Runes and the Gods

Exubae

Mongoose
This purely from a RQ3 point of view;

Each of the major gods was said to own a rune,
Orlanth - Air, inherited from Umath
Yelm - Sun, from Primal Aether
Lodril - Heat, from Primael Aether
Subere - Darkness, from Nakala/Dame Darkness
Humakt - Death, from Kargan Tor
(the only one that stayed the same was Uleria - Harmony)
etc

Ok, on to the question,
Is a god a personification of its runes or are the runes merely aspects of the gods power.

Its just something that was never made clear in the older version, and in MRQ it seems more pertinent.

Cheers
Paul
 
Sorry to be trite, but the answer depends on who responds. The god learner view is the first, and the second view is most everyone else. Then again, you might have said they represent the beliefs of the mortal population in the gods, which incorporates both other views... or a conflux of all these factors, perhaps more.

DD
 
Runes are the most abstract, literaly symbolic representations of the basic principles of the universe. Religion and magic are all about symbolism, and understanding and manipulating symbolic relationships.

Symbolism isn't just literaly about symbols - the runes - but about similarities and correspondences. It's a bit like art, such as poetry. Let's take Shakespear "Shall I compare the to a Summer's Day?". This works becaue a summers day and the girl in questions are both beautiful, and evoke similar feelings of happines and ease. It works artisticaly because we can intuitively see a connection between these things. In Glorantha this is a real magical connection, which can be exploted practicaly. If the girl in question is celebrated ritualy, given gifts and if she performs the right actions, there's a real chance this will improve the weather and clear the clouds from the sky so that we can have a nice summer's day. Magic is the practical application of knowledge about these connections and similarities.

The runes are the most basic, most fundamental, raw types of symbolic representations. When we look at them, they immediately evoke the power or force they represent. The Water rune immediately evokes the roling waves of the sea. The Sky rune is immediately recognisable as the radiant circle of the sun. Just as they instinctively invoking these powers in our mind emotionaly, they invoke them magicaly too.

The gods (spirits, saints, etc) are the way in which mortal humans can interact and comprehend the raw, conceptual, magical world. They are the personifications of the magical forces of the world. The death rune is cosmic death. Humakt is death (and truth) as far it is possible for mortals to comprehend and interact with it. Most gods have composite powers (such as Humakt having death and truth) because they represent some aspect or interaction between different concepts, rather than the stark, bare concept itself.

All IMHO.

Simon Hibbs
 
No worries I was kind of expecting the response.

Kind of remember that different folk used different runes as well...
God Learners of course squeezed them as well they could into a common system.
But if I remember right the Dragon(ewts) had their own set... which I suppose gets adopted by the EWF.
If memory serves me Beast, Dragonewt, and Dragon are Dragonewt runes... the man rune might have been also, but used as the food rune... not sure.

Erm... second guessing whats going to be in the Glorantha book I suppose

... drifted off my point completelty.

Back to what I wanted to say...

The God Learners are busy correlating Runes, merging gods, and causing major upheaval.

So what I'm trying to get at is:
Are any of the Gods likely to be the same as there 3rd age versions...
Is 3rd age Orlanth, 2nd age Orlanth or a composite enitiy built of local storm gods sharing similar aspect and similar runic associations?

Got there eventually...
I suppose its wait and see...

Cheers
Paul
 
Exubae said:
So what I'm trying to get at is:
Are any of the Gods likely to be the same as there 3rd age versions...

Pretty much, yes. The lightbringer's quest is the defining cosmic world re-making quest for Orlanthi across Glorantha and it was instituted by Harmast in the first age. The Orlanthi religion itself was spread by the Theyalans back at the time of the Dawn. The third age Orlanthi religion if anything isn't a synthesis of previous religions, but rather is a fragmented regional set of (relatively minor) variants from the dawn age version, though of course it's history actualy goes way back to the Vingkotlings.

Simon Hibbs
 
Exubae said:
Is a god a personification of its runes or are the runes merely aspects of the gods power.

The runes are definitely aspects of a god's power. They may be fundamentally part of the god's makeup, but they are secondary to a large extent.

So, Umath was the first Storm and was born with the Storm Rune, so to a certain extent he IS the Storm Rune, or embodied it. He then passed on the Storm Rune to his children, who passed it to their children. So, they are the Storm Tribe or Storm Gods, again defined by their ownership of the Storm Rune. So, having a rune is a large part of the god's makeup.

However, the Rune does not define the god, otherwise all the Storm Gods would be the same. You could say that the Gods have many runes, aand the combination of those runes make up the god. But, if you look at the Runes of Gods (I don't have the sources with me), you will see that there are some gods with the same runic makeup but who are different. All the Grain Goddesses have identical runes, but are different to a certain extent. Most River Gods have the same runic makeup (Water/Movement) but are different - you couldn't say that Oslir and Zola Fel are the same, but you could say they are similar.

