Runequest vs D&D vs Gurps vs D6 vs Exalted vs everything

[atgxtg]

I'm talking about skills in the 30-50 range, which are supposed to be actually quite competent.

No, 30-50% skill isn't consider "quite competent" at all. Anymore that a 6-10 skill is considered "quite compentent" in GURPS.

The 30-50% range represents people who have made some effort to learn something, but still have a way to go.

Yor average warrior in RQ is typically in the 55-65% skill bracket. Pretty much on par with the a skill level of 12 in GURPS (DEX+2 for a average person).

If you compare the stats and skill % of various characters in RQ products and compare them with the GURPS 3D6 bell curve and skill equvalency table things match up fairly well.

 

[Utgardloki]

I have to vote for d% rolls not working as well as the DC/Target Number systems like GURPS, D20, and L5R.

The problem with d% systems that I've seen is that they assume that one task is quite like another. My character in CoC makes a Track or an Occult Knowledge skill, without consideration of whether it is an easy or a difficult task. I think in CoC there is provision for a task being done at half chance or double chance, but that's not as flexible as setting a DC that is either trivial for anybody with a little training, or else practically unattainable for anybody except for the masters of the skill.

But I am comparing the ancient version of Runequest available in 1983 with the current, most up to date RPGs out there. I am assuming that MRQ will have a good skills system.

I have to chuckle at some of the skills rolls I've made. I had a Heroes Unlimited character once, and it seemed like I was always making rolls. It was like "I am going to cook myself breakfast. I roll to see if I can operate the microwave oven."

Then again, with my cooking skills, my odds of being able to successfully use a microwave oven might not be that close to 100%.

 

[andakitty]

I don't see that as a problem. +/- 10, 20, or 40 does it for me. There is changing the target or changing the roll. Percentile is very straight forward, and I like the 'granularity'. A matter of preference, I can't see one system type as better somehow. My dislike of D&D is based on factors other than the basic resolution system.

I see your point, though. Have you looked at Epic rpg? It has a target system but is all skill based. Uses 2D10 against ascending targets: 5, 10, 15, 20, 25. You have skills and master skills...each gives a bonus (I think up to +4 each) to which you add your stat modifier to beat a given target. So you might have a skill of +4, a mastery in that skill of +1 and a stat bonus in the controlling stat of +1 for an overall bonus of +6. Roll to beat the assigned target. It's a clean system, and doesn't seem to have D&D's issues. It has reactive combat, a parry is an opposing skill roll.

There are reviews at rpg.net, and a well designed web site. I might pick this game up, because if nothing else it's just loaded with all sorts of good ideas. But I'm so used to percentile I probably won't change my stripes.

 

[atgxtg]

I have to vote for d% rolls not working as well as the DC/Target Number systems like GURPS, D20, and L5R.

THe DC/Target number idea is a very easy game mechanic. In fact, is is a stealimed version of the old RQ reistiance chart. Very easy to use, but it does have some problems too. For instance, in D20 skill ranks are tied to level of experience, so you can easily wind up with TN's that are beyong the reach of a player character (you can't critical s skill roll in D20).

The problem with d% systems that I've seen is that they assume that one task is quite like another. My character in CoC makes a Track or an Occult Knowledge skill, without consideration of whether it is an easy or a difficult task. I think in CoC there is provision for a task being done at half chance or double chance, but that's not as flexible as setting a DC that is either trivial for anybody with a little training, or else practically unattainable for anybody except for the masters of the skill.

L5R had similar problems with the TN scale, especially with the second edition. First Edtion made attributes way to important over skills. Third edition looks nice though. Like 1st but with persk for skills.

GURPS's big drawback is that the game is heavily dominated by the attribute scores. A character with a 15 Stat and a half point in a skill is better than a character with an 10 Stat unless the latter has put a lot of pointsand tme studing the skill. So much so that a character really can't master a skill without a good attribute score.

But all RPGS have weakness, and strong points

RQ did have a provision for modifing the chance of success by the difficult of the task. Easier tasks might get +10% or +30% or more. THis was spelled out a little better in RQ2 than in RQIII. They just didn't do enough with the idea, expanding the list of modifers or use them more in the examples.

