samurai of legend

[Loz]

Like all religion in our world. People can BELIEVE that happen but that doesn't make it happen.

True enough.

If you don't believe try getting those effects yourself . Kami has never ever actually caused anything real. They are just that. Folk tales. If Kami's in Samurai era would have actually CAUSED something then it would be possible to have those same effects this day. But nobody has actually been able to provenly do that...

Yes, but this is missing a crucial point. The vast bulk of Japanese, certainly in the Tokugawa period, and definitely much earlier, have a widespread and fundamental belief in the kami. This was supplemented by Buddhism in the early years of the Heian period, bringing with it a deepening of esoteric and mystical belief. If, in your campaign world, the kami and buddhist deities, are merely 'folk-lore', you're not being entirely true to the way the Japanese thought, felt and acted. You can, of course, concentrate solely on the martial nature of Japanese society and completely relegate Shinto and Buddhist priests to the background, but that would be denying a fundamental part of what makes ancient Japan what it is.

Just like Jesus turning water to wine. Nice story, didn't happen.

Ah, you were there, were you..? :wink:

Just because humans BELIEVE something doesn't make it right. Humans have believed in spirits and gods thorough mankinds existance. Doesn't make them real though.

It did to those who believed in them. There may well be a strong case for atheism, but anyone with a strong faith finds the objects of their faith real and powerful: its why faith continues to persist even in an age where science can provide concrete evidence to the contrary.

And humans couple centuries ago were even not that well aware of how world works so were even more likely to believe in what's not real. Christian church tried to make all it could to prevent science from advancing. Likely priests realized even back then science is what's going to cause their influence to drop dramatically. Nobody likes it when their power and riches are threatened.

Very true, but not so of ancient Japan. Science, religion, mysticism and a belief in magic happily co-existed until the arrival of the Jesuits. Before that, Japan was a beautiful example of multi-faith, multi-belief toleration where there was very little perceived threat between schools of thought.

Anyhow, it matters little. I hope that 'Land of the Samurai' helps fuel a superb campaign, however magic and religion are handled.

 

[rust]

In my experience with pseudo-historical campaigns it is very
important for the "feel" of the game that the characters are
convinced that magic, spirits, deities and all that really exist
and have power, even if the players are convinced that all of
this is just nonsense. Therefore I never tell the players whe-
ther the setting's magical elements are real within that set-
ting or not, I just leave it open and occasionally introduce an
unlikely event which seems to be magical. However, the cha-
racters are never able to learn any kind of magic, it is just a
setting element beyond their personal reach.

 

[tneva82]

Yes, but this is missing a crucial point. The vast bulk of Japanese, certainly in the Tokugawa period, and definitely much earlier, have a widespread and fundamental belief in the kami. This was supplemented by Buddhism in the early years of the Heian period, bringing with it a deepening of esoteric and mystical belief. If, in your campaign world, the kami and buddhist deities, are merely 'folk-lore', you're not being entirely true to the way the Japanese thought, felt and acted. You can, of course, concentrate solely on the martial nature of Japanese society and completely relegate Shinto and Buddhist priests to the background, but that would be denying a fundamental part of what makes ancient Japan what it is.

Ummm how am I not true if I don't put any in-game effect for these kami's when they had no effect whatsoever in real life? I would be simulating them in game just as they were in real life.

How is it more true to the period if I have priest able to call Kami to help in battle/normal life when that help DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN in real life?

Ah, you were there, were you..? :wink:

You believe in the bible?-) It's just as real as lord of the rings. Might just as well believe in elves then.

There's no god. Therefore no son of god was walking. It says something about that when church originally didn't even think Jesus as divine being but only DECADES after his death they decided to put common folks belief that he was son of god into church's teachings...

It did to those who believed in them. There may well be a strong case for atheism, but anyone with a strong faith finds the objects of their faith real and powerful: its why faith continues to persist even in an age where science can provide concrete evidence to the contrary.

Believe all you wish but you won't have any real effect coming up. No mountains crashing top of enemy. No mysterical guide to help you out of forrests. No divine light to banish the(impossible to be) ghost. No nothing.

