[Rumor] Conan 2nd Ed to use Runequest system?

[High Lord Dee]

Let's get a couple of things straight:

1) Different systems suit different game genres and universes. The old, d6 style COC rules still rock, but only for playing COC or something in a mundane, normal human world. Try using it to run a crime/espionage game - it's great. D20 was built off of the "video game" concept of leveling up on a set incremental framework, that's why low lvl characters get more XP for a given encounter than high lvl characters do: It's a formula. It suits the fantasy genre be cause of this predictable engine, because it allows characters to succeed more often than not, unless rolls are poor (or good, if you look at it from the GM perspective.

With Conan D20, this formula is sent sideways because the aspect of incremental XP progression is excised, meaning there's no CR for monsters and everyone can get more or less XP depending on what the GM wants to award. This makes the setting more dangerous and unpredictable.

Let's face it though, D20 is a tight engine. The only flaws occur when a writer of a perticular supplement forgets to explain what the heck he truly meant by a new rule. Otherwise, the system welcomes and promotes on-the-fly rulings and makes for the most equal standing between players and GMs that has ever existed in this industry.

If there was a better mouse-trap out there (say RQ for instance) I also think we'd all know it. I personally love Hârnmaster, but either people have never heard of it, or it wouldn't be suited to running a Conan style game with. Conan is unique, remember: It has elements that should be very gritty and grounded in reality, but the fantasy elements are supposed to be far out. D20 accomplishes that wonderfully.

Why change? Because the money is somewhere else - that's the only reason to make such a business decision. I cannot fathom D20 vX.X going anywhere anytime soon, so the money being elsewhere theory just doesn't hold water in my view. The only other reason is to suit othe raspects of the liscenec (since this is a multi-media liscence that's pretty plausible) and the ONLY other conan thing yeat to be realeased that will impact the tone and feel of a game mechanic built for Conan...

...the MMORPG.

I think any decision to change the system over is because RQ mirrors what the designers of the MMORPG are doing, since D&D on-line would restrict the use of that code based on IP laws. Just a guess.

Which brings me to...

2) Open Liscence. All games are open open liscecen to an extent because NOBODY can copyright the mechanics. They can only copyright the actual content, and that's where Wizards OGL has helped. They ahve essentially said "We arent' going to quibble over the usage of the basic words that make out game function; use them to your heart's content and multiply." That's cool, but if I wanted to create a game that renamed the stats to BRAWN, AGILITY, ENDURANCE, etc. yet otherwise operated basically the same (roll a d20 versus a target number and see if you succeed) then I could. The OGL only allows the proliferation of the textual parts of the game that make it easier for people to make thie own knock-off modules and stuff.

That's why Conan isn't anbd OGL game.

:wink:

I also agree with most of your quote. Other than the concept of level being an MMORPG aspect. D&D has been around a lot longer then Windows or Macs and that is where they got the concept. I believe level is necessary in simulating an RPG game. I have heard arguments on this and many other forums opposing it but people need to remember that this a GAME. Without a level based system, it is very difficult to manage. I have also hear that challenge ratings are not very popular to some GM's. Never understood that one....As with all other d20 rules, you do not have to use them but they are there as a guideline if you choose to use them. Can help the GM from staring at the dice after his high level Giant has just killed a major character and has Great Cleave because he/she underestimated the difficulty.

Also, most d20 (since 3.0) campaigns that I have played in allow the GM to be the final say on XP. This varies from the old D&D systems in which you get x experience point for each monster slain and for each gold piece. It is now completely subjective and allows for the GM to pace the character advancement with that of the campaign. I did not like this at first but now I think it is actually a better way to play it.

Conan is a d20 game system. Albeit, a well thought out and true to Hyboria setting. Being that, it is also level based so not sure why the comparison to the MMORPG would favor RQ versus the MConan? Again, no CR but fairly true the major d20 concepts.

HLD

 

[trancejeremy]

Mongoose doesn't make many mistakes, business wise. So if they switch, they have good reason to.


However, I just plain don't think BRP is well suited for fantasy. I based this on trying to play/GM both Runequest and Stormbringer/Elric!