So, Runes can define some of the nature of the god, but they play a minor role.

Exubae said:
Its just something that was never made clear in the older version, and in MRQ it seems more pertinent.

If you take the "runes build gods" view then yes, it is important. If you take the "Gods have runes" view then it isn't so important.
 
soltakss said:
So, Runes can define some of the nature of the god, but they play a minor role.

I think that's going a bit far. Does the fact that Humakt is a Death god have a minor role in his worship, his myths, or the powers he gives?

Simon Hibbs
 
I wouldn't count on seeing many of the 3rd age cults in the Glorantha 2nd age book. They already seem to have changed Orlanth into 'Storm King' for some unfathomable reason.

The cults dedicated to Glorantha's deities are among the oldest and most powerful institutions on the face of Glorantha. Contained in this book are the secret lore and powers known only to the most ardent worshippers of the gods, whether they are the faithful warriors battling in the Storm King's image for the cause of good, or vicious, uncivilised trolls emulating the evils of Zorak Zoran in the name of personal power.

In the Second Age, the Godswar is a distant time legend and myth, but the divine warriors that shed their blood so long ago now thrive on the respect and dedication of mortal followers. Cults of Glorantha: Volume I opens the way for players to join their cults of choice and rise through the ranks from mere believers to Runelords and Runepriests, going to war and adventuring across the world in the name of their god - calling down holy power and honouring the pantheon with grand deeds.

As to runes affect on the cults outlook and abilities offered to it's worhsippers, I think they would play a significant role in the theology of the cult. If your cult has a Truth rune then I think it likely that any worshippers would be obligated to refrain from speaking non-truth's and would receive access to skills or spells based on the runes (or portfolio) of the cult.
 
Arkat said:
I wouldn't count on seeing many of the 3rd age cults in the Glorantha 2nd age book. They already seem to have changed Orlanth into 'Storm King' for some unfathomable reason.

The Cults in the core rules are generic examples of how to set up cults and similar organizations such as guilds. I don't think they are actually ever going to be used.

Orlanth is alive and well. There will of course be Draconised variants of most cults in the EWF controlled lands.

The Ralios PDF available on DriveThruRPG describes the 'non-civilized' parts of Ralios including a number of Orlanthi clans. Pretty much the same Orlanthi we have all come to love (or hate).

It is $4.95 , 41 Pages that got cut from the Glorantha book (though fully realized with ToC and Index) by Robin Laws. I like it a lot. It is a good preview of what to expect.

I am not completely set on the rules (waiting for the 'rest' of them in the Companion) but am looking forward to the Second Age Setting. If the rest of it is as good as the Ralios stuff I will definately use it, even if I end up using RQ3 or Deluxe BRP if it ever gets released.
 
That quote from my previous post is thier splat about the Cults of Glorantha Book One. Seeing as the mention Storm King in it you could probably infer that this is the 'old' name for Orlanth.
 
If you take the "runes build gods" view then yes, it is important. If you take the "Gods have runes" view then it isn't so important.
Just trying to get the big picture of it all from effect the God learners have from their meddling with Myths, Runes, and Gods:
God switch, The Trickster Cults, Creation of false runes, and the Caladra/Aurelian experiment to name a few.

Paul
 
Arkat said:
That quote from my previous post is thier splat about the Cults of Glorantha Book One. Seeing as the mention Storm King in it you could probably infer that this is the 'old' name for Orlanth.

Orlanth has been referred to as the Storm King, King of the gods, etc in older RQ works to. I thought you might be assuming that the poor excuse for a cult in the core rules was supposed to represent Orlanth.

The only Mongoose Glorantha source released to date is Ralios pdf I mentioned, and was only trying to calm any fears you might have about the direction they were going. It is chock full of references to Orlanth and Orlanthi clans, as well as other traditional members of the Storm Pantheon.
 
A more updated Cults of Pavis/Terror book would be good. Mine are currently in a binder as the spine disintegrated from much use. *sigh*
 
I'd be inclined to say "both" to the original question. You can't really deal with chicken/egg scenarios where the God Time is concerned, as time didn't actually exist and so all events were simultaneous. Any framework or structure you might see given in the various histories was just imposed on it by later scholars.

"Zen and the art of making sense out of Gloranthan mythology", anybody?
 
Arkat said:
That quote from my previous post is thier splat about the Cults of Glorantha Book One. Seeing as the mention Storm King in it you could probably infer that this is the 'old' name for Orlanth.

Are you aware of the Moon Design Publishing reprinst?

http://www.glorantha.info/shop/shop.html
 
Rurik said:
Arkat said:
Already one available, and pretty damn fine it is too!
Not one for 4th ed RQ.

Looks at the author's nick of the above quote... Didn't I smite you? :D

This board is full of dead Gloranthans - you and I are no exception. :wink:

Just as long are thay are not undead Gloranthans. Otherwise an ol' Humakti like myself would have to remedy the situation. :wink:
 
Back
Top