[Rumor] Conan 2nd Ed to use Runequest system?

[Foxworthy]

In MRQ this bloody battle result is quite the standard. In d20 you cannot simulate such situtations, because there are no hitlocations involved.

What? That's stupid. Hit locations don't make a system bloody. D20 Conan is a very bloody system and it's one of the few games that I've seen that actually have the players worried about thier characters dying the whole fight without being paranoid about it. It's deadly enough but not too deadly.

A too deadly system and you'd never be able to mimic a stoy like Beyond The Black River, but d20 Conan does it very well.

 

[Trodax]

I like realistic and deadly combat in fantasy games (if you can say realistic and fantasy in one sentence) I like if players (and NPCs too) have to loose something if they go to combat. (hand, leg or head) This makes for a much better combat experience and much more adrenaline than the clean and unrealistic combat between D20 heroes which have 100HP each and impale each other 10times before one is down.

Being raised on BRP games, I used to loathe hit points until I realised that they were a mechanic that gave results that I actually liked, namely that they act as a statistical buffer of sorts, making combat more predictable. Also, I always regard hit points more like a measure of fatigue rather than actual flesh wounds - a guy with 100 hp who loses 10 hp has not taken a sword in the gut, he's just been nicked.

In D&D, a 1st level fighter will never get lucky and take down a 10th level fighter, simply because this would require that he score lucky hits on multiple turns in a row all the while his opponent got unlucky enough not to squash him like a bug. It just doesn't happen.
In BRP, even the guy with broadsword 250% could potentially get taken down by a lucky arrow.

What I like with the D&D version is that unexpected deaths don't happen so easily; in the BRP fantasy games I've played I've found that characters quite often get killed by some street thug who happened to score a critical hit. In D&D, a GM can, because of the gradual wearing away of hit points, tailor a scenario so that it is much more likely that all that drama and suspense (and character deaths!) happen during the fight against the street thugs leader; the main villain in the end.

Of course, Conan RPG should probably be placed somewhere in the middle between D&D and BRP in terms of deadliness, because of its rules for massive damage.

One example for this claim is that the most conan stories are dealing with severed and maimed arms, heads etc. In MRQ this bloody battle result is quite the standard. In d20 you cannot simulate such situtations, because there are no hitlocations involved.

I don't need rules for hit locations to say that the pict who just lost all his hit points got his arm severed or brain dashed out. It's just a matter of description, you don't need rules for it (I like BRP, but I think rules for hit locations are really, really unnecessary).

Besides, Conan never lost any limbs, did he? If his tales had used BRP as its system, he would probably have ended up losing an arm or two during all those adventures. Or getting killed by a street thug who got lucky.

 

[Enpeze]

Decurio - My apologies Enpeze, if it appeared I was picking on you I wasn't.

Absolutely no problem.

Decurio - Enpeze, where are you from?

I am from Vienna. Europe.

Trodax - Being raised on BRP games, I used to loathe hit points until I realised that they were a mechanic that gave results that I actually liked, namely that they act as a statistical buffer of sorts, making combat more predictable.

Predictable? Well I think in reality combat is everything else except predictable. And I was always saying that RQ is closer to reality than d20. So your argument proofes my claim perfectly.

Also, I always regard hit points more like a measure of fatigue rather than actual flesh wounds - a guy with 100 hp who loses 10 hp has not taken a sword in the gut, he's just been nicked.

Well, that is very abstract. I am more for direct results. It seems we are too different in our basic concepts of what a good RP should be made of.

 

[Trodax]

Well I think in reality combat is everything else except predictable.

This is true.

And I was always saying that RQ is closer to reality than d20.

Yes, this is probably true as well. The thing is, I don't want my Sword & Sorcery RPGs to emulate reality; I want them to emulate the Sword & Sorcery genre. Conan, Solomon Kane and Elric are larger than life heroes; it would not be appropriate for them to get killed or lose an arm in a fight against some random city-guard.

Thats what I was saying; I like the predictability of d20 combat in the sense that this kind of random shit doesn't happen (in Conan RPG, it actually can happen because of massive damage, but there are Fate points for those situations).