BRP works okay for Cthulhu, but in part because CoC is a deadly game. In my experience, players in fantasy games don't like rolling up new characters every other session. Which has been my experience with BRP and Stormbringer.

Basically all BRP is a levelless (and usually classesless, but not always) form of D&D except using a percentile based skill system, along with having to roll to see if you dodged or blocked an attack, and with fixed hit points.

Which sounds good on paper. Except in practice, once missed dodge or parry and you are dead. Because weapon damage is generally high enough to kill a normal person in one blow. Unless you put high scores in both Con and Size (Size is a new stat for BRP). (Which by the way, if you get a published Stormbringer scenario, every NPC just about has a Size and Con of at least 16)

When it comes to fantasy, Conan is not particularly gritty. I mean, he himself has killed 2 sons of a god (Frost Giant's Daughter), killed about a dozen men singled handedly when he was middled aged, has survived being crucifixed, out wrestled apes, etc. Conan as a character pretty much strains any gaming system - he completely shatters BRP. BRP couldn't even handle Elric very well - he had a skill of over 600% in Stormbringer, which is just silly.

Granted, OGL Conan doesn't model Conan perfectly - it doesn't handle the Frost Giant's daughter story for instance (since he's 2nd level in that, while the giants are much, much, much tougher than that. Not to mention the daughter herself). But it does a much better job than anything else I've seen, and BRP wouldn't even come close.

Still, on the plus side, if they switch, I'm through with buying Mongoose forever. Which will save me a lot of money and aggravation.



Also, it's not really quicker, because while it is somewhat more simple, you basically have to do twice the rolling.

Roll to hit. Then the defender has to make a defense roll.

Then if that fails, attack rolls damage. Then the defender rolls defense.

Stormbringer had something called "Demon" armor and weapons. Basically they were demons bound into armor or weapons which added damage dice. So in some cases, you have to do a whole lot of rolling.

 

[Turloigh]

I also agree with most of your quote. Other than the concept of level being an MMORPG aspect. D&D has been around a lot longer then Windows or Macs and that is where they got the concept.

I agree. Computer games most certainly didn't invent experience levels; AFAIK, D&D did.

I believe level is necessary in simulating an RPG game. I have heard arguments on this and many other forums opposing it but people need to remember that this a GAME. Without a level based system, it is very difficult to manage.

I beg to differ. There are enough skill-based systems out there that work equally well if not better without levels (or classes).

 

[Decurio]

Still, on the plus side, if they switch, I'm through with buying Mongoose forever. Which will save me a lot of money and aggravation..

Not to pick on you purposefully, trancejeremy, but I am continually amazed at the vehemence of the language used throughout this thread. If Mongoose stopped publishing the Conan line tomorrow, I would have one hell of a collection of material that would allow my ongoing Conan campaign to continue for years. Mongoose has repeatedly bent over backwards to do right by its customer base; I have no doubts that they will continue to do so.

 

[Trodax]

OK, this thread has really (d)evolved into BRP vs Conan d20, but I'm bored at work so I'll continue the trend...

I believe level is necessary in simulating an RPG game. I have heard arguments on this and many other forums opposing it but people need to remember that this a GAME. Without a level based system, it is very difficult to manage.

Come on, this is just silly; there are tons of level-less games out there that people seem to be enjoying and managing just fine, so it can't be true for all people (if you only want to play level-based games, that is of course fine). I really enjoy d20 and all, but I certainly don't think levels are necessary for a game to be fun and functional.

However, I just plain don't think BRP is well suited for fantasy.

I agree BRP is a lot deadlier than Conan d20. It all comes down to how heroic/gritty you want your Conan game to be, and people seem to have quite disparate views of Conan as written by REH. Me, I like my Conan heroes to be able to wade through hordes of picts and take on man-apes with a dagger, so I enjoy the d20 version because I think it does this stuff great. But for a little more low-key game (albeit still bloody and gory of course; this is the Hyborian Age after all :wink: ), I think BRP could work fine as well.

