might have sold out by now...

 

[MongooseMatt]

I checked with one of my local hobby stores on obtaining a copy. My contact (the store owner) is saying that the distributor is sold out and they have sold out of the original production run. Which sounds like good news for MgT.

Any chance you could let us know which store this is and, if possible, which distributor?

I ask, as we still have this book in stock and can supply them!

 

[phavoc]

I don't know the name of the distributor, but the local game store in question is called Madness Comics and Games. I did see one copy at another local store, however.

 

[MongooseMatt]

That the one in Texas? Cheers, we'll follow this up.

 

[phavoc]

Yep, that's the one. He sent me another email -

"Well, the two largest distributors in the country are both out of stock right now, so I have backorders placed with both. As soon as either get them back in, they'll send them here and I'll let you know."

Seems to be a difference of opinions on stock levels!

 

[Alan Hume]

Well? What do you think?

Sorry for the late reply guys,
just checked back in

I loved it, thought it was a great book, did what I needed it to do and then some 8)

 

[phavoc]

I finally got a copy in at my local hobby store...yay me for getting a special order!

I was scanning through it last night/this morning, and here are some high/lows that I've discovered thus far

Highs
*Very helpful and informative if you have not had a lot of exposure to military, especially naval, activities.

*Packed full of information. It's an easy read, alternating between very officious-type descriptions to more casual ones (i.e. nuclear weapons and nukes in the same paragraph. definitely what you expect from a more user-friendly style work. Not academic and distant).

Lows (not really 'lows'...but its the opposite of highs!)
*It seems some helpful things, like pay rates, that were present in the previous Grand Fleet are missing. No reason why they should have been dropped... woudl have fit well with the format

*There are a number of instances that talk about non-MGT traveller universe. For example the references to jump space still refer to using hydrogen as fuel to power your jump grid, as opposed to the MgT version of no jump grids, and using hydrogen to create a pocket universe.

*Some of the weapon explanations don't quite correlate to MgT rules, such as missiles having multiple warheads (MIRV's). The explanation of what a bay weapon is doesn't address at all the idea that 'bay' is a generic (and horrible) term used to describe internal bays and large external turrets.

*There is an all-too brief discussion of systems and planets and even mercenary forces conducting wars. Some of it seems contradictory, but again, I didn't read it page by page. But the sections I did read seemed to contradict itself (such as when nukes can be used). Would have been nice to have an expanded section on how non-naval things work since that's what a lot of players might be doing... though it IS labeled Sector Fleet, so it would be keeping with the title of the book..

*There's mentions of the different types of ships (strike carriers, etc). Maybe there wasn't room, but would have been nice to have ship stats as well for the Imperial ships. Would have fit quite well with the book.

*There was mention of how ships jump together as a fleet (see the related thread). In the book it talks of some ships being equipped with "very expensive" specialized computers that allow for coordinated fleet jumps that reduce the time a fleet materialzes from jump space to just a few hours. But there is no mention of the cost of this device. In my mind, if it's a "very expensive" piece of specialized hardware, how do just CruRons pop around the sector as a group, especially if they are wargaming or actively fighting? It would have to be far more common to make sense, unless coordinated jumps are only the purview of a battle fleet. It would make more sense that more naval ships were fitted with it, especially escorts, as they have to stay with their charges.

All in all, it's a nice read thus far. More later as I have time.

 

[AndrewW]

*There was mention of how ships jump together as a fleet (see the related thread). In the book it talks of some ships being equipped with "very expensive" specialized computers that allow for coordinated fleet jumps that reduce the time a fleet materialzes from jump space to just a few hours. But there is no mention of the cost of this device. In my mind, if it's a "very expensive" piece of specialized hardware, how do just CruRons pop around the sector as a group, especially if they are wargaming or actively fighting? It would have to be far more common to make sense, unless coordinated jumps are only the purview of a battle fleet. It would make more sense that more naval ships were fitted with it, especially escorts, as they have to stay with their charges.

Maybe only one ship in the fleet needs the specialised computer and the others sync to it?

 

[phavoc]

*There was mention of how ships jump together as a fleet (see the related thread). In the book it talks of some ships being equipped with "very expensive" specialized computers that allow for coordinated fleet jumps that reduce the time a fleet materialzes from jump space to just a few hours. But there is no mention of the cost of this device. In my mind, if it's a "very expensive" piece of specialized hardware, how do just CruRons pop around the sector as a group, especially if they are wargaming or actively fighting? It would have to be far more common to make sense, unless coordinated jumps are only the purview of a battle fleet. It would make more sense that more naval ships were fitted with it, especially escorts, as they have to stay with their charges.