You can believe but it doesn't AFFECT our world. Never has, never will.

Very true, but not so of ancient Japan. Science, religion, mysticism and a belief in magic happily co-existed until the arrival of the Jesuits. Before that, Japan was a beautiful example of multi-faith, multi-belief toleration where there was very little perceived threat between schools of thought.

Yes belief happened but TANGIBLE EFFECTS didn't. Nothing that would be simulated in game rules.

Effects of those are most appropriately by ROLE PLAYING because it's only persons own internal view that's affected. It does not affect game whatsoever. There's no magic points/faith points/whatever to be measured which then give tangible help. Having that actually goes AGAINST the realism of the setting.

No point in having belief in magic/god as part of the RULES because they have no real game effect apart from what one creates through good old role playing. Something wrong if you need rules to roleplay effect on what does not exists.

"roll a dice. Consult how your character is supposed to react according to his faith". Nope. Not my cup of tea.

 

[DamonJynx]

Ah, you were there, were you..? :wink:

Beat me to it!

Unfortunately for us in the modern age, we will never know what was true and what wasn't in the past as none of us have ever experienced it. We see the past through the filtered lens of academics, who may, or may not, be 100% accurate with their interpretations and translations. It seems to me, and I admit I'm no expert, that various translations of ancient texts reflect the social strictures of the period in which they were done, not just the words themselves. Our current views regarding subjects such as homosexuality, adultery, women's rights and so forth are a far cry from those of our ancestors.

I certainly believe that the majority of myths and folklore (including ALL religions) have at least some basis in the perceived truth of the times they were written. How accurate that perception was is another matter...

To dismiss these beliefs out of hand I feel does an injustice to our history. It's kind of like people who don't believe in aliens, just because we haven't seen them doesn't mean they don't exist. It is unrealistic to believe that this planet out of the millions out there, is the only one capable of supporting some form of life.

 

[Mixster]

Just like Jesus turning water to wine. Nice story, didn't happen.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryhowtoguide/ht/waterwine.htm

It's a common party trick.

The tendencies to go into religious debate is weird here. Discussing whether a setting works with our without magic could clearly be kept apart from a theological debate. Personally I could give a rats ass about what anyone believes.

The three main concerns of Legend without magic (in order of importance) are:

#1 POW is pretty meaningless: There is no real reason to put points in POW. Or with Rolled stats, a character rolling a high stat in POW gets no real benefit from it. Even the only skill that is based purely on POW have problems (see point 3). Without Magic points and magic, you could as well scrap POW, and put the things it does into CHA and INT.
#2 Armor is incredibly more useful: Since nothing in a no-magic setting apart from criticals will penetrate armor. Where in legend armor is useful against mundane attacks, but the bonus starts being too little when the opposition is buffed like crazy, in no-magic legend, there is basically nothing that can reliably hurt someone with 5-6 AP in all locations.
#3 A few skills grow void from the lack of magic: Mostly Persistence have very few non-magical applications, which there'd be a need to find for the skills to be evenly balanced. It would suck being "this stubborn character" where you have 90% persistence, and realize that you can't do squat with it compared to the guys who spend their skill points more wisely.

 

[DrBargle]

In my experience with pseudo-historical campaigns it is very
important for the "feel" of the game that the characters are
convinced that magic, spirits, deities and all that really exist
and have power, even if the players are convinced that all of
this is just nonsense. Therefore I never tell the players whe-
ther the setting's magical elements are real within that set-
ting or not, I just leave it open and occasionally introduce an
unlikely event which seems to be magical. However, the cha-
racters are never able to learn any kind of magic, it is just a
setting element beyond their personal reach.

This seems like the most sensible approach.