If I can continue to ramble a bit, my biggest problem with BRP combat is actually that it treats different weapons as different skills. The seasoned warrior with Axe 150% gets stuck with a measly 25% (or whatever) if he picks up a sword. Might be realistic if you've never wielded a sword before, but I don't like it. Especially for Conan, where I think heroes should be versatile above all else, I prefer the d20 way of handling it (BAB).
(Perhaps there is fix for this in BRP that I'm not aware of. In that case; sweet. )

 

[Turloigh]

If I can continue to ramble a bit, my biggest problem with BRP combat is actually that it treats different weapons as different skills. The seasoned warrior with Axe 150% gets stuck with a measly 25% (or whatever) if he picks up a sword. Might be realistic if you've never wielded a sword before, but I don't like it. Especially for Conan, where I think heroes should be versatile above all else, I prefer the d20 way of handling it (BAB).
(Perhaps there is fix for this in BRP that I'm not aware of. In that case; sweet. )

Not yet, but I'm pretty sure this will be covered by the upcoming BRP "Chaosium d100" system. I expect that the rules and options in that book should work well with Mongoose's RQ game. (In fact, I think both of them together will form a pretty powerful gaming package... but that's already off-topic.)

 

[Enpeze]

Turloigh - Not yet, but I'm pretty sure this will be covered by the upcoming BRP "Chaosium d100" system.

Is there any reason why you think this? Do you have any special info about it? As far as I heard its just a 90% reprint of the RQ3 rules.

Trodax - If I can continue to ramble a bit, my biggest problem with BRP combat is actually that it treats different weapons as different skills. The seasoned warrior with Axe 150% gets stuck with a measly 25% (or whatever) if he picks up a sword. Might be realistic if you've never wielded a sword before, but I don't like it.

yes this a flaw in the rules. The only system I know which can handle this in a satisfying way seems to be Gurps.

Trodax- I agree BRP is a lot deadlier than Conan d20. It all comes down to how heroic/gritty you want your Conan game to be, and people seem to have quite disparate views of Conan as written by REH. Me, I like my Conan heroes to be able to wade through hordes of picts and take on man-apes with a dagger, so I enjoy the d20 version because I think it does this stuff great

I like realistic and deadly combat in fantasy games (if you can say realistic and fantasy in one sentence) I like if players (and NPCs too) have to loose something if they go to combat. (hand, leg or head) This makes for a much better combat experience and much more adrenaline than the clean and unrealistic combat between D20 heroes which have 100HP each and impale each other 10times before one is down.

At least they adapted the current conan d20 a little bit to serve the dark and gritty athmosphere of the books. What did they do?
-they made armor to stop damage. (like RQ).
-they introduced parries and dodge. (like RQ).
-whats the next change? no XP? no restricting character classes? Fewer HP?
So it seems they took some elements out of good old runequest and it is perceived as great improvement (which it is of course). But why not playing RQ directly?

And BTW: in RQ you can also wade through your enemies if you have a high skill and a hard punch. The difference is that you should not do this without armor and/or high defense skills. But it is possible. In the RQ forum I had just a discussion with others which have played such heroes (with up to 200%)

 

[Sutek]

I also agree with most of your quote. Other than the concept of level being an MMORPG aspect. D&D has been around a lot longer then Windows or Macs and that is where they got the concept.

I agree. Computer games most certainly didn't invent experience levels; AFAIK, D&D did.

I didn't say they did.

D&D 3.0 emulates a video game level progression formula. You get X experience for encounter A at 1st, Y for the same encounter at 2nd and so on. The concept of challenge ratings is the same thing: certain encounters are modeled for certain experience levels. That's why every class goes up to level 20 and gets special power at each level. It's why experience rewards and skill ranks and all that work in a regular, progressive, predictable pattern.

The design of "If you fight a BLARG at 6th level then you get X experience points." is a video game concept. D&D used to be more like Conan D20, where it was reasonable to hear someone say "Holy crap! A BLARG? We can't fight that!! RUN!!!!" There was no metric to determine if a monster was too powerful other than how many HP it had and what it's AC and powers were. If it seemed too powerful, it might be. In D&D 3.0, a CR 6 monster is made to be a straight-up fight for 4 charactes of 6th level - it's fomulaic.