Some other RPGs using D100 have done better. The James Bond RPG for one. It used a multiplier system to determne the chance of success. IF you did something that was easier, you stood a better chance of success. Cnversely, if you did something more difficult, you had a lower chance of success.


I wonder how MQR is going to address this?

 

[Lord Twig]

Also consider that frequently a failed skill roll in RQ did not mean that you failed completely. It just meant that you failed to make progress. A failed boating skill just meant that you didn't move, or you just followed the current. A failed climb roll meant that you didn't move. You had to fumble to actually tip over a boat or fall.

So for crafting. Say you needed to make a pot and it would take about 30 minutes to make. Make a skill roll. While it is possible that the apprentice will succeed the first time with his 25% skill, it is much more likely that the master with 75% will. So just keep rolling until you succeed or fumble. Each new try would take 30 minutes. A fumble means you have ruined your materials and will have to get new ones. If you managed to special or critical then you turned out something quite good. If you consider an 8 hour day the master will turn out an average of 12 pots while the apprentice will finish only 4.

Now say you want to make and ornate breastplate. Subtract 50% from your roll. Now the apprentice only has his default 5% chance of success and the master has a 25% chance. The master will in all probability complete his version much faster than the apprentice. The apprentice has an equal chance of completing the armor or fumbling and ruining the piece.

That is pretty easy and, while it is not spelled out in the books, is perfectly within the rules that are laid out. This is from a game published in the late 70s early 80s. Twenty years later people think that D20 is all that.

 

[kintire]

andakitty:

You just don't, or can't, listen do you?... please don't tell me a system I've been using for successful games for decades doesn't work.

Me, in the post just before.

I played RQIII for ten years, and still do on and off

Practice what you preach?

I really don't appreciate how you are talking down to some of the other posters here.

Then they shouldn't talk down to me. I respect many of the posters in this thread. Steve has made some very good points (and caught me out with one of them!). Others have not.

It isn't that D100 is bad per say, it is how it is being used. Bell curves have most of the same problems (the break down at low skill percentagesis worse in GURPS and HERO system, both of which use a 3D6 bell curve. But both games set default skills fairly high, and thus avoid the low % chance problem. Run a GURPS game and give characters skills requiring a 4 or 5 to roll and you get the same thing).

That is certainly true, but the point about a bell curve is that you can have skills across a reasonable range of numbers that are reliable enough to use. With a d% system the range where the skill is really relaible is quite small, compared to the full spread of figures.

Incidentally, I'd like to mention my respect for atxtg who has given a reasoned response to my actual point.

What are you talking about here?

Not about what you think I'm talking about, clearly. My point there is that the system provides skills that are used only or chiefly for mundane purposes, and you can't blame the GM for asking for rolls on them. I don't think I mentioned character generation did I?

From common sense (no die rolls), we know that master is needed to do certain intricate work and is faster in general than the apprentice,

Well, that's fine, but if I have to use common sense for this, why do we have a skill system that covers it... or tries to?

Just use common sense and have fun with it. It's not a game that spelled everything out for you, and that's how a lot of us liked it.

This is a thread on a message board discussing a specific topic. The topic of this thread is how the RQ system compares to other systems. I am therefore posting about the system because that is what the thread is about. I am aware that the system is not the be all and end all of roleplay. I am aware that the gaps can be filled in with common sense. IBut this thread is about comparing the systems and therefore that is what I am posting about.

I would also like to hear what your difficulties are with the RQ magic system?

RQIII's magic system has two main problems; systemic, and it doesn't reflect glorantha very well. The most obvious systemic ones circle around the next to dysfunctional sorcery system. Also, however, Divine Magic has serious issues... the spells, with some exceptions, are just not good enough to justify the price involved until they become reusable, and in many cases even then. This means that almost all characters primarily use Spirit Magic until very late in their career. Unfortunately, Spirit Magic is too good for the price you pay, with Befuddle and Demoralise taking someone out of the fight with a single spell. This leads to the world related problem; in Glorantha, and in the RQIII assumption, Spirit Magic is pitched as the weakest tradition, practiced mostly by people who are primitive; and even then more usually as a part of a pseudotheisitic cult with access to divine magic than alone. Actually, it is by far the most powerful tradition, as it gives you access to all spirit magic spells instead of a very restricted selection for a theist, or none at all for a sorcerer.

