Runequest vs D&D vs Gurps vs D6 vs Exalted vs everything

One day, if you keep trying, you'll learn that there's more to RPGs than the rules. And then it'll cease to be such a worry to you.

Yes... :roll:

Wulf, I know that there is more to RPGs than the rules. And this doesn't worry me that much... I played RQIII for ten years. But this is a discussion about rules systems and so, funnily enough, it contains discussions about the rules.

One day, if you keep trying, you will learn to look at the context of statements when assessing their content. And then, you'll cease to make fatuous remarks in public.
 
kintire said:
One day, if you keep trying, you will learn to look at the context of statements when assessing their content. And then, you'll cease to make fatuous remarks in public.
You may call it fatuous, I call it polite, compared to what I originally wrote.

Wulf
 
You're right, but its a bit of a throwaway remark to base a major part of a skills system on!

Well, to be fair, I don't believe I've ever seen any game system yet that required a skill roll (or it's equivalent) on eveything that the PC had to do, regardless of the mundanity of the job. Just on the things of 'import' (i.e., 'stressful' situations).

That said, I won't argue that it could have been made a little more clear in the RQIII rules, for the benefit of new players.

Yet, by the same token, I can't imagine any player/GM who wouldn't pick on that after a single game session of rolling hundreds of boating checks during an otherwise liesurely 3-day raft journey on calm safe waters... :)
 
You may call it fatuous, I call it polite, compared to what I originally wrote

So, out of curiosity, what DO you object to? Discussing rules during a discussion about rules, or is just disagreeing with you a kind of global crime?
 
Well, to be fair, I don't believe I've ever seen any game system yet that required a skill roll (or it's equivalent) on eveything that the PC had to do, regardless of the mundanity of the job

True: and that is what the quote is saying. But mundanity is such a vague term: after all, making things with craft skills isn't exactly wild an exciting, but if the skill is in there, presumeably you are meant to use it!

Yet, by the same token, I can't imagine any player/GM who wouldn't pick on that after a single game session of rolling hundreds of boating checks during an otherwise liesurely 3-day raft journey on calm safe waters...

But most GMs would require at least one boating check a day or so; after all, why have the skill at all if everyone can do boating at a competent level? And even a skilled boatsman is far to likely to fail it.

The problem is that RQIII doesn't cover this situation. In D20, you'd just say it wasn't a stressful situation, and just take 10. If your skill was even faintly credible, you'd be fine. In GURPS, with the bell curve, a competent boater will have a small enough chance of failing its not a problem. In RQ, a competent boatsman has a really quite good chance of failing a basic roll like that. The only solution thats offered is not to bother making the roll at all, which is fine but why have the skill?

The point that seems to be emerging is that the best approach to low skill tasks, like simple boating, is not to bother rolling them. You only want to roll for the stressful stuff that experts will be doing. Essentially, your skills where the numbers matter will be those which are high enough that you will dare to do dangerous things: 60s and up, depending how desperate you are! Skills of 10,20, 30, and 40 are essentially the same. You have a bit of basic competence, but you won't dare do anything risky. They aren't useful as numeric skills.

Which is exactly my original point...
 
The point that seems to be emerging is that the best approach to low skill tasks, like simple boating, is not to bother rolling them..

D20 uses DCs to determine success, and in 'non-stressful' situations, you can just take 10 (for some skills; not all). That is functionally the exact same thing as not having to make a roll for a simple task in a non-stressful situation.
 
D20 uses DCs to determine success, and in 'non-stressful' situations, you can just take 10 (for some skills; not all). That is functionally the exact same thing as not having to make a roll for a simple task in a non-stressful situation.

True, but this option is integrated into the system, not a house rule you have to bolt on from outside. And it does still preserve a real difference between the skills even at low levels; a skill of 4 will fail a dc 15 task taking ten where a skill 5 will not. In RQ you have to junk the skill system for low range skills. And even that isn't a full fix; even very skilled people fail too often.
 
Turloigh said:
Adept said:
(And like the makers of GURPS the makers of Unisystem can't do their basic math. Still, it was easier to fix than GURPS. Things like character generation, point costs for skills and stuff like that.)
Andakitty - could you elaborate? I'm curious.

GURPS has a speed/Range table to use with projectiles. It's pretty easy to see what the basic assumption is in it (as distance increases by 1,5* one get's a -1 to hit), but the rounding up is totally bizarre. Also, because the default range is two meters(!) there are all sorts of clunky numbers to swirl around. I re-calculated the table so that it was rounded up properly (and used circular target area instead of length, and also set the default to a target that was a human at 7-10 meters. That worked nicely. Also the snap-shot numbers are really stoopidly put together... (I can private e-mail you later if you use GURPS and want the fix).

But the problems are also more basic. The point costs for learning skills seem to have been plucked from thin air, and not well plucked either. The same problem with unisystem.