D&D, and indeed RPGs in general, shouldn't be that way, or should be less that way. D&D 3.0 was a good rewrite because it made the game and the hoddy easy for people to get back into after all these years, but the revisions of the engine that followed, namely Conan d20, have only improved on it.

But it's not a d20 versus RQ issue for me. D20 is the industry leader, so it makes more sense to appeal to that audience. That is, unless the MMORPG that is being designed has a progresssion and mechanical structure that is more similar to RQ. In my opinion, that's a very wrong reason to change, potentially alienating a dedicated customer base.

If Mongoose stopped publishing the Conan line tomorrow, I would have one hell of a collection of material that would allow my ongoing Conan campaign to continue for years. Mongoose has repeatedly bent over backwards to do right by its customer base; I have no doubts that they will continue to do so.

Yes, but then I'd have to simply say "It was fun whhile it lasted - too bad there's no other source for my Conan gaming pleasure...<sigh>." But, by switching systems, they leave me stuck with hundreds of dollars worth of material and a whole new line that I can access unless I lay out more cash. Yeah, sure, we live in a friggin capitalist, money driven society here, but that's just a slap in the face for my monitary loyalty.

They plan to continue product, they risk the loyal follower of the previous line never buying another Mongoose product again. I know I'm on that boat. Is it worth it?

OK, this thread has really (d)evolved into BRP vs Conan d20, but I'm bored at work so I'll continue the trend...

Yeah, this isn't a discussion about system for me. It's about the @$$ rape of Mongoose using my money I spent on Conan d20 stuff to R & D Conan RQ and stick me out in the cold...

:evil:

Again, for the record (who's keeping the record, anyway - lol) Hârnmaster uses a "weapon is a skill" systyem too, but there are also weapon groupings and if you pick up a weapon that you aren't greatly skilled in, but have at least one weapon skill in that category, you don't suffer as badly. The system is level-less and has an awsome roll-vs-roll combat system that is as truly awsome and functional as it is deadly. Check it out: Hârnmaster

 

[Turloigh]

I agree. Computer games most certainly didn't invent experience levels; AFAIK, D&D did.

I didn't say they did. (snip)

In that case, I stand corrected.

 

[Turloigh]

Turloigh - Not yet, but I'm pretty sure this will be covered by the upcoming BRP "Chaosium d100" system.

Is there any reason why you think this? Do you have any special info about it? As far as I heard its just a 90% reprint of the RQ3 rules.

Sometimes I just can't keep my mouth shut...

I'm a playtester for that game. I'd rather not go into details, though. Let's just say the particular rule I'm referring to is part of the other 10%. And since the book isn't finished yet, it may still be subject to change.

 

[Taharqa]

[
At least they adapted the current conan d20 a little bit to serve the dark and gritty athmosphere of the books. What did they do?
-they made armor to stop damage. (like RQ).
-they introduced parries and dodge. (like RQ).
-whats the next change? no XP? no restricting character classes? Fewer HP?
So it seems they took some elements out of good old runequest and it is perceived as great improvement (which it is of course). But why not playing RQ directly?

You are making some big assumptions with this claim. Parries and armor as DR were not the sole property of RQ. It is far more likely that these rules in Conan is based off of some of the alternate rules in the SRD.

Did those alternate rules come about from RQ? Maybe, maybe not. RPGs have been riffing off one another for a long time and it seems difficult to clearly state who had what idea first. Nonetheless, I agree with you that RQ was a very innovative game in the early 1980s. If you had given me a choice to play either RQ or 1st ed AD&D, I would have happily taken RQ because I despised the - yes, I will say it - klunkiness of 1st edition. But, we have moved forward and whatever good ideas came out of RQ have been incorporated into better - and yes I will say it - less klunky games.

(as a side note, I find it amusing that the RQ-fanboys keep referring to how easy and streamlined RQ is while the first preview of MRQ discusses the need to make a complex game simpler)

Now it may be that Mongoose will make some drastic changes to RQ that will radically improve MRQ and make it more of a viable modern-day RPG. More power to them. IMHO, as expressed earlier, "roll-under-your-skill" game mechanics are bad mechanics, but I know other people are fine with them.