Maybe only one ship in the fleet needs the specialised computer and the others sync to it?

That's the thing that the book alludes to. However, if you think about it, that's not practical at all. There are going to be many, many, many more small ship movements than entire battlefleets. Think a small 4-6 ship group moving out, say a pair of cruisers and 4 escorts. One of those ships has to have the jump coordinator device. So maybe its installed on, say, all ships cruisers and up.

But then you have a battalion of Marines being escorted to a warzone. They are going to be carried in a few 2-3 ships, plus escorts. Which means at least one of those ships are going to need to be equipped with the jump coordinator.

So the concept is not a bad one. But its incomplete. And such a device is going to have civilian needs as well, when there are convoys of merchants being escorted by military or even mercs. One of those ships needs one as well.

 

[Treebore]

So my house ruled device for coordinated jumping is at least alluded to in this book? Cool!

 

[simonh]

So the concept is not a bad one. But its incomplete. And such a device is going to have civilian needs as well, when there are convoys of merchants being escorted by military or even mercs. One of those ships needs one as well.

Just because they have a need for it, doesn't mean it's economically or technically viable for them to have it.

My takeaway from the 'very expensive' comment is that it's probably borderline TL16 tech. As highly experimental systems they may rely on components that are hard to manufacture reliably, or may suffer from short or unpredictable operational lifespans.

I think there's plenty of mileage in the idea that most military deployments will not use co-ordinated jumps, and exploring the tactical and operational effects that has, and that using co-ordinated jumps is something special.

Simon Hibbs

 

[phavoc]

Otoh how often do cruisers and bigger jump around alone? Due to the long message times the big guns mostly stay in the depots or naval yards so they can be used "en block" when the need arises (Say Naval Intelligence detects psyonic weapons in the Sword Worlds)

And from the description of escorts they are not really running WWII style convois but rather more hunter/killer sweeps through individual systems

The final element of escorting Streppies goontroopers to opress a peaceful planet is also covered. The option of jumping in well outside the 100D range is described. And since the navy has to kill the defence ships first anyway the goonyboats can do that and simply wait

Ships are always going to be on the move, whether they are routinely changing their deployments or performing maneuvers. Take the US Navy for example. They are constantly on the move. There's no reason to say a space-based navy would be any different.

And piracy is going to be much more of a problem in Traveller, if you consider how many ships run around armed all the time. Only in very safe core systems would you not consider escorting your prized non-combat vessels.

As far as the goonyboats waiting... well, sure, they could wait a couple of days until after their escorts jumped and engaged the enemy, but your escorts won't know when the ships they are supposed to escort are going to arrive, so either they stooge around the expected jump entry point (which lets any enemy ship know something that is to be guarded is coming through soon), or maybe they get damaged, destroyed or are otherwise engaged and in combat when your transports arrive. Big, fat transports with no escorts.

So I wouldn't want to send someone into a potential battle zone and not have my escorts close by.

 

[phavoc]

So the concept is not a bad one. But its incomplete. And such a device is going to have civilian needs as well, when there are convoys of merchants being escorted by military or even mercs. One of those ships needs one as well.

Just because they have a need for it, doesn't mean it's economically or technically viable for them to have it.

My takeaway from the 'very expensive' comment is that it's probably borderline TL16 tech. As highly experimental systems they may rely on components that are hard to manufacture reliably, or may suffer from short or unpredictable operational lifespans.

I think there's plenty of mileage in the idea that most military deployments will not use co-ordinated jumps, and exploring the tactical and operational effects that has, and that using co-ordinated jumps is something special.

Simon Hibbs

There's no mention of a tech level for this jump coordinator device. Just that its expensive and not fitted on every ship. How expensive, and how few ships have them is left blank.

Battlegroups are formed to fight as a group, unless you deliberately seperate them up. Capital ships are great, but they have their limitations. Escorts are designed to engage the enemy's screening elements while capital ships are engaging other capital ships. Look at how battle fleets have been deployed by navies in the past. A spaceship is not much different than a sea ship. Instead of water they are now in a space 'ocean'. All the other concepts still apply.

 

[phavoc]

[*] Unlike today communication in the OTU takes weeks or month to reach a fleet. Same for status data coming back
[*] Today fleets get "under way" to train in a realistic environment. Spaceships in the 3I don't need that. They can sit at a docking port and do the training since every piece of data seen by the crew is electronic anyway and space has no storms etc.
[*] Strategic mobility is extremly low due to the need for huge amounts of LH2 after each jump. And refuelling is extremly dangerous/complex for the big ships (i.e the AHL should refuel by shuttles

Time for communications to reach HQ and get back is no different than its been for a 1000 years for armies away from their HQ, or far-flung provinces to receive information back from their capital.