No, 30-50% skill isn't consider "quite competent" at all. Anymore that a 6-10 skill is considered "quite compentent" in GURPS.

50% is the level you need ceremony and cult skills at to become a Priest. I'd hope a priest was pretty competent at ceremony before being allowed to preside!

So for crafting...ruining the piece.

Actually I really like this idea. I'm almost converted! Still, it doesn't solve the limited range problem for one off skills like jump.

 

[Gallowglass]

I've been thinking lately, why play one role playing system rather than another one. The question of whether D20 is garbage or not has seemed to have taken over a number of other threads, so maybe a thread where we can discuss the merits of Runequest over the others is a good idea.

So what are the alternatives to Runequest, and how good are they? Why (or when) choose one over the other?

First, we seem to have somewhat lost track of the OP's actual question.

Second, despite what some people seem to think, one's personal dislike of a feature of a rules system does NOT generalise to that system being broken. Likewise, that a given system handles things in a particular fashion that I disagree with does NOT mean the system does not handle that thing: just that it does it in a fashion I don't like.

I cannot stand using 3d6 rolls for resolution - it didn't work for me in The Fantasy Trip and still doesn't. I also find that pure point buy charcter generation always kills my emotional attachment to a character - I always have more fun playing a character created with at least some element of randomness.

These things DO NOT mean that GURPS is broken, or even fundementally flawed - just that it doesn't suite me...

Likewise, RQIII skill and magic systems DO NOT suit everybody - but they are NOT broken. I have used both, largely unmodified for many years quite happily, as have many others who have posted in this thread.

The skill system could be better defined - but higly defined skill systems can bog games down badly, and one of RQ's strengths for many people has always been the fluidity of its skill system. RQIII Magic (especially Sorcery) is awkward to fit in to an archetypal adventuring game at times - but again many see that as one of Sorceries strengths (it creates very good NPC villain wizards IME).

Cheers,

NDM

 

[are]

I would also like to hear what your difficulties are with the RQ magic system? Are they confined to the AH RQ rules, which were the weakest? I can't comment on GURPS, but have always found the RQ magic system far superior to D&D's.

I think the Gurps Magic rules are even better. Every spell is a skill, with prerequisite spells. You use fatigue like magic points, but regain them faster than MP. Most spells have some variation and there are rules for enchanting most of the spells into items. The Gurps Magic system is easy to customize to any setting, and that is its weakness, it is a generic magic system so you usually have to tweak it to fit the setting.

 

[kintire]

Second, despite what some people seem to think, one's personal dislike of a feature of a rules system does NOT generalise to that system being broken

If this is directed at me, and I'm not sure that it is, let me just reiterate that I have never said this.

I have used both, largely unmodified for many years quite happily, as have many others who have posted in this thread.

Including me.

RQIII Magic (especially Sorcery) is awkward to fit in to an archetypal adventuring game at times - but again many see that as one of Sorceries strengths (it creates very good NPC villain wizards IME).

It's awkward to fit in Glorantha. I found RQIII Sorcery to be almost worthless except and very high levels, and terribly limited by the INT requirement even then. We used Sandy Peterson's vastly superior version.

I think the Gurps Magic rules are even better

They are adequate in a 100 point campaign, if completely without any flavour, sense of mystery or magic at all. To a degree, that's inevitable. However, the terrible problem is that most direct effect spells are based on a direct competition between the skill in the spell and a stat. as soon as a wizard gets a few points he can bump up the spell skill far more quickly than any stat, which gets more than ten times the price per point. As a result, Wizards Win even more so than DnD.

 

[atgxtg]

That is certainly true, but the point about a bell curve is that you can have skills across a reasonable range of numbers that are reliable enough to use. With a d% system the range where the skill is really relaible is quite small, compared to the full spread of figures.

Again, the same is true of a 3d6 bell curive. A skill is only "really reliable" when you hit what 65%+, 80%+. That's like 12+ or 14+ in GURPS.

