Runequest vs D&D vs Gurps vs D6 vs Exalted vs everything

[Lord Twig]

:lol: Sacrifice Leg! And you can use it for a club, then...

Wrong set. He converted the Tekumel magic to a BRP style. Definitely not the same set of spells. You can find the ones I'm talking about on the Tekumel site or Pete Maranci's RQ site. You may not care for the Tekumelization, though.

I hadn't heard of this one. I will have to check it out. Probably won't use it at this point, but it is fun to read new systems.

I meant you make the RQ3 rules as written sound not great. This is one of the MAJOR selling points of MRQ for me. I want, just once in my life, to have a rpg that I DON'T have to houserule before it resembles something I'm comfortable with, you know?

Hope, hope, hope.

I agree with you there. All of these posts talking about house rules and the system isn't even out yet! I will wait till it is out and play it as written a few times before I start looking into house rules. Quite often I hear people complain about a rule (particularly in D20) and find out later that they changed something that "didn't make sense" and because of the change broke something else.

You really need to understand the system in it's entirety before you start changing rules.

 

[SteveMND]

I meant you make the RQ3 rules as written sound not great. This is one of the MAJOR selling points of MRQ for me. I want, just once in my life, to have a rpg that I DON'T have to houserule before it resembles something I'm comfortable with, you know?

I think the only way you can get that is if you write your own. I mean, most RPGers have at some point in time played around with creating their own fantasy world, and I suspect a good number of those have played around with coming up with a new RPG system as well.

Well, I know I have at least. But while I really liked how it was heading, I swiftly realized that the resuting game system would be far too complicated to bother pursuing as anything resembling an actual useable product by anyone other than me...

 

[andakitty]

Which brings up another major selling point. Modularity. So far they are making it look to me like you can delete rules you don't care for without breaking anything. That's a LOT easier than having to rewrite major chunks of the rules just to get rid of some little thing that is not wanted, but is tied in to the rule structure so that removing it breaks other parts. Like the old rhyme, 'for want of a nail, the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe the horse was lost, for want of a horse the knight was lost...'.

 

[Adept]

I'd argue that a bell-curve mechanism would make the range of "average" skill values very narrow. This is more pronounced with 3d6 than with 2d6, but neither is good. People just starting out to learn a skill like to be able to succeed in using it every now and then, and even with a score of 4 on a 3d6 system there's a 1% chance of that success. It may be more realistic, but surely playability and fun are more important?

Beginning skills usually start from something like 7 or 8 in GURPS for a realistic character. That's not so bad.

Realism (the feel that things are logical and plausible, within the context) is very important to me and my group, and as for playability and fun... why not start with competent characters? What is so great at getting into the role of a know nothing rookie that has suddenly decided that he/she is going to set out for high adventure?

The whole start as a rookie and "level up" is so D&D... so seventies.

 

[SteveMND]

What is so great at getting into the role of a know nothing rookie that has suddenly decided that he/she is going to set out for high adventure?

To me, it's because it makes the eventual destination that much richer. It's kind of like working for a dollar compared to just getting handed a dollar. Either way, you're a dollar richer, but with the one you feel like you earned it.

Beyond that, I like seeing what happens to my guys and how that affects them. I much prefer starting with a character that is still largely a blank slate, as opposed to starting with a character already mostly fleshed out (as an experienced character typically has to be).

 

[Adept]

People here have been debating magic systems. RQ-3 (or 2) vs. GURPS vs. D&D.

Personally I think all of those suck pretty badly these days.

For a good magic system, fish out the original Shek-Pvar (the magic system for Hârnmaster), or look into Ars Magica. Both actually capture the sense of wonder of magic pretty well, and let your magicians create their own spells. That's what it's all about.

WitchCraft, Armageddon and other Unisystem games have a fairly good magic system as well. The normal problem applies, they can't do their math and there are too many special cases. Lot's and lots of good ideas though, and with some tweaking it works great.

 

[Adept]

Beyond that, I like seeing what happens to my guys and how that affects them. I much prefer starting with a character that is still largely a blank slate, as opposed to starting with a character already mostly fleshed out (as an experienced character typically has to be).

Ah, I guess that does explain it.

In here we've all played that rags-to-riches (or swineherd to mercenary captain) thing over so many times that we don't feel the need to go though it again. Give me an interesting setting & situation, and I'll supply a character that will be interesting to play and who has a personality/history/quirks/motivations from the get-go.

 

[andakitty]

I hate to sound like a broken record here, but for a refreshing playable change in magic systems see...Epic rpg.

 

[Adept]

An explanation and clarification to my latest post.