As far as training in dock... that's not how it works in today's military either. Yes, there are many tools today to allow for training 'from your desk'. But no military (well, maybe the French. They have those good training manuals, "How to stop the Germans from Invading France by build really expensive Forts") does that. I was in 20 years ago in rocket artillery. We practiced dry firing all the time. But we also conducted live-fire as well. Pretty much all militaries do the same today. It makes sense from an accounting point of view... but makes no sense from a military point of view.

There's all kinds of hydrogen sitting around for a fleet to refuel. If it's dangerous, it's especially important to continually train. Look at carriers and their pilots. Landing on a carrier sucks, but fleets keep up their training tempo because it is. You can't let your skills and reflexes die down or your pilots may just start wiping themselves on your decks. Always a bad (and even more expensive) idea.

Since the time travelled in normal space is very short (from/to 100D) and civilized systems will have non-FTL forces (SDB, monitors) that is not as much of a problem as it seems. The dangers are found in the unsettled systems and those are not commonly visited by the bigger freightlines. Pirats prey on Trampfreighters and small subbies, not on Tukki or Oberlindes.

And to police these systems you don't need fleet assets. That is the job of the escorts. Again just like Nelsons times where Sloops and Frigates where the pirat hunters. A pair of Gazell or Typ-T can take on most pirats with ease

The 100D sphere around a planet is a HUGE volume of space! You can't be everywhere at once. Look at today's piracy problems. Pirates are ranging 1000 miles off the coast of Somalia, the straits around Malaysia are infested with pirate gangs, pirates attack offshore rigs off Nigeria. With our modern navy we can't defeat pirates in skiffs?

Piracy is all about risk vs. reward. If a Tukera lines ship is a big fat target and not escorted or lightly armed, its going to get hit. And even at 6Gs it takes hours to cross a big area. What about all the freighters and ships that are plying the in-system trade routes to outposts, colonies, stations, etc. Like sector fleet (and history says) there are NEVER enough escorts.

[/quote="Somebody"]
Who said anything about "sending out the escorts to attack the planet"? I sure did not. The 3I "Marines" (I know why they are not called that IMTU) are not Uncle Sams Misguided Children. They operate their own ships in the 3I setting.

The attack will most likely be that the battlefleet jumps in, kills/drives off defenders, hunts down SBDs followed by a courier fetching the landing fleet (Composed or troopships AND escorts). That force jumps into a safe staging area (as decribed in SF btw) and then proceeds in system at STL speeds.[/quote]

Every planetary action is not going to involve a massive fleet invasion that is going to need a fleet to crush the opposition. There are going to be far more small brush fires that the Imperium will need to put out than there will be full scale wars. I don't disagree about your premise (though hunting down the SDB's is a HARD task... cause their job is to be hard to kill and harass the enemy while reinforcements come. I doubt anyone will be able to declare a system free of them. It's just too big of a place).

 

[rust]

Look at today's piracy problems. Pirates are ranging 1000 miles off the coast of Somalia, the straits around Malaysia are infested with pirate gangs, pirates attack offshore rigs off Nigeria. With our modern navy we can't defeat pirates in skiffs?

We could, easily. However, those pirates have sanctuaries our modern
navies are not permitted to attack. From a military point of view the eli-
mination of the piracy would not be a problem, but political considera-
tions make it nearly impossible. In a setting where the navy is allowed
to attack and destroy the pirates' bases instead of having to hunt down
pirate ships one by one, things would look very much different.

 

[phavoc]

Look at today's piracy problems. Pirates are ranging 1000 miles off the coast of Somalia, the straits around Malaysia are infested with pirate gangs, pirates attack offshore rigs off Nigeria. With our modern navy we can't defeat pirates in skiffs?

We could, easily. However, those pirates have sanctuaries our modern
navies are not permitted to attack. From a military point of view the eli-
mination of the piracy would not be a problem, but political considera-
tions make it nearly impossible. In a setting where the navy is allowed
to attack and destroy the pirates' bases instead of having to hunt down
pirate ships one by one, things would look very much different.

That is true. However, if you can't find the bases, then piracy remains the problem. And the Imperium is still limited to what it can 'domestically' in a star system. Without proof they are just as helpless as our Navy is.

And how do you determine one ship is pirate and one is not? It's not like they fly the Jolly Roger anymore (or it's electronic equivalent). Pirates are going to try to blend in as much as possible to defeat both the navy and to get closer to their targets.