Incidentally, I'd like to mention my respect for atxtg who has given a reasoned response to my actual point.

Uh, thanks, I guess. I'm just disccuing the various bits about rule mechanics in the differenet RPG systems and how they compare.

Not about what you think I'm talking about, clearly. My point there is that the system provides skills that are used only or chiefly for mundane purposes, and you can't blame the GM for asking for rolls on them.

Again, GURPS is no differenet. An example of this is the ability to drive a car. Now neither game is esigned for the haracter t make driving rolls to get back an forth from work each day. If they did, then neither system would allow for a average person to drive very long before failing a roll.Generally, in either system, unless you are Mario Andretti, you are going to fail multiple rolls in a year and either get killed in an auto accident or at least loose your liscense as a reckless driver. THis holds true for anyone who doesn't have at least a 99% (17+ in GURPS) driving skill.

But neither game is expecting the GM to do that. THe drive skill is only uses in tricky situations, like if you are driving at night and you car go over a patch of ice.

Likewise, the same hold true for language skills. A character with a 50% language skill in RQ, or a 10 skill in GURPS is actually incapable of holding a conversation if the GM is holding them to skills rolls. Either is going to miss every other word, sentense, paragraph, or whatever. Instead, what is assumed is that both character get along okay in normal day to day life, perhaps with the occasion language difficulty, but the skill rating is only used in situations where the character need to get a point across or understand somewthing that is really important and does'nt have mucn time to go over it a second or third time, like "Grenade, duck!"

RQIII's magic system has two main problems; systemic, and it doesn't reflect glorantha very well. The most obvious systemic ones circle around the next to dysfunctional sorcery system. Also, however, Divine Magic has serious issues... the spells, with some exceptions, are just not good enough to justify the price involved until they become reusable, and in many cases even then. This means that almost all characters primarily use Spirit Magic until very late in their career. Unfortunately, Spirit Magic is too good for the price you pay, with Befuddle and Demoralise taking someone out of the fight with a single spell. This leads to the world related problem; in Glorantha, and in the RQIII assumption, Spirit Magic is pitched as the weakest tradition, practiced mostly by people who are primitive; and even then more usually as a part of a pseudotheisitic cult with access to divine magic than alone. Actually, it is by far the most powerful tradition, as it gives you access to all spirit magic spells instead of a very restricted selection for a theist, or none at all for a sorcerer.

THe Sorcery system isn't dysfunctional. It works. It just doesn't work that well. THere are some nice ideas in it (it is one of the few systems where a soceror can make a living asting spells. It wise nice to go get a damage boosting spell tosesed on a sword with an exended duration when I expected trouble). The main problem has been the Free INT concept. There are variant rules (Sandy Petersonn Sorcery rules), but the orginal system is flawed. OF course, if you have the Free INT, sorcery starts to become very powerful. THe problems with it most likely stem from it no being used in the main Glorathan settings (Dragon Pass/Prax) unlike Spirit Magic and Divine Magic.

As for Divine Magic not being worth it until spells become reusesable-yeah, so? That doesn't make them worthless. A non-reusable raise dead or arrow trance, divine intervention is still quite useful. In addtion, practiconers of Divine Magic have limited access to Spririt Magic so they aren't missing out in the magic department.

Spirit Magic isn't touted as the weakest of the three anymore. It was the weakest of the two in RQ2, but that was when most battle magic/spirit magic spells had 4 or 6 point limits. Perosnally, I wish they still had those limits (with a skill for Shaman to let them up the limits like by 1 pt per 10-20% or so). A 15 point Bladesharp might be uncommon, but it is a force to reckon with. On the other hand , the casting % are tied to a character's POW score, so after encumberane, Spirit Magic isn't as relaible as Divine MAgic or even Sorcery (once a Sorceror has gotten some experience).

50% is the level you need ceremony and cult skills at to become a Priest. I'd hope a priest was pretty competent at ceremony before being allowed to preside!

I'd hope it too. I just don't expect it. The 50% limit is the point where a character makes the roll more often than not. THat seems fine for smeome who is just beome a priest.