If you are trying to 'simulate' historical Japan, nothing will break the immersion or authenticity more than PCs running round perceiving the world through Western, late-Modern eyes and motivated by Western, late-Modern sensibilities. The PCs are going to have to believe in gods and magic, and act as if they believe in gods and magic, and when an NPC claims to be blessed by the gods/able to use magic, they are going to have to act as if they believe those claims. It might seem perverse, but it might be more 'true' to use a (low) magic system in a historical game than to not. The alternative (or complementary) approach is to use the a 'personality/virtue/passion' system, such as that found in Pendragon - but you seem set against that too. If you want the players to direct their PCs according to the beliefs and worldview of historical Japanese people by roleplay alone, you better have players who are not just scholars of the appropriate period in history (scholars of the knowledges and beliefs of the people, not just weapons, battles, and dynasties), but are also committed to a kind of roleplaying that is always careful to keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate. Players as committed to the setting as the GM is pretty rare, in my experience, but if you've got a gaming group of committed roleplayers who are serious social historians of the medieval Japan, simulate away ;-)

 

[Prime_Evil]

Personally, I think that the OP is trolling. There's nothing wrong with running a historical campaign that includes no supernatural elements whatsoever - Legend supports this just fine, although it does require a slightly different style of play for the reasons that other folks have mentioned. The choice of whether to incorporate magic or not in a campaign is one that each gaming group can make based upon their own preferences.

Land of the Samurai provides plenty of material for people who want to run a straight historical game, but also provides rules for magic, religion, and supernatural creatures for those who want to incorporate elements derived from Japanese myth and folklore in their game. This material isn't much use if you are running a campaign that focuses on historical realism, but this isn't the only campaign style supported by the rules. Insisting that this particular style of play is the only viable approach to the source material is false.

Some gamers like to simulate the viewpoint of the Japanese people themselves and incorporate elements that many modern Western people regard as "supernatural". This is a valid choice. However, note that incorporating these elements within the campaign says absolutely nothing whatsoever about the validity of that medieval Japanese worldview - it's entirely possible to simulate the belief system within the game without accepting its tenets in real life.

Other folks prefer to adopt a cinematic approach and simulate the Japanese history as seen through the (distorted) lens of anime, manga, and B-grade martial arts movies. This approach is ahistorical, but heaps of fun if you enjoy the source material.

It's entirely a matter of personal taste. And that's just fine.

 

[soltakss]

Personally, I think that the OP is trolling.

Actually, I don't think he is. It looks as though the OP has a very fixed way of looking at historical gaming, which is fair enough.

Just because I don;t believe in something or am against a practice in real life doesn't mean I can't play a character that can do these things. If it wasn't the case then I wouldn't play any kind of magic user or spell caster, wouldn't play a worshipper of any other religion, wouldn't accept slavery or capital punishment and so on.

There's nothing wrong with running a historical campaign that includes no supernatural elements whatsoever - Legend supports this just fine, although it does require a slightly different style of play for the reasons that other folks have mentioned. The choice of whether to incorporate magic or not in a campaign is one that each gaming group can make based upon their own preferences.

Legend does support the no magic, no supernatural without a problem. Combat is more deadly, as there is no healing magic, not even from the local priest or wise woman, so the players are reliant on skills and natural healing rates.

Land of the Samurai provides plenty of material for people who want to run a straight historical game, but also provides rules for magic, religion, and supernatural creatures for those who want to incorporate elements derived from Japanese myth and folklore in their game. This material isn't much use if you are running a campaign that focuses on historical realism, but this isn't the only campaign style supported by the rules. Insisting that this particular style of play is the only viable approach to the source material is false.

I'd base a game around legends, myths and stories as much as historical fact, but that's because I was brought up reading legends, myths and stories. Personally, I'd prefer a setting that at least touched on such things, even if they were not at the core.

Some gamers like to simulate the viewpoint of the Japanese people themselves and incorporate elements that many modern Western people regard as "supernatural". This is a valid choice. However, note that incorporating these elements within the campaign says absolutely nothing whatsoever about the validity of that medieval Japanese worldview - it's entirely possible to simulate the belief system within the game without accepting its tenets in real life.

In fact, most people do not believe in dragons, griffins and ancient deities, but that doesn't stop them from enjoying games with those elements. Roleplaying is, to a certain extent, about suspending disbelief - some people can do it fairly easily, others, such as the OP, have certain situations that completely ruin their enjoyment of a game because it has certain elements.