Also, I always regard hit points more like a measure of fatigue rather than actual flesh wounds - a guy with 100 hp who loses 10 hp has not taken a sword in the gut, he's just been nicked.

Well, that is very abstract.

Yes, but it works and gives the results I want in a heroic game.

It seems we are too different in our basic concepts of what a good RP should be made of.

As long as we're both happy, all is fine, right?

 

[Maximo]

Trodax wrote:

The thing is, I don't want my Sword & Sorcery RPGs to emulate reality; I want them to emulate the Sword & Sorcery genre. Conan, Solomon Kane and Elric are larger than life heroes; it would not be appropriate for them to get killed or lose an arm in a fight against some random city-guard

Couldn't have been said more clearly.

I tend to prefer classless/level-less systems, but levels and classes don't detract from the story in Conan d20 and now I am fond of the system and most sourcebooks so far.

MRQ can kill the setting with its combat system.

No larger than life heroes = No Conan game.

If you want that realism so badly, just pick up a historical setting (there are some which could be very good) and don't mess Conan, please.

We'll see how this ends, but if Mongoose makes silly changes to the game just to appease its potential RQ customers, I'm done with the game :evil: :evil: :evil: . I remember all too well what happened to Star Wars d6 and the change to d20 killed it. And don't tell me about "conversions" from one system to another, I've never seen them work, and have my right to be quite skeptical. Typically, companies try to sell you again the same stuff under different rules, and I'm fed up with this.

The end line is: Why change something that works? d20 is not perfect and doesn't fit every genre well (as proved its Star Wars version) but it has proved to be very good for Conan, and MRQ has lots of chances to ruin it.

 

[Ltlconf]

Hello Folks,


Long time no see-um, but been busy. I agree with all the chest beating and hair pulling over this rumored change in systems for CONAN. Like many here the system has grown on me.

Like a really ugly pimple, but it has grown.

A change in systems would be most irritating. I have used RQ back in the day, mostly in the WILDERLANDS setting, and I did like it alot, though it could be a character killer when strictly applied (I and other GMs ofton fudged roles to keep a GROUP alive. Yeesh).

However I have heard rumors (rumors mind you) that WotC may be cutting the OGL so many companies such as Mongoose will be forced to fing another system license or build in-house. If this is true this would explain alot. It's also possible that WotC has announced the POSSIBILITY of this and Mongoose is hedging their bets as a good company does.

The industry is in a small amount of trouble boys and girls. Guardians of Order publishes the GAME OF THRONES, the only other OGL I've liked completely and they've gone under. This was a POPULAR game, but it didn't save 'em. Mongoose needs to survive, let's give 'em all the support we can give.

 

[thulsa]

However I have heard rumors (rumors mind you) that WotC may be cutting the OGL so many companies such as Mongoose will be forced to fing another system license or build in-house. If this is true this would explain alot. It's also possible that WotC has announced the POSSIBILITY of this and Mongoose is hedging their bets as a good company does.

As I believe others have pointed out, Mongoose's Conan RPG uses the OGL (Open Gaming License) and not the D20 license. As far as I know, the OGL cannot be revoked by Wizards of the Coast, and even if the license is changed (ie. a new version of the OGL is created), it is possible to continue publishing using older versions of the license. Essentially, with regard to the OGL, the "cat is out of the bag" and it is here to stay. So this argument is not relevant to this discussion.

And, by the way, count me among those who have invested too much time and money in the d20 system to want to switch system. I'm sure RQ is a good system, but so is d20, and there is no point in re-releasing the game with a new ruleset... except for Mongoose to make more money at our expense.

- thulsa

 

[taylor]

D20 is a very flexible system, and it's very easy to make combat much, much deadlier (like my group does).

 

[jadrax]

Mongoose needs to survive, let's give 'em all the support we can give.

If they publish what I want to buy, I will buy it. If they do not, I wont.

I might buy products I don't want if I belive theres somthing in it for me in the short term, For example i might buy the LW pocket edition, just because i look forward to there being a supliment after that.

But there is no way I would buy a Runequest Conan line just to prop up the company.

 

[are]

The game system must support the gaming style the players prefer.