I fixed Unisystem so that learning a skill (or buying a stat) at level one costs one point, raising it from one to two costs two points and so on.

So, when buying a skill or a stat when making a character:

1 = 1 p
2 = 3 p
3 = 6 p
4 = 10p
5 = 15p
6 = 21p

I use six as the maximum skill and five as the ultimate human stat. Even if one has a stat more than five (non human, superhero...) the skills are calculated like it was five.

And, Voila! One system that is easy to remember, and makes more sense than the original (that is a confusing jumble of special cases and separate rules). Works better too.

A critical success in a skill gives 0,1 points of experience, as does one week of training.
 
True, but this option is integrated into the system, not a house rule you have to bolt on from outside.

It's not a house rule in RQII, either; as mentioned, the GM decides if a situation warrants a skill check or not. Same in d20, or ANY roleplaying game, for that matter.

What I will concede is that RQIII was perhaps far more malleable and flexible in that regard; whereas d20 and some other systems might nail all sorts of skills down to what you can and can't do at various skill levels, RQ largely left that in the hands of the GM more often that not.

It might not suit your particular playing style, but that doesn't invalidate it.

And it does still preserve a real difference between the skills even at low levels; a skill of 4 will fail a dc 15 task taking ten where a skill 5 will not.

I'd hardly call a DC 15 ("Tough") the same sort of thing we are talking about here in the sense of 'mundane' tasks. I think we're talking about not bothering to roll for stuff falling in the equivalent "Easy" (DC 5) range.

Regardless, you seem to be convinced that the percentile skill system dosn't work, and if so, that's fine; there are lots of other systems out there that use differnet systems (and none without their own quirks, too).

I think the arguments on both sides of the issue have been more than adequately presented by this point...
 
I think we're talking about not bothering to roll for stuff falling in the equivalent "Easy" (DC 5) range

But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about skills in the 30-50 range, which are supposed to be actually quite competent.

Regardless, you seem to be convinced that the percentile skill system dosn't work,

It works well for skills which you expect to fail regularly, and can retry, Like combat skills, when the skills are in a range from about 60 through to 100. It doesn't work nearly so well for other skills or ones which fall out of that range.

It might not suit your particular playing style, but that doesn't invalidate it.

well, I played RQIII for ten years, and still do on and off. I'm not trying to "invalidate it" just point up a few problems, and specifically argue with this:

Bell curve systems tend to have smaller "playable" ranges and begin breaking down once the stats hit a certain point.

I did quote this in my original post, to make it clear I was replying to it... My point is that actually linear d100 systems have just as small a useful range, or smaller, and break down at low levels, which is actually more serious than high, especially in Glorantha.
 
Kintire's arguments... :lol:

You just don't, or can't, listen do you? Talking about fatuous... :roll:

Tastes vary, I guess, but please don't tell me a system I've been using for successful games for decades doesn't work. We can agree to disagree, polite like. I really don't appreciate how you are talking down to some of the other posters here. I don't agree with them about everything, but I respect most of them. I don't see any reason to respect you. :x
 
kintire said:
Bell curve systems tend to have smaller "playable" ranges and begin breaking down once the stats hit a certain point.

I did quote this in my original post, to make it clear I was replying to it... My point is that actually linear d100 systems have just as small a useful range, or smaller, and break down at low levels, which is actually more serious than high, especially in Glorantha.

No necessarily ture. It depends on how the % sclae is used. If you star eveything off at 5-15% (like RQ2) then, yes, you are oing to have some problems with beginning characters. RQ compensated for this with it's experience and training system. Skills that a character used would get out of the "breakdown" range fairly quickly.

Another overlooked section of the RQ rules is the part of modifying skills rolls. Essentially the success chance is supposed to be modifed based of the difficulty of the task being attempted. For example, a character might have Clim 25% on the sheet, but if that chatacter has climbing gear, and is climing up a familar slope, with help, and under ideal weather conditions, the chance of success should be significantly increased.

Again, the BOND RPG's Ease Factor System was fantastic for this. Generally, if you chance of success in that game was really low, you were either attempting something that you had no idea how to do, or doing it under very bad conditions. The latter was somthing that my last group never quite understtod. They would hear the Ease Factor and then try to make the low percentage roll rather than stop and think of what they could do to improve thier chances of success (aiming certainly would have helped).

Also, some % systems can calulate the chance of success based on the levelof the oppostion. An example of this is the old RQ resistance chart (which, BTW is the mechanic behind the nw D20 system). On that chart, you would have a 50% base chance, shifted up or down 5% per point of difference in ability. While RQ used this exclusively for comparing vlaues against attributes, the chart was actually a lot more versitle.