There is a victorian game where I play a 50+ year old retired navy Steam Engineer. Old Fred is a big, fat, redfaced man with a loud manner (he's a bit deaf) but a keen mind. He's brave but very, very stubborn. He's retired because the destroyer he was stationed on suffered a boiler explosion, and Fred saved the ship at the risk of his own life. He lost an ear, and most of his sight in one eye, but her majesty was not ungrateful. Fred now finds himself Sir Frederick, and the pension made him a rather wealthy man.

The character above is not created by point buy (in case you are thinking, "Ah! Disadvantages for character points."). In fact I wrote the character after some discussion with the GM, handed it to him and he has done the character sheet.

It later turned out that the Victorian Steam Punk game is actually a Call of Cthulu* game, and I'm quite happy to be playing a rational man of sciense in a world that apparently isn't quite as sane and orderly as he had thought.

*Focusing on the Dreamlands, and with the mythos things not as over-the-top horrible as Sandy Petersen's versions.

***

Now think of starting such a character as a generic "beginning hero". That would make no sense at all. The GM said he wanted a gentleman character (my girlfriend plays our true gentleman, one doctor Reginald Archer), a man servant (our french-ethnic friend mr. Rouge Grand, or James as we call him in the spirit of the times), and one friend of the gentleman's family.

==> Sir Frederick. An ugly and scarred fatso, but a rugged and manly character who is equally at home in a tavern brawl or scetching a steam-diven automobile.

This is how I enjoy my games.

 

[Cobra]

People here have been debating magic systems. RQ-3 (or 2) vs. GURPS vs. D&D.

Personally I think all of those suck pretty badly these days.

For a good magic system, fish out the original Shek-Pvar (the magic system for Hârnmaster), or look into Ars Magica. Both actually capture the sense of wonder of magic pretty well, and let your magicians create their own spells. That's what it's all about.

I personally will be creating my own magic systems. Not to replace those that already exist, but to to complement them. I like cultures that are foreign to my characters to really feel foreign, so I usually have them do things quite differently.

My main idea at the moment will combine rune magic and Kaballah to some extent. But other schools of magic would be interesting, too. Using Ars Magica as a model, you could develop skills for creo, perdo, muto, rego, etc. and disciplines (skills under another name) for ignem, corporem, mentem, etc. then allow the characters to devise their own spells by combining a skill and a discipline, as Adept suggested. Some work would be needed to figure out difficulty requirements, but it could be done and would be fun and easy to play, too.

Another way to do something similar would be to adopt skills similar to the 'Doctrine of signiatures', 'Principle of Contagion' etc. and no reason spell components couldn't also be introduced.

It's the flexibility of RQ that always made it so great.

Cobra

 

[SteveMND]

"Now think of starting such a character as a generic "beginning hero". That would make no sense at all. "

Well, clearly, it all depends on the type of campaign.

But I'm not saying starting as a blank slate or a full-formed individual is better or worse, just that different people have different tastes, that's all.

 

[kintire]

So the playable range IS the same

Thats what I've been saying.

Peronsally I find the GURPS magic system to be the most dry (not much you can do to with your spells other than cast them as is) and finicky (the prerequsite system is taken to extremes and keeps on going. It really needs to be simplified).

That's quite true; GURPS magic is dry as dust. Although actually a low Int wizard does quite well; pump those points into your spell of choice and it becomes very effective. Far too effective, in fact!

Practically every culture uses Spiirit Magic, inclduing such advanced culutres as the Lunar Empire. Most Thiests use it, and to a great degree. While each cult might give a limited number of spirit spells, the interrelationships between the cults mean that Theism is practically Spirit Magic with a kicker

I have indeed played RQ, and my experience has been that theism is basically spirit magic with a limited access to spells. At initiate level the "kicker" translates to a chance to have lower power than an animist would...

No, you definately haven't play much RQ. If your cult does provide a spell you can usually get it from an associated cult, that is what the Pantheon rules are for. You can even go to a non-asscociated cult or even a Spirirt Magician to learn a spll, just as long as it isn't something that is resistected by your own faith (so Humakti don't learn Dullblade).

You can, at a higher price and if the cult is about in your area. And if there is a cult allied to your deity that teaches the spell you want. Why bother? why not just be an animist... then you can learn them all at basic cost from your own shaman?

I'm not talking rookie cops, I'm talking experienced officers. People generally don't shoot strait in a firefiight.

You're taling apples and oranges. I haven't met many ministers who have a 22% success rate at running a communion...

Beffuddle doesn't prevent you from defending yourself. You will not likely have your throat cut

You will stand there like a muppet going "blbllleee...." In most of the fights I was in, that got you double teamed and butchered unless your side was winning... which with one PC out of the fight was unlikely to be the case.