What do the players want to play when they pick up Conan? They want to play heroes, characters like Conan, Valeria, Red Sonja, Belit and Fafnir which all seems to have "script immunity" (fate points?) from "critical hits". At the same time they want to be able to take on deadly horrors with a fair chance of success.

I think Conan D20 has managed this very well, with their low threshold for massive damage saves (MDS) and fate points (FP) to save the characters butts when they run out of hit points or fail a MDS themselves.

We don't know yet whether Moongoose Runequest (MRQ) will be able to simulate that "reality" as well as Conan D20. I haven't seen the rules for MRQ yet, so I don't know whether there will be FP or another mechanism that will allow the same style of play in MRQ as gamers are used to from Conan D20.

However, we do know that most of the rules that is part of the Conan D20 rulebook and supplements are superfluous in an MRQ version of the game. MRQ, which I presume is a generic system, will have no classes, feats (well, except heroic abilities) and other "artificial" constraints on the characters, that is the hailmark of D20. Converting a writeup of a D20 character (or monster) to a MRQ character is much easier than the other way around. Actually, the only thing that would be needed for a "mature" gamer to play Conan MRQ is a MRQ Conan magic book. The background doesn't change when the system changes! Most of the material from the Conan line is usable with any generic game system!

I believe Moongoose has let out this rumour to test the waters, to find out whether it would be a good idea to mould Conan into their new, proprietary game engine. I think Moongoose is best served to keep Conan D20, to serve old customers and attract new d20-addicted gamers alike, and make that conversion-book for Conan-to-MRQ. That will best serve everybodys needs.

 

[nebulous]

One example for this claim is that the most conan stories are dealing with severed and maimed arms, heads etc. In MRQ this bloody battle result is quite the standard. In d20 you cannot simulate such situtations, because there are no hitlocations involved.

I don't need rules for hit locations to say that the pict who just lost all his hit points got his arm severed or brain dashed out. It's just a matter of description, you don't need rules for it (I like BRP, but I think rules for hit locations are really, really unnecessary).

Besides, Conan never lost any limbs, did he? If his tales had used BRP as its system, he would probably have ended up losing an arm or two during all those adventures. Or getting killed by a street thug who got lucky. [/quote]

I completely agree. Hit locations don't make a system. i've ad-hocked my fair share of severed limbs and heads. I even have a house rule in d20 that says if a character is going to die from a blow, they have the option to take a debilitating strike instead. They still might bleed out, maybe not, but they'll be short something regardless. And yeah, Conan would probably have gotten is butt handed to him more often (literally! ) with hit location tables.

I love the Conan d20 game and think it's the best OGL solution to D&D yet.

One thing i WOULD like to see in a game is a system where a better strike does more incremental damage, and a lucky graze does less damage. Maybe somehow they could be rolled at the same time. I dunno.

 

[Strom]

I believe Moongoose has let out this rumour to test the waters, to find out whether it would be a good idea to mould Conan into their new, proprietary game engine. I think Moongoose is best served to keep Conan D20, to serve old customers and attract new d20-addicted gamers alike, and make that conversion-book for Conan-to-MRQ. That will best serve everybodys needs.

You could be right. Matt posted this over on the RQ forum on a thread exactly like this one:

msprange Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:44 pm

To add to that, no firm decision about Conan has been made at all yet. However, one way or another, we'll see you right
_________________
Matthew Sprange

Mongoose Publishing
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com

Yet no comment on this thread by Matt. Wonder why? Looking at the response and replies on both the RQ forums and this Conan forum looks like a lot of RQ fans are coming over here to post on this thread while the Conan fans are not reciprocating. Very little crossover from this board. Actually, the replies mirror what I imagine the sales would reflect. I don't see the MRQ rules being a huge hit - not like the Conan introduction. There can be no doubt they have a loyal and fanatic fan base but it can't compare to the OGL D20 base already established. Keeping the rumor out there in a "may be true, may not be true" status could impact sales negatively for future supplements like Argos & Zingara, Hyborian Empires and especially an adventure like Reavers of Vilayet.