In the real world, we allow police officers to go around carrying firearms. Now you would think that in rder to walk/drive around carying a deadly weapon society would have very high skill requimenets. Likewise in GURPS a character with even basic fireaems ability is going to at 10+ skill. Yet realw ord data from real word firefires (at ranges of 20 feet or less with little cover and dim lighting) shows hit percentages of about 20% on average. The reason why, it's that stressful.
[/i]

 

[kintire]

Again, the same is true of a 3d6 bell curive. A skill is only "really reliable" when you hit what 65%+, 80%+. That's like 12+ or 14+ in GURPS.

Yes, but in a bell curve pattern people cluster on the average, so skills become reliable quicker. A bell curve system will usually produce a normal roll, but will throw up an oddity now and then. with a linear roll, any result is as likely as any other.

But neither game is expecting the GM to do that. THe drive skill is only uses in tricky situations, like if you are driving at night and you car go over a patch of ice.

Indeed, but the linear system has only a small subset of skill levels where you would dare to try. Remember, the point I'm arguing against is that d% is better because it provides a larger range of skill: the problem is that a large part of that range is irrelevant. Bell curves don't suffer this problem nearly as badly.

The main problem has been the Free INT concept.

well, you're not wrong there. The problem is, its a critical problem.

Also, the mechanics are very very dry and finicky, but thats another issue. Yes, the Petersen rules are great, but they aren't RQIII.

Spirit Magic isn't touted as the weakest of the three anymore

Its the primitive one. the one people who have advanced in culture no longer use. Theists dominate Glorantha, sorcerers rival them in the west. Pure Animists are very limited in number. If it isn't the weakest, and indeed it isn't, then it should be!

As for Divine Magic not being worth it until spells become reusesable-yeah, so? That doesn't make them worthless.

Well, actually it pretty much does. Yes, there are a few spells, like the one you mentioned, as well as Heal Body and the get out of dodge teleport that you might consider. But you'd only get one of them. They do provide a last ditch avoid death clause. But they don't represent a functioning system of magic until you get to Rune rank, and even then they are so costly to get that you'll take ages to build up much of a repertoire. Basically a theist rune rank person is a third rate animist with a few one off flashy tricks.

In addtion, practiconers of Divine Magic have limited access to Spririt Magic so they aren't missing out in the magic department.

very limited. They are missing out on a vast range of power. And if they are so foolish as to join a cult that doesn't offer counterspell, they will be missing out on most of the fights too.

Not that I'm bitter, or anything...

THat seems fine for smeome who is just beome a priest.

A priest isn't a rookie cop, he's a significant religious figure. He may not be excellent at ceremony, but I'd say he was competent!

 

[Gaheir]

I don't find the spirit magic/battle magic to be overwhelming. The possibility of a befuddle/demoralise notwithstanding. They do give the young, inexperienced adventurer an opportunity to cancel a more powerful opponent. But, the veteran should have access to more spells and better defenses. If a runemaster, they would always defend at their full power, despite spell use. A simple countermagic spell would defend them from these spells, as well. The beauty of Glorantha's magic is it's portrayal of a magically alive world. Magic is everywhere and most have access to it or are affected by it, but it's effects are not generally dramatic. Simple charms of protection and sharpness, or to sharpen your senses are common. The powerful effects of fireballs and lightning, not uncommon in D&D are extremely rare in RQ, and associated with rituals and cadres of priests/spellcasters. And in D&D the low level mage is arguably more powerful than RQ casters. There is nothing comparable to the sleep spell, incapacitating several opponents at once with a simple spell.
As to single use divine/rune spells not being worth the price, I disagree. Having access to shield during a key encounter can certainly make the difference, and in a brief nod to RQIII, the requirement that a being possess 10 points of such spells before becoming a priest (if I remember correctly-I didn't care for RQIII so continued to use Chaosium's for my personal games) is seemly. The beginning priest is competent and has proven his ties to his god.
The huge arsenals of spells that a moderate to high level mage in D&D will have is fine within it's setting. But a world supercharged with such magic, and in which the vast majority have access to none of it, is less credible, for me. And how to justify, except for game balance, the effect of weapons and armour on spellcasting. A mage can carry his weight allowance in potatoes and 3 or 4 staves while freely casting spells, but put him in a set of leather armour, than roll for spell failure? (It does work as a balancing tool-but not logically. Or do you house rule that the encumbered mage has some chance of spell failure, as well?)

