samurai of legend

[Mixster]

Personally, I think that the OP is trolling.

There again, maybe he is ...

I'm getting more and more convinced to the truth of this statement. But whatever I really like rules debates, and I really don't like it when people get them wrong..

And as for POW becoming too weak:

insight
ride
survival
streetwise
oratory
healing
gambling
art
sing
persistence
perception
drive

Lots of handy skills the characters don't necessarily want to skimp on. Insight and perception very handy, ride particulary important with samurai type of characters(assuming characters are samurai's in a first place). Survival very important, streetwise handy, healing double important with no magical healing available. art and sing while might not be most important certainly have role especially in Heian period where art started to gain ground. Drive is not often needed albeit. Streetwise isn't bad skill either. Gambling is probably useless I'll give that. Persistence is VERY important for Japanese characters as it represents trait they call gaman(crazy folks when they insist on having the school's sport day eventhough incredibly powerful storm is sending wooden planks etc flying through air and basically any piece is nasty projectile weapon. Now thats some persistence). Oratory also handy.

All of those skills, except for Persistence (will be covered later), are only based partly on POW. Which means POW is worse than all of those possible other stats it can be combined with to produce those skills.

Persistence representing Gaman, well how is it not "Ruleplaying" to tell people they can't do stuff like go to school in a storm if they have a low persistence?

Yeah you can do historical Japan without magic, or you could do it with magic. Sure magic probably didn't exist back then, but everyone probably believed it did, so it makes a lot more sense if the characters act like they believe they did. Which they'll do if it actually has an effect. So as such, you are using magic as a tool to get people into the correct historical mindset. Which is IMO one of the greatest advocates of using a magic system.

I'm not telling anyone to use a magic system or not (or judging whether a campaign would be better by it), just pointing out the problems if you do or if you don't.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Sure magic probably didn't exist back then, but everyone probably believed it did, so it makes a lot more sense if the characters act like they believe they did. Which they'll do if it actually has an effect. So as such, you are using magic as a tool to get people into the correct historical mindset. Which is IMO one of the greatest advocates of using a magic system.

I was just about to post the same sentiment - the best way to immerse players in a world where their characters should believe in gods and magic is to get the players to believe it. Obviously Fireball type spells are going a bit too far, but a little bit of Bladesharp or Co-ordination doesn't break reality too much.

 

[DamonJynx]

Unfortunately for us in the modern age, we will never know what was true and what wasn't in the past as none of us have ever experienced it.

So god existed in the year 30 but suddenly dissapeared with no trace :lol:

Funny how gods miracles stopped happening the 2nd science came around...

Also funny how if god is true tells us to do 2 opposite things.

"Do X". Then he also tells us to do precisely opposite. Like saying "you must not kill" and " you must kill" at the same time

I'm not advocating one belief system or another. All I'm saying is that the people who wrote the 'histories' did so from their perspective in their language. Writings that modern and not so modern academics have translated from their perspective. Religions, myths and folklore, are what the people of the times believed happened or have their basis in those beliefs. Are there inconsistencies in these writings, absolutely. As I said we weren't there so we can't know what actually happened.

You posted a topic on a public forum, expect and respect the fact that whilst trying to answer your queries, people may put forward idea's and suggestions to which you don't agree.

If you don't want magic and the supernatural in your game don't use it. But please don't criticise others for offering differing viewpoints. There is no need for it.

 

[Prime_Evil]

In spite of everything, the OP does raise an interesting point. What house rules would you introduce to accommodate pure historical roleplaying or do they work fine as is? How would you modify the combat system and how would you handle healing in such a setting?

 

[hanszurcher]

Sure magic probably didn't exist back then, but everyone probably believed it did, so it makes a lot more sense if the characters act like they believe they did. Which they'll do if it actually has an effect. So as such, you are using magic as a tool to get people into the correct historical mindset. Which is IMO one of the greatest advocates of using a magic system.

I was just about to post the same sentiment - the best way to immerse players in a world where their characters should believe in gods and magic is to get the players to believe it. Obviously Fireball type spells are going a bit too far, but a little bit of Bladesharp or Co-ordination doesn't break reality too much.

I have the opposite view here. If players and GM agreed to a historical setting then using real or red herring magic to corral them into the GM's idea of how the PCs should be played is just another form of railroading (in the negative sense). The players should have the freedom to decide how and what their PCs believe within the agreed upon setting.

There are plenty of ways to reward good role-playing in a historical setting without resorting to immersion breaking magic. Carrot-and-stick techniques for instance. As an example, PCs honoring spirits at the local shrine will gain some mesure of approval from a villages inhabitants. Soap-boxing about the local shaman's quackery and the ignorance of honoring the ancestral spirits will get stones thrown at you. The PC's do not have to believe in magic or gods but should understand the consequences of offending those that do. Just like in the real world.

And this way I can play that mystery solving Columbo-esque Confucian skeptic I've been dreaming about.

 

[soltakss]

In spite of everything, the OP does raise an interesting point. What house rules would you introduce to accommodate pure historical roleplaying or do they work fine as is? How would you modify the combat system and how would you handle healing in such a setting?

The beauty of Legend is that it works perfectly well without magic as with magic.