 

[Enpeze]

You are making some big assumptions with this claim. Parries and armor as DR were not the sole property of RQ. It is far more likely that these rules in Conan is based off of some of the alternate rules in the SRD.

Oh yes of course. RQ was the first game which had these 2 innovations. All other games which appeared after RQ copied it. Its the "grandfather" of all classless, skilldriven games. Its the original. Maybe the conan d20 rules are not directly from RQ. Maybe they are. Its not that important. If not, then they are inspired from another game. And if you follow it to the next game which used it and to the next you will finally recognize that RQ is the source behind the DR and parry rules.

Eg. If I am tracing back the origin of character classes, levels, and XP etc. I will finally always find D&D as grandfather of such a rule type.

(as a side note, I find it amusing that the RQ-fanboys keep referring to how easy and streamlined RQ is while the first preview of MRQ discusses the need to make a complex game simpler)

In the first moment this seems a little bit odd. But its true. This is because RQ is just one incarnation of BRP. The tastes of the RQ audience regarding complexity are different. I for my part did never play the full set of RQ3 rules. I left some more complex ones out and used easier replacement rules of other BRP games like CoC or stormbringer. So if I speak of RQ I speak in reality of BRP or RQ "light" when I say its easy and streamlined. Other RQ-fans have a different approach to the system. I know even some guys which have so many house rules for their RQ game that a d20 fan would be proud.

Now it may be that Mongoose will make some drastic changes to RQ that will radically improve MRQ and make it more of a viable modern-day RPG. More power to them.

Soon we will see how good it really is. I think it will be good, because its tested thoroughly, but who knows?

IMHO, as expressed earlier, "roll-under-your-skill" game mechanics are bad mechanics, but I know other people are fine with them.

in RQ you can have 5 different outcomes in a skill test. (critical, special, success, failure and fumble) IMO this is all you need for a simple and fast game.

 

[quigs]

Perhaps someone can move this thread into another forum? Maybe toss it into the RQ forums or something. Its rather annoying to have this soaking up all the Conan posts.

This definately doesn't appear to be about Conan anymore.

 

[slaughterj]

I believe level is necessary in simulating an RPG game. I have heard arguments on this and many other forums opposing it but people need to remember that this a GAME. Without a level based system, it is very difficult to manage.

Come on, this is just silly; there are tons of level-less games out there that people seem to be enjoying and managing just fine, so it can't be true for all people (if you only want to play level-based games, that is of course fine). I really enjoy d20 and all, but I certainly don't think levels are necessary for a game to be fun and functional.

Exactly. Ever heard of point-buy? Hero System for instance? It's been around for 20+ years, and there are plenty of others out there that have done just fine. There's no need for levels, classes, or even hit points!

 

[Decurio]

Perhaps someone can move this thread into another forum? Maybe toss it into the RQ forums or something. Its rather annoying to have this soaking up all the Conan posts.

This definately doesn't appear to be about Conan anymore.

Agreed. It long ago degenerated into ' MY system is better than YOUR system so THERE!'

 

[Enpeze]

Perhaps someone can move this thread into another forum? Maybe toss it into the RQ forums or something. Its rather annoying to have this soaking up all the Conan posts.

This definately doesn't appear to be about Conan anymore.

Agreed. It long ago degenerated into ' MY system is better than YOUR system so THERE!'

Is this a RP forum or not? I yes, why should we not able to discuss rules or history of RP systems? Or compare them to each other? :roll:

Nearly every post in this thread was about either your beloved conan d20 or the upcoming system MRQ which is rumored to replace d20 for the conan setting. So its defenitely not off-topic if you like it or not.

 

[Maximo]

I have played Call of Cthulhu for a lot of time and, in fact, my favourite sourcebook for ANY game is Delta Green...
...however, this is despite BRP. Like I think Darrin, I am in the minority which thinks CoC d20 was in fact an improvement over BRP Cthulhu.