 

[kintire]

I used mostly RQIII, so I can't comment on the older "battle magic".

The possibility of a befuddle/demoralise notwithstanding. They do give the young, inexperienced adventurer an opportunity to cancel a more powerful opponent

And they give a more powerful opponent the chance to cancel one of his opponents in a single move. Once befuddled or demoralised, you are usually sitting out the fight. If Befuddled, you are likely getting your throat slit.

If a runemaster, they would always defend at their full power, despite spell use.

This isn't the case in RQIII.

A simple countermagic spell would defend them from these spells,

Yes... IF they have access to it. Many theists won't. And if the opponent doesn't boost the spell, of course.

As to single use divine/rune spells not being worth the price, I disagree. Having access to shield during a key encounter can certainly make the difference, and in a brief nod to RQIII, the requirement that a being possess 10 points of such spells before becoming a priest (if I remember correctly-I didn't care for RQIII so continued to use Chaosium's for my personal games) is seemly. The beginning priest is competent and has proven his ties to his god.

My experience in RQ indicates to me that no stat in the entire layout is as important as POW. Almost all the effects of the others can be replaced by raising your skills a little more. Only damage bonus and strike rank can't be very simply replicated, and even their spells can help a lot. But when you are casting magic, resisting magic, making your spells work, fighting spirits and making luck rolls, its all about your POW. And those are some of the most important activities in the game, especially resisting magic.

To get divine magic, you have to spend POW. That isn't a small thing. Spending POW makes you weaker against spirits, more likely to succumb to the encounter ending spirit spells, gives you fewer magic points to use, making it less likely that the spells I cast with those magic points will work, and becoming less lucky. And what am I getting in return? a little armour and counter magic for fifteen minutes, once ever? Thanks, but I'll pass.

 

[atgxtg]

Yes, but in a bell curve pattern people cluster on the average, so skills become reliable quicker. A bell curve system will usually produce a normal roll, but will throw up an oddity now and then. with a linear roll, any result is as likely as any other.

No. The reason why skills become relaible quicker is that the two major "bell curve" systems out there (GURPS, HERO) bump the success chances up quite a bit once you make any sort of effort to learn a skill. This is nother to do with D100 or 3D6 or D20. It is just the way those games work. In GURPS, once you put a point or two in a skill you shoot up to a skill level around that of your stat. Since the average stat is 10 the average person shoots up to 10 (50%). With the average PC built on more points, thier average stat is probably closer to around 12, so they shoot up to 12 (70% ish). In HERO you have the same sort of thing. One a character buys a skill it goes up to 9+Stat/5.
So the playable range IS the same. It is just that GURPS and HERO don't use the low end of the 3D6 bell curve. That's not a D100 problem, just a designer's decision on character advancement. You could do the same thing in RQ by doing something like what Harn does and raising any skill they character learns to Statx5% or so.

Mathmetically, there is no real difference.

Indeed, but the linear system has only a small subset of skill levels where you would dare to try. Remember, the point I'm arguing against is that d% is better because it provides a larger range of skill: the problem is that a large part of that range is irrelevant. Bell curves don't suffer this problem nearly as badly.

Sure they do. Try taking an average person in GURPS and try using some of those GURPS skills at thier default values. What I think you are overlooking is the jump from training in GRUPS. For instance one skill point is GURPS is said to equte to 6 months training. Six months training in RQ would probably raise an RQ skill to a % rating higher than the GURPS equivalent.

well, you're not wrong there. The problem is, its a critical problem.

Also, the mechanics are very very dry and finicky, but thats another issue. Yes, the Petersen rules are great, but they aren't RQIII.