Other folks prefer to adopt a cinematic approach and simulate the Japanese history as seen through the (distorted) lens of anime, manga, and B-grade martial arts movies. This approach is ahistorical, but heaps of fun if you enjoy the source material.

And that is important as well. I've seen a Kung Fu expert push someone across the room with just a flick of his hand and stand firm when two grown men are pushing his chest. There's a Shaolin show that I have only seen on TV where someone takes a provenly sharp spear, rests it against his throat and leans on it with his own weight, not leaving a scratch. It could be argued that this is training, or you could say, as they do, that this is due to Chi manipulation. In a game, would it be so much of a problem to mimic such acts?

Running a historical campaign based on films and TV shows, no matter where and when it is set, is as valid as running a straight historical one. In those shows there are examples of truly impressive swordplay, incredible acrobatics and so on. Using them in a game is fine, as it adds to the flavour. But, is is absolutely historical? Of course not. Is it fun? Of course.

It's entirely a matter of personal taste. And that's just fine.

Yep, I agree absolutely.

 

[tneva82]

Unfortunately for us in the modern age, we will never know what was true and what wasn't in the past as none of us have ever experienced it.

So god existed in the year 30 but suddenly dissapeared with no trace :lol:

Funny how gods miracles stopped happening the 2nd science came around...

Also funny how if god is true tells us to do 2 opposite things.

"Do X". Then he also tells us to do precisely opposite. Like saying "you must not kill" and " you must kill" at the same time

 

[tneva82]

The PCs are going to have to believe in gods and magic, and act as if they believe in gods and magic, and when an NPC claims to be blessed by the gods/able to use magic, they are going to have to act as if they believe those claims.

Sooooo to accomplish that you must have rules for magical powers so that characters can do what they obviously could not have done in reality...

RIIIIIIGHT! What happened to the thing called ROLE PLAYING? Has ROLE PLAYING turned into RULES playing? Roleplaying? You know like acting like you were the character you are playing rather than yourself?

You don't need rules for simulating belief in gods. That's realm of role playing.

Bah. d20 has spoiled role playing community it seems. Everything must have rules until it comes to point when you are only rolling dices and following what character sheet says.

 

[tneva82]

Insisting that this particular style of play is the only viable approach to the source material is false.

Anybody claiming I insist that is eithere unwilling or incapable of reading what I wrote. I have never said my way of playing is only one possible. Only that when I want to play campaign set in OUR WORLD then I want to play according to how OUR WORLD WORKS! Our world does not have magic and gods and ergo they won't have tangible effect in my campaigns. To do otherwise is like having Merlin appear in current day campaign.

When I want to have fantasy elements having tangible effect in game world then I play fantasy campaign.

When I want to play game set in our world then it will not have magic and gods as anything other than what people BELIEVE. Because that's what they are in our world. Belief only. You don't heal anybody with belief. You don't toss up fireballs against your enemy by waving hands and muttering magical worlds. God doesn't suddenly come in aid of those who ask and believe.

Having those happen in fantasy setting is fine. But when you want to play in campaign set in our world those ruin the mood.

Is it possible to play samurai game with magic and gods? Yes. Alternative fantasy realm as campaign setting. But I'm not playing in fantasy japan. I want to play campaign set in the japan of OUR WORLD!

Personal preference.

How hard can that be to understand? Such a simple concept but guess too hard.

 

[Old timer]

Sorry, what role playing community?

All gamers play the same or different games, differently, that is the nature of role playing games, and that is beauty and strength of role playing games and also the ugliness and weakness of role playing games.
Many would say that D20 saved the role playing game industry, and of course just as many have a similar opinion to you.

There is no one true way when it comes to role playing games.

 

[tneva82]

Sorry, what role playing community?

The ones who play RPG's.

Seems D20 has caused that actual role playing has died down. Now everything must have rules. "Characters are supposed to believe in god". ADD RULES! We can't possibly play characters who are supposed to believe in supernatural powers without rules saying exactly how to play!

"You meet old guy at bar".
"Okay I roll dice from table to see how my character reacts...Hmm. Seems I'm friendly and ask what brings him here".
"Okay. I roll from table...Seems he's asking you to clear out nest of orcs from nearby hill".
"Right. *rolls dice*. I accept the job."