With RQ coming out in August (I believe) - what would be the timeline for a new 2nd edition Conan with the MRQ rules? I would think they would want to capitalize on with a change over fairly close to the RQ launch. This would get Conan fans to try the new rules and possibly pickup the RQ books as well - or visa versa.

 

[Enpeze]

strom - Actually, the replies mirror what I imagine the sales would reflect. I don't see the MRQ rules being a huge hit - not like the Conan introduction. There can be no doubt they have a loyal and fanatic fan base but it can't compare to the OGL D20 base already established.

Interesting argument. I hope you recognized the fact that the runequest forum has after 3 months time already approximately 10% of the amount of postings the conan forum has. And MRQ is not even out yet. So be not sure that only few die-hard fans are watching the release of MRQ very closely.

Of course d20 is played by many more people, but it has a lot more settings and worlds, so the D&D and d20 players which are also interested in conan d20 are just a part of the potential fan pool.

RQ was once no.2 on the RP market and could sell very well. Who is the potential customer of MRQ?
-the switcher (which is tired from other systems and wants to try something new, more realistic)
-the old RQ fan (there are many out there which would probably buy anything if it has the label RQ on it)
-the Call of Chthulhu fan which like to play a fantasy setting sometimes but dont want to learn an new game system.
-maybe even the Heroquest player would buy MRQ just to have the setting of the 2nd age Glorantha.

So dont be sure that MRQ will not be a hit. And the better Mongoose have done its job in modernizing and improving the system, the better it will sell.

 

[Padre]

I hope you recognized the fact that the runequest forum has after 3 months time already approximately 10% of the amount of postings the conan forum has. And MRQ is not even out yet. So be not sure that only few die-hard fans are watching the release of MRQ very closely.

1. Forum users are only a small part of the customer base. You can't tell whether a game is popular or not only by the post count.
2. New games always have lots and lots of posts. Especially before and right after they are published (there are topics to discuss).

Of course d20 is played by many more people, but it has a lot more settings and worlds, so the D&D and d20 players which are also interested in conan d20 are just a part of the potential fan pool.

Aaand...?

RQ was once no.2 on the RP market and could sell very well.

Or very poor, as lots of good RPGs did.

Who is the potential customer of MRQ?
-the switcher (which is tired from other systems and wants to try something new, more realistic)

And he can choose hundreds of other games.

-the old RQ fan (there are many out there which would probably buy anything if it has the label RQ on it)

How do you know there are many?

-the Call of Chthulhu fan which like to play a fantasy setting sometimes but dont want to learn an new game system.

How many people would that be?

So dont be sure that MRQ will not be a hit. And the better Mongoose have done its job in modernizing and improving the system, the better it will sell.

Don't be sure that MRQ WILL be a hit. We can only guess. OGL Conan is popular, the system works and needs only minor improvements (if any). No need to risk it all only to cater to a group of RQ fanboys that don't like d20.

 

[Sutek]

strom - Actually, the replies mirror what I imagine the sales would reflect. I don't see the MRQ rules being a huge hit - not like the Conan introduction. There can be no doubt they have a loyal and fanatic fan base but it can't compare to the OGL D20 base already established.

Interesting argument. I hope you recognized the fact that the runequest forum has after 3 months time already approximately 10% of the amount of postings the conan forum has. And MRQ is not even out yet. So be not sure that only few die-hard fans are watching the release of MRQ very closely.

Of course d20 is played by many more people, but it has a lot more settings and worlds, so the D&D and d20 players which are also interested in conan d20 are just a part of the potential fan pool.

RQ was once no.2 on the RP market and could sell very well. Who is the potential customer of MRQ?
-the switcher (which is tired from other systems and wants to try something new, more realistic)
-the old RQ fan (there are many out there which would probably buy anything if it has the label RQ on it)
-the Call of Chthulhu fan which like to play a fantasy setting sometimes but dont want to learn an new game system.
-maybe even the Heroquest player would buy MRQ just to have the setting of the 2nd age Glorantha.

So dont be sure that MRQ will not be a hit. And the better Mongoose have done its job in modernizing and improving the system, the better it will sell.