For example, if you used RQ2 skill percentages (in 5% increments) you could have shifted a % chance of success up or down based upon the skill of the oppoition. Say you had acharacter with a 55% shield skill, and are blocking a foe with a 45% attack skill, you could add the difference (10%) to you block chance. If you opponent had a 65% skill, you'd have to subtract 10% from you skill.
Note that this makes skill ratings relative to the difficulty. So a character with a 25% climb going up a difficulty 5% slope could add 20% to his success chance.


It isn't that D100 is bad per say, it is how it is being used. Bell curves have most of the same problems (the break down at low skill percentagesis worse in GURPS and HERO system, both of which use a 3D6 bell curve. But both games set default skills fairly high, and thus avoid the low % chance problem. Run a GURPS game and give characters skills requiring a 4 or 5 to roll and you get the same thing).
 
kintire said:
This is not a problem with the system, this is a problem with the GM, who apparently insists on having the player roll for every pot and fence, instead of reserving rolls only for important and/or risky actions.

But its the system that puts the mundane skills on the character sheet. Its not the GM that made the characters roll for starting profession, and it isn't the GM that put those skills in the starting layout. What exactly DO you roll craft skills for, if not to craft stuff?

What are you talking about here? Of course it's the GM (hopefully with input from the players) that decides whether to have players roll for starting professions and use the listed skill numbers, rather than use one of the other character creation methods. The GM can assign points and have players assign them as they wish, or allow players to pick culture and professional backgrounds, etc. That is all entirely up to the GM.

Mundane uses of any skill don't need rolling for

So there is no difference at all between a carpenter's apprentice and a master carpenter?

This doesn't follow from what you quote. Obviously, there's a difference between a master and an apprentice, but that doesn't mean you roll for every mundane task that either one does. You only roll for unusual or stressful situations (as stated in the book, btw). A master armorer or an apprentice can build suits of armor all day in their properly equipped workshop. From common sense (no die rolls), we know that master is needed to do certain intricate work and is faster in general than the apprentice, but given enough time and materials, either can do a decent job on mundane day-to-day jobs. If you roll in this case it only determines how swiftly the job is complete or whether you end up with an exceptional or subpar peice (ie. critical or fumble).

OTOH, if you're trying to repair damaged armor in the field without proper tools and materials (ie. an unusual or stressful situation), then roll against the skill. Just think of it like combat. Your skill there measures your ability to hit an active opponent in real battle, not your ability to hit a nonmoving dummy in practice, or to even hit an unaware guard you catch from behind. Treat craft skills, and similar, the same way. They measure your ability to do something in a high stress situation.

if they have to be rolled, should have a bonus.

This is exactly equivalent to saying that skills at those levels are useless. If i'm doing my carpentry to build a raft, say, and I just get a bonus because "its mundane", why am I bothering to improve the skill at all?

If it's mundane, then don't roll. If it's not, then do. If you have plenty of time and materials, then just state that you built a raft. Even if you roll, it only determines to what extent you succeed. Even a fumble is a useable raft in pristine conditions. A failure might need some bailing, while a success only needs it in rough conditions, and a critical is fine up to the roughest conditions.

Once again, that skill only determines actual success/failure in high stress situations. Try to throw a raft together in the virtually treeless Vulture Country before the horde of broos descend on your group: roll against your Craft Raft/Boat skill to see if you can pull it off.

This is how RQ/BRP has always been run in my experience, and it's clearly implicit, if not explicit, in the rules of both RQII and RQIII. Just use common sense and have fun with it. It's not a game that spelled everything out for you, and that's how a lot of us liked it.
 
I play the guitar. Quite poorly. I'd say my skill level is about 15%.

Now, I can play Stairway to Heaven, I have the necessary basic knowledge required to do so, but it would take me about a month to get it down right.

A skill check is for getting something right first time. Common sense would dictate that in a situation where time does not matter, repeated tries will eventually get you there. Skill checks can be ignored. If I was in front of a live audience and had to do a note-perfect Stairway first time or I don't get paid, then a skill check is needed.

I can't believe this old argument is still going on after over 30 years.
 
Kintire, placing the need to only roll in stressful situations in the FIRST paragraph of the chapter on skills does not make it a throwaway remark. It makes it basic to the skills system. Beyond crafts there are myriad instances when skill checks are not needed. The boating skill as mentioned is not needed in calm water. That 30-50% will do fine at going downstream in a broad river. With the spring run-off in a narrow, rock filled gorge the skill becomes pertinent. It seems obvious to most that skill rolls for the ordinary task are unnecesary. A bard can easily tavern sing in RQ and d20. Put him in front of the local lord in either, than you'll require a roll. In both he will still certainly be singing competently. He will be hoping to perform his best, though, to impress the potential patron.
I would also like to hear what your difficulties are with the RQ magic system? Are they confined to the AH RQ rules, which were the weakest? I can't comment on GURPS, but have always found the RQ magic system far superior to D&D's.
 
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