Etc.

Blah.

edit: And as for POW becoming too weak:

insight
ride
survival
streetwise
oratory
healing
gambling
art
sing
persistence
perception
drive

Lots of handy skills the characters don't necessarily want to skimp on. Insight and perception very handy, ride particulary important with samurai type of characters(assuming characters are samurai's in a first place). Survival very important, streetwise handy, healing double important with no magical healing available. art and sing while might not be most important certainly have role especially in Heian period where art started to gain ground. Drive is not often needed albeit. Streetwise isn't bad skill either. Gambling is probably useless I'll give that. Persistence is VERY important for Japanese characters as it represents trait they call gaman(crazy folks when they insist on having the school's sport day eventhough incredibly powerful storm is sending wooden planks etc flying through air and basically any piece is nasty projectile weapon. Now thats some persistence). Oratory also handy.

Plenty of skills GM can ask players to use. If players want to load up on combat skills GM can make their life tougher by introducing challenges that don't involve combat skills. Was it that smart to load up on combat skills if you end up in middle of political scheming (well okay such biased task assigning is obviously no good but resourcesful GM can ensure players want to have as balanced character as possible. Especially when party is so small they can't have enough specialists to cover everything. When you have 6 characters yeah you can just specialize. Have 2 or 3 characters and suddenly if you go for extreme's you can't cover every base...)

 

[Loz]

Ummm how am I not true if I don't put any in-game effect for these kami's when they had no effect whatsoever in real life? I would be simulating them in game just as they were in real life.

How is it more true to the period if I have priest able to call Kami to help in battle/normal life when that help DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN in real life?

I was simply curious as to how you would be handling the Japanese belief in the kami and buddhas in an otherwise grounded, thoroughly realistic setting. Because this belief is part of the fabric of Japanese fabric. I wasn't challenging your style of play or campaign preferences; but if you are striving for historical/real-world realism, then the fact that the Japanese believed the kami have presence and influence shouldn't be ignored. How your campaign handles it is entirely up to you. There's no right or wrong way.

You believe in the bible?-) It's just as real as lord of the rings. Might just as well believe in elves then.

What I personally believe is moot. However, you cannot claim something never happened with 100% certainty unless you were there and witnessed that it didn't happen. You weren't, so...

There's no god. Therefore no son of god was walking. It says something about that when church originally didn't even think Jesus as divine being but only DECADES after his death they decided to put common folks belief that he was son of god into church's teachings...

And I have no problem with you believing that. I was trying to understand your game perspective based on what the Japanese believed and continue to believe, based on your desire to have a realistic Japanese game. That's all.

Believe all you wish but you won't have any real effect coming up. No mountains crashing top of enemy. No mysterical guide to help you out of forrests. No divine light to banish the(impossible to be) ghost. No nothing.

You can believe but it doesn't AFFECT our world. Never has, never will.

Oh, I wish this was true. There are probably more wars and acts terror perpetrated that are founded on acts of belief than anything else. Hitler believed the Germans were the Master Race. Some claim that their god drives them to unspeakable violence. A bunch of believers crashed a couple of planes into a pair of New York skyscrapers, because they believed Allah willed it. Belief drives action which drives result. Whether gods exist or not to direct those actions is irrelevant. But belief does affect the world. Tragically so.

Yes belief happened but TANGIBLE EFFECTS didn't. Nothing that would be simulated in game rules.

Again, that's fine for your game. By all means ignore the magic and the religions. Focus purely on the samurai.

Effects of those are most appropriately by ROLE PLAYING because it's only persons own internal view that's affected. It does not affect game whatsoever. There's no magic points/faith points/whatever to be measured which then give tangible help. Having that actually goes AGAINST the realism of the setting.

I don't agree. Let's say you have a sohei character (warrior-monk) who wants to call upon Hachiman before a major a battle, or even invoke Hachiman's spirit during it. He might feel short-changed if you, as GM, say: 'Go ahead, but as the gods aren't real, nothing comes of it.' The player may turn to you and say, 'Then what's the point in being this type of character? I should just have played a warrior. But I WANT to be a devout sohei...'