Critical? I don't know. Annoying, definately. Essentially, you need a High INT if you are even going to be a poewerful Sorceror in RQ3, but GURPS isn't any better in that regard (try running a low INT wizard). High INT characters have the potential to do great things, but won't be able to until they get the skills to do so. As for experienced sorcerors, well they have ways of freeing up INT. But, yeah, in the end the Sorcery system was dragged down by that.
The Sandy Perterson change (getting rid of Free INT and replacing it with a peantly to spell casting %) pretty much fixed things overnight.

As for the mechanics being dry and fincky, that is entirely a person interpetation. Peronsally I find the GURPS magic system to be the most dry (not much you can do to with your spells other than cast them as is) and finicky (the prerequsite system is taken to extremes and keeps on going. It really needs to be simplified).

Its the primitive one. the one people who have advanced in culture no longer use. Theists dominate Glorantha, sorcerers rival them in the west. Pure Animists are very limited in number. If it isn't the weakest, and indeed it isn't, then it should be!

Really, have you even played RuneQuest? Practically every culture uses Spiirit Magic, inclduing such advanced culutres as the Lunar Empire. Most Thiests use it, and to a great degree. While each cult might give a limited number of spirit spells, the interrelationships between the cults mean that Theism is practically Spirit Magic with a kicker. For example, if Orlanth doesn't teach Heal, go to the Challana Arroy temple.
Spirit Magic (or Battle MAgic as it was once called) is much more intermixed with the Divine Magic system.

Why should Spirirt Magic be the weakest. THere are other reasons why people could move away from it. The Theists-don't really abadon it, just add it to thier own Divine Magic. THe Sorcerors don't use it becuase Sorcery can do anything Spirirt Magic can, and do it with more precisin, control and power (if you have the ability).





No, I don't think you have played RQ3. A Theist Rune Rank person is essentially a First to Second rank Animist with enough of a Divine kicker to more than make up for the difference.

The non-rune rank thesists (initiates) are second to third rate animists (just like the non-shaman spirit magicians) with a little kicker from thier Theism.









No, you definately haven't play much RQ. If your cult does provide a spell you can usually get it from an associated cult, that is what the Pantheon rules are for. You can even go to a non-asscociated cult or even a Spirirt Magician to learn a spll, just as long as it isn't something that is resistected by your own faith (so Humakti don't learn Dullblade).

All in all DivineMagic is an augmentation to Spirirt Magic. It makes the Thiests the most powerful magicians (rivalled only by the elite sorcerors) but that fits with the Gloroanthan setting


A priest isn't a rookie cop, he's a significant religious figure. He may not be excellent at ceremony, but I'd say he was competent!

I'm not talking rookie cops, I'm talking experienced officers. People generally don't shoot strait in a firefiight. As for the Priest, he isn't necessarily anymore signficant a religious figure than the cop is a signficant figure of the law eforcement. A priest just leads a congregation. Using real world examples, the typical Parish preist of a village in the midle and dark ages gnerally wasn't "quite compentent" at all. He was just the guy who could read and write some (and in Latin). Of course he usually did so at our 3rd grade level.

Aslo, by RQ rules the Ceremony skill isn't rolled very often, but is used more to augment other ritual magic. SO in that sense it works fine. For instance if a priest is going to cast a bless crops at 100%-ENC, it makes sense to add a little flourish in order towork off the few pencetiles lost for the robe and other stuff on him.l

 

[Gaheir]

Just a quick response to a couple of your points.
Beffuddle doesn't prevent you from defending yourself. You will not likely have your throat cut, rather you would warily watch either friend or foe approaching, uncertain which was which. It does take you out of the fight, though. (Clever ruses may bring you on to either side.)
And yes, pow is very important, and not to be thrown away lightly. But, it is the most easily gained attribute in the game, as well. The trade of a power point for rune magic is frequently worth it. I never believed in hoarding power, because of it's nature. It seemed to me that building it to a respectalbe level, than spending gains beyond that level (say 14-15 as a minimum) was the best way. (That little bit of protection, combined with the stable countermagic, was very strong in many circumstances, and even a small elemental could make a big difference.) Pow at that level insured reasonable pow gain success and gave decent opportunities on the resistance tables. At rune level, especially as a priest, it becomes harder to sacrifice for the rune magic. Keeping the 18 minimum for a priest made pow gain rolls very hard.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

I'd argue that a bell-curve mechanism would make the range of "average" skill values very narrow. This is more pronounced with 3d6 than with 2d6, but neither is good. People just starting out to learn a skill like to be able to succeed in using it every now and then, and even with a score of 4 on a 3d6 system there's a 1% chance of that success. It may be more realistic, but surely playability and fun are more important?