However, combat is fairly deadly. This means that, without healing magic, there will be a steady churn of PCs. Some people might like this. I'd allow First Aid to be used multiple times if the first time failed - it doesn't break things once and reflects the "Put a bandage on to stop the bleeding, wait 5 minutes, hang on it's still bleeding so put a thicker and tighter bandage on" scenario. Also, I'd say that dead does not mean you are actually dead, but a character can survive for your CON in rounds, allowing First Aid attempts to stabilise the character, even then the character will probably be in dire straights for days, or even weeks, until natural healing kicks in.

Medicinal herbs and potions might speed up healing or stabilise an injured person, but instant healing might break the realism clause.

Samurai liked their swords, so it might be worth giving swords extra abilities based on their craftsmanship, not dlashy ones, but lighter, stronger, sharper.

 

[rust]

What house rules would you introduce to accommodate pure historical roleplaying or do they work fine as is? How would you modify the combat system and how would you handle healing in such a setting?

As a fan of the rather gritty Harnmaster combat system, I would
not see any need for house rules to make combat less lethal, es-
pecially in a purely historical setting - after all, historical combat
was very lethal. The characters already have an ahistorical survi-
val bonus because the most dangerous killers of real history, the
many diseases, are usually not simulated in a setting, so for a tru-
ly historical setting I would not give them any more advantages.

 

[ThatGuy]

In spite of everything, the OP does raise an interesting point. What house rules would you introduce to accommodate pure historical roleplaying or do they work fine as is? How would you modify the combat system and how would you handle healing in such a setting?

This is an interesting question.

To me, the difficult part is that you are reducing all spiritualist to charlatans from the outset. This is a difficult pill for me to swallow. Here is why: Many of the things that spiritualists DO as a result of their faith, do have positive- almost "otherworldly" results. Diet, philosophy, theology, even science- all are a result of the spiritual lens that Japanese life is viewed from. These things have real world ramifications that, while perhaps not "magical" sure seem that way- and are probably most easily simulated with a magic system.

This does not even take into account the political impact and "respect" factor inherent in these professions within Japan...which is HUGE- even today.

Another great example (a bit off topic though) is Voodoo. Many Voodoo spells should not work...but they do...as if by magic. Some of these spells have been reverse engineered and discovered to be clever usages of chemicals and powders mixed to great effect...which seems to me to be best handled by a magic system.

But just imagine how the spell would seem before being explained by science...like the powder that is blown in someones face and lead to paralysis and the slowing of body functions to the point of being able to scientifically pronounce the person dead...only to have them rise again. That would scare the crap out of somebody and seem an awful lot like sorcery. I mean, I know it's scientific, and it still seems like sorcery to me. It's scientifically based and proven, but knowing someone can do it kinda gives me the heebie jeebies. NOW, before this was explained by science it was still happening. Scientific validation did not make the spell work- the spell worked before Scientific Validation, some folks just "didn't Believe it". But the spell could effect those folks too.

Limiting the world to only what is validated by science means that you are simply missing from your game what science can't (yet) explain.

So, what about Herbalists? What system do you use for that?

Long story short (too late!), I think that even if you aren't using "magic" in your setting, using a "magic system" does not have to be a frightening endeavor- nor does it have to compromise your spiritual beliefs (or non-beliefs)- it's a game, do whatever works best and you are comfortable with. A "Magic system" may speak to some of the needs of the setting that are otherwise unspoken for. You don't have to call it a "magic" system. Call it a "Spiritual and Scientific Practices" system and just base it on the Common magic system with a communal, in-game understanding that "this is not magic."

But some type of herbal healing support would be necessary to keep PCs alive, otherwise you are gonna have turnover directly proportional to the amount of combat in your game. Legend/MRQ2 is a game where ONE bad roll can kill you. ONE missed parry, One fumble, one Critical...just one. Maybe the time it would take for the equivalent of a "Heal spell"- which would be an Herbalists poultice might be a number of days instead of minutes, but be less random in it's success.

As far as anyones personal theological ramblings on the validity- or non validity- of Religions, God, or Atheism, or whatever...that's not really what I come to this forum to get...so, yeah, hope whatever is working for you, keeps on working.

 

[Prime_Evil]

In a historical game, I suppose that you might give PCs a certain amount of plot immunity by increasing the importance of Hero Points, but this would tend to give the campaign a cinematic feel. I might also tend to place more emphasis on Heroic Abilities than in a fantasy game.

 

[Loz]

In a historical game, I suppose that you might give PCs a certain amount of plot immunity by increasing the importance of Hero Points, but this would tend to give the campaign a cinematic feel. I might also tend to place more emphasis on Heroic Abilities than in a fantasy game.

Once could argue that, because people in real-life don't have luck or Hero Points, neither should the characters in this game - so even Hero Points might be ditched. And, for Heroic Abilities, which are there to model some of the more OTT abilities evident in film, TV and fiction, they use Magic Points. So, if Magic is none existent, by extension, so are Magic points, so another way of handling Heroic Abilities, or ditching those too, might be needed.

None of the above are deal-breakers: they'll just require some tweaking or up-front decisions on their use, with appropriate player/character expectation management.