No point in having belief in magic/god as part of the RULES because they have no real game effect apart from what one creates through good old role playing. Something wrong if you need rules to roleplay effect on what does not exists.

This is true of any roleplaying sub-system. Not just magic or religion.

"roll a dice. Consult how your character is supposed to react according to his faith". Nope. Not my cup of tea.

Well, the MRQII/Legend rules don't work like that at all. In fact, the religious approach encourages roleplaying and personal interpretation.

Its clear that you want a magic free samurai campaign. That's great. It'll work. The rules will support you. But if you're looking for something historically true, then you can't ignore the two major religions. Players may expect some in-game effects, so you'll need to set expectations from the start. That's fine. As long as everyone's on the same page, then you won't have any problems.

And, for the record, I don't think you're wrong in wanting such a game. I was just curious about how you'd handle those supernatural elements that the real Japanese believe in very strongly.

 

[rust]

You can believe but it doesn't AFFECT our world. Never has, never will.

Sorry, but I think you are wrong. In my view belief can have
tangible consequences in the real world, no matter whether
the object of the belief does exist or the belief is in any other
way justified.

For a simple example, think of a crusader knight who attends
mass and holy communion before an important battle, he will
almost certainly have a considerably higher confidence and mo-
rale than without mass and communion, and I would not hesi-
tate to simulate this in the game mechanics with a +1 bonus,
and not leave it to the roleplaying element of the game only.

The point I am trying to make is that ceremonies and rituals
do work and have tangible results, although on a purely psy-
chological level (and perhaps comparable to a placebo), they
were introduced and remained in use because they work - it
is not just some mumbo-jumbo without real world results.

 

[tneva82]

For a simple example, think of a crusader knight who attends
mass and holy communion before an important battle, he will
almost certainly have a considerably higher confidence and mo-
rale than without mass and communion, and I would not hesi-
tate to simulate this in the game mechanics with a +1 bonus,
and not leave it to the roleplaying element of the game only.

Confidence and morale. Perfect area to represent by role playing.

And even if you would incorporate that into rules THERE'S NOTHING SUPERNATURAL IN THAT!!! It's a frigging persons own willpower. God doesn't miraculously come forth. That's easily represented by having high POW character. Increases suitable skills enough that it works. Rest is just matter of role playing. No need for rules to get in way.

Sheesh. Good thing we don't live in same country. No danger whatsoever I would have to play in same group even in some convention. I have got enough rule playing for life in miniature games. Feel free to ruleplay if you wish but I prefer to role play when I start up RPG campaign

 

[rust]

That's easily represented by having high POW character. Increases suitable skills enough that it works.

And giving a high POW to increase suitable skills has of
course nothing at all to do with rules ... :lol:

 

[DrBargle]

More, aren't you suggesting that 'roleplaying' a pious character should have associated rule mechanics - either by producing a high POW, or by having low POW characters unable to be sufficiently pious to be inspired by (absent) gods? I thought that this was something that you didn't want to do, seeing how it produces the terrifying ruleplaying* (but if it is, I really do suggest that you check out Pendragon's personality traits and the way these tie into the virtues of different religions, producing mechanical bonuses that can be understood as psychological by players and GM, even as, in game, the characters, player and otherwise, understand them as the blessings of god/s).

 

[soltakss]

Personally, I think that the OP is trolling.

There again, maybe he is ...

 

[soltakss]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't want to have any sort of magic or divine creatures in your setting. We get it. No need to keep banging on about it.

Land of Samurai works that way. Samurai of Legend will also work that way.

As to ruleplaying rather than roleplaying, having skills to use when interacting with people is a core part of Legend. If I wanted to persuade somebody in a roleplaying game, then I'd use Persuade (or whatever the skill is now). My PC might have a far higher Persuade than I personally do, so my roleplaying attempt would be enhanced by my PC's skill. In the same way that I personally can't do major acrobatic feats, but my ninja character might be able to.

Having a framework of rules helps to define characters, helps to add structure to the game and helps to decide the outcome of encounters.