40% would be my ideal starting skill value. A 50% skill means that in yr average stressful situation, you'll succeed half the time. That's actually pretty damn good!

I like the d20 skill resolution mechanism, much as it pains me to admit it. I've been toying with the idea of a similar d100 + skill > DC mechanism for RQ. With RQ2, where skills are in 5% increments, you could even convert to a 1 to 20 scale quite painlessly. This also makes it very easy to calculate an "effect number" (anybody remember Bushido?).

 

[Lord Twig]

RQ magic did have issues. We instituted quite a few house rules to deal with them.

The biggest problem was that there where no limits. So we added some.

Spirit Magic was limited to 4 points common, 6 uncommon, 8 unheard of. Nothing over 8 anywhere, period.

Divine Magic was limited to 4 points stackable for Initiates, 5 for Rune Lords, 6 for Rune Priests.

Sorcery was not limited except for special cases. For example, Damage Boost was limited to the AP of a weapon. So no 20 point Damage Boost on a dagger. This made Armoring Enchantment on your weapon more valuable. Up to 6 points on ammo, but it was destroyed after it hit something.

Free Int was used to store spells. Sorcery manipulation was based on your skill. So if you had Damage Boost 60% you could manipulate up to 12 points.

Same for the Sorcery skill. If you had a Duration of 40% you could only add 8 points Duration, as long as your skill with the spell was high enough.

Multispell was completely redone. Basically it allowed you to cast spells faster. So if you cast Spirit Resist 10 on 4 people it would take you Dex SR+14 Strike Ranks to cast and would cost you 40 Magic Points.

Armoring Enchantment was limited to double base armor. Strengthening Enchantment was limited to double base HP. Only total HP could be enchanted. So no 10 point arms with 6 point legs.

I have re-written the Magic Book almost in it's entirety. I would post it but I am sure that it would be a copyright violation. I just keep it for my personal use (and my groups) as that is okay. Heck, I bought the deluxe box at least 4 times, since it kept falling apart.

 

[andakitty]

Gbaji, have a look at Epic. Really. It sort of takes the best of both resolution styles. The 2D10 makes results on either end of the scale much more common than with the 3D6 from TFT, Hero, etc. Plus RQ style combat.

Lord Twig, have you ever looked at SPQR or Sandy Petersen's Tekumel RQ magic rules? You might find either more palatable than the straight RQ3 rules. I never actually used those in play, having moved to Stormbringer and other things by the time it came out. You and some others here make it sound not so great, I have to say.

 

[Lord Twig]

Actually with the house rules everyone in my group thought it worked great. What I have listed pretty much fixed everything for us. There are a lot of fine points that I left out, but that is the gist of it.

I have looked at Sandy Petersen's rules and (IMHO) they are terrible complex and unwieldy. Plus he added things that were unnecessary/silly. For example:

SACRIFICE LEG (3): cut off one of your legs at the knee, which cannot be regrown. Taking this Vow a second time gives you an additional 9 Presence. Only humans can take this Vow.

Huh what? Cut off your leg to gain power in Sorcery? Whatever. You could also do this with your hand. Now you are casting one handed better than when you had both. Ugh.

Edit: Oh, forgot one thing in the above house rules. Befuddle was removed from the game. Too powerful for 2 magic points.

 

[andakitty]

:lol: Sacrifice Leg! And you can use it for a club, then...

Wrong set. He converted the Tekumel magic to a BRP style. Definitely not the same set of spells. You can find the ones I'm talking about on the Tekumel site or Pete Maranci's RQ site. You may not care for the Tekumelization, though.

I meant you make the RQ3 rules as written sound not great. This is one of the MAJOR selling points of MRQ for me. I want, just once in my life, to have a rpg that I DON'T have to houserule before it resembles something I'm comfortable with, you know?

Hope, hope, hope.