That little bit of protection, combined with the stable countermagic, was very strong in many circumstances, and even a small elemental could make a big difference

Well, your mileage may vary, but I found that when, for example, fighting a Lunar Witch with a Lune, a Madness Spirit, her Befuddle and her bodyguard's Demoralise all flying around, POW 20 wasn't any too much thanks. Dropping a couple of points of Protection and Countermagic from the Storage crystal was just better than dropping a point of POW for one use Shield. And Shield is one of the better spells... I could have taken Lightning!

People here have been debating magic systems. RQ-3 (or 2) vs. GURPS vs. D&D.

Personally I think all of those suck pretty badly these days.

Harsh.... but fair!

 

[Gallowglass]

I'm not talking rookie cops, I'm talking experienced officers. People generally don't shoot strait in a firefiight.

You're taling apples and oranges. I haven't met many ministers who have a 22% success rate at running a communion...

Players Book, Page 71: "While an adventurer successfully performs routine actions, in stress situations your gamemaster may call for skill rolls to see if the adventurer can use a specific skill to perform a particular activity" (my emphasis).

Same page: "...the success percentage for a skill is that for more or less 'normal' stress situations..."

You also might care to reread the specific skills descriptions which elaborate this further (Boat springs to mind, also Climb, Ride, Swim...): the RuneQuest III skill system as described in the printed rules does NOT work the way you have been claiming (and criticising): it may well be how you've been playing/running it, but that's NOT what's written in the rulebook...

Regards,

NDM

 

[andakitty]

You know, I'm beginning to flinch whenever I see a new post on this thread. Why don't we agree to disagree and let it alone?

 

[kintire]

the RuneQuest III skill system as described in the printed rules does NOT work the way you have been claiming (and criticising): it may well be how you've been playing/running it, but that's NOT what's written in the rulebook...

It does, and the quotes you have just made support that. The "make a roll evey time you want to open a door" was a reductio of my point by people I was arguing against. Unless you think these quotes mean that you should never have to roll a non combat skill at all, in which case I don't agree with your interpretation.

And even if you are right it still doesn't alter the fact that the useful range of skills on a percentile roll is just as small as on a bellcurve because much of the range of the percentile skill is too small to be useful, which is all I was actually trying to argue!

I think andakitty is right. Anyone who is interested can read both sides.

 

[Gallowglass]

the RuneQuest III skill system as described in the printed rules does NOT work the way you have been claiming (and criticising): it may well be how you've been playing/running it, but that's NOT what's written in the rulebook...

It does, and the quotes you have just made support that. The "make a roll evey time you want to open a door" was a reductio of my point by people I was arguing against.

Really?

But the problem is that 75% is pants. An expert horseman does not fall off his horse at 1/4 of the fences he jumps. An expert potter does not botch 25% of all the pots he makes.

I'm really not bothered whether you like percentile skills or not - but I really don't think it's reasonable to mislead people about how the RQIII skill system works, and "an expert potter botches 25% of all the pots he makes" is simply NOT how the rules as written work.

Regards,

NDM

 

[mthomason]

Not having seen RQ myself I'd hope the rules are more along the lines I've seen in other games - you make the percentile role only when making a true test of skill to do something difficult, while you get automatic success in mundane attempts. Using the example above - the potter would make a pot automatically when not under pressure, but a particularly difficult piece for a nobleman who wants it done by tomorrow without fail would require the roll?

Would someone with access to the rules please clarify this for me?

 

[Deathdealer]

Not having seen RQ myself I'd hope the rules are more along the lines I've seen in other games - you make the percentile role only when making a true test of skill to do something difficult, while you get automatic success in mundane attempts. Using the example above - the potter would make a pot automatically when not under pressure, but a particularly difficult piece for a nobleman who wants it done by tomorrow without fail would require the roll?

Would someone with access to the rules please clarify this for me?

That's the way the rules always worked before and I'd be very surprised if Mongoose changed it.

 

[mthomason]

Thanks!

 

[HyrumOWC]

Not having seen RQ myself I'd hope the rules are more along the lines I've seen in other games - you make the percentile role only when making a true test of skill to do something difficult, while you get automatic success in mundane attempts. Using the example above - the potter would make a pot automatically when not under pressure, but a particularly difficult piece for a nobleman who wants it done by tomorrow without fail would require the roll?

Would someone with access to the rules please clarify this for me?

One thing they've added is a "Time Taken" modifier. This ranges from "Almost Instantly" to "Ten Times Normal time" with corresponding positive or negative modifers. This make it so the potter with plenty of time would have to really screw things up to fail.

Hope that helps!

Hyrum.
OWC