When was RQ number 2? I've never heard of it before Mongoose revamped it and I've been playing RPGs since 1983 people.

As far as the profile of the "potential RQ gamer", you may be totally right. But:

- the switchers are the minority. Most people are NOT playing D20 games simply out of spite (lol) and wanting to be non-conformists. There are the select few within that group that are also into more "elite" RPGs, but you can't exactly call these hard-core people a customer base. Hârnmaser is a fantastic system, but I've only ever met a handful of people who've even heard of it.

- old RQ fans are in that "fantastic system" category I just mentioned. To them, it's the be-all-end-all of RPGs and they're thrilled about it and will buy whatever comes out with that tag on it. I bought the revamped L5R for the same reason: great world, cleaned up rules and info and back to the original system = sold.

- The CoC fan that likes to play fantasy???? CoC is fantasy. Also, CoC is so far removed from Conan...I just dont' get the reference. But I guess i see your point and would say that these people fall into the same category above: classic system non-conformists.

- same thing about the Hero Quest people.

Now, is that small slice of the RPG market enough to make scrapping D20 Conan and switching to making RQ Conan profitable??

I dont' think so at all...

 

[Enpeze]

Padre and Sutek,
If you just look at the sheer amount of material which is coming out for MRQ this year: 4 Basic Rule Books, Glorantha 2nd age, Lankhmar, Miniatures. Next year King Arthur and maybe Conan. So if you regard the money and energy which is behind it seems that Mongoose believes it has a top seller on hand.

I am with them, because after 2 decades I know which tremendous raw power the BRP system has, if done right. But of course we all will know the truth in one or two months, not now.

Sutek - Now, is that small slice of the RPG market enough to make scrapping D20 Conan and switching to making RQ Conan profitable??

I dont' think so at all...

Well I think its worth a try. And there could be additional reasons behind a switch as discussed many times in this thread.

BTW: the first MRQ OGL product is announced. Its from Otherworld Creations (the makers of the horror game "Chill") and its the "Diomin" Fantasy World. Its still a small and not so well known setting buts its a beginning. OWC are an example of the "switchers" I describes in my posting because Diomin used d20 in former editions.

 

[Corwyn]

I am pretty sure that Runequest, while a fine game, was not the first classless, skill driven system out there. I believe that honor would go to Traveller. I dont have my ancient chivalry and sorcery book around and I dont remember if they used armor as AC or armor as DR.

Runequest/BRP is a great system for gaming with in its paradigm. I personally dont think that it particularly captures the feel of Heroic swords and sorcery fiction as well as OGL Conan but I think thats been argued back and forth already.

I fully intend to try out the new RQ when it comes out but I hope they leave OGL Conan well enough alone.

Corwyn

 

[Enpeze]

I am pretty sure that Runequest, while a fine game, was not the first classless, skill driven system out there. I believe that honor would go to Traveller. I dont have my ancient chivalry and sorcery book around and I dont remember if they used armor as AC or armor as DR.

Runequest/BRP is a great system for gaming with in its paradigm. I personally dont think that it particularly captures the feel of Heroic swords and sorcery fiction as well as OGL Conan but I think thats been argued back and forth already.

I fully intend to try out the new RQ when it comes out but I hope they leave OGL Conan well enough alone.

Corwyn

You are probably right. Traveller was as far as I know 1977 and RQ I was 1978.

 

[Tim]

There was also Champions, one of the first point system games, that also came out in the 70's, I just don't remember exactly when.

 

[Tim]

If you look at systems out there, there are more games that are skill driven/classless games than level/class games. The D20/D&D/OGL system yes three names but one core system) is the only one I can think of that has levels and classes. (there may have been others I just can't think of any) Most every other game since has been designed in responce to three things that players didn't like. The lack of skills, restricting classes, and the third addressed in some but not all, random stat generation. D&D took much of the decision making out of character design, but also much of the control, D20 was an attempt to put control back in the players hands while still keeping to the core concepts. Over all D20/OGL has been fairly successful and is a playable, fun, though ocasionally limited system to play. I personally would welcome any system that enters the market that breaks the current D20 glut. Perhaps RQ/OGL is that game. We will just have to wait and see.