Don't get me wrong, CoC is awesome, but this is despite having a very outdated ruleset which works worst during action scenes. Most of these flaws do not show while PCs fight (well, sort of) creatures, but when they face cultists or other humans they can lead to ridiculous situations.

In CoC, Initiative is fixed forever and is equal to a players Dex. So, no matter how good a PC is with a rifle, if he just rolled a 8 for Dex most people in the world will shoot before him. In other words, an athlete with a Dex of, say, 17 who takes hunting as his hobby and gets a 80% shotgun is a killing machine, whereas a Navy Seal with Dex 11 and Rifle 95% would most likely die first time he enters combat.

d20 Conan fixed this by making Initiative grow with level (w/ Ref save to be precise), so a more skilled PC will have more chances to act first.

As for the version of BRP used in Elric, I consider it to be a very good system for Elric, but I don't think it would fit Conan. The attack/parry system is good, but I want PCs to take some bruises, and in Elric even an armoured folk who doesn't get to parry twice will most likely be dead.

In d20 Conan you can have players endure lots of damage from minor falls, hits and even traps to get the feel of PCs having to endure a lot of setbacks to save the day and PCs will always have the menace of Massive Damage looming over their heads. It works quite nicely. In Elric you just can't have this sort of hard as nails characters.

I think the Conan d20 system is not perfect, but it works well for this sort of stories and I doubt replacing it with RuneQuest will add much to the game. It will solve some problems, add more and in the end all people who bought books in the Conan d20 line (like me) will feel dissapointed.

BTW, though it is a bit off-topic, some fellow CoC gamer told me that he found way too more dangerous d20 version. Perhaps Ghouls and other vermin may have been notched down a bit, but Shoggoths and truly dangerous creatures are far more powerful. I'll never understand why Azatoth is so weak in BRP (yes, I say weak. A lucky PC with a M16 can send him straight to hell, whereas in d20 this is just impossible).

 

[Decurio]

Perhaps someone can move this thread into another forum? Maybe toss it into the RQ forums or something. Its rather annoying to have this soaking up all the Conan posts.

This definately doesn't appear to be about Conan anymore.

Agreed. It long ago degenerated into ' MY system is better than YOUR system so THERE!'

Is this a RP forum or not? I yes, why should we not able to discuss rules or history of RP systems? Or compare them to each other? :roll:

Nearly every post in this thread was about either your beloved conan d20 or the upcoming system MRQ which is rumored to replace d20 for the conan setting. So its defenitely not off-topic if you like it or not.

Its not off-topic but it people will take you a lot more seriously if you actually make constructive arguments for the position you are advocating rather than a string of "RQ SUXXORS!!! D20 PWNS!!!"

How you and your arguments are perceived has an awful lot to do with how they are recevied. If you truly don't want Mongoose to publish an MEQ version (something I am looking forward to, BTW) then offer them constructive reasons why they shouldn't.

 

[Enpeze]

Its not off-topic but it people will take you a lot more seriously if you actually make constructive arguments for the position you are advocating rather than a string of "RQ SUXXORS!!! D20 PWNS!!!"

?
What do you mean with the terms "suxxors" or "pwans"? Sorry I dont understand. English is not my native tongue but even after a close look in the dictionary I was not able to translate these words.

How you and your arguments are perceived has an awful lot to do with how they are recevied. If you truly don't want Mongoose to publish an MEQ version (something I am looking forward to, BTW) then offer them constructive reasons why they shouldn't.

MEQ? Surely you mean MRQ... I think we are on the same side in this matter. I would also prefer a rule change to MRQ. Its simply said the better system for the brutal conan world and is closer to the REH stories than d20.

One example for this claim is that the most conan stories are dealing with severed and maimed arms, heads etc. In MRQ this bloody battle result is quite the standard. In d20 you cannot simulate such situtations, because there are no hitlocations involved.

 

[Decurio]

My apologies Enpeze, if it appeared I was picking on you I wasn't!

"SUXXORZ" and "PWNS" are just slang terms. You're better off not knowing.

I for one, am looking forward to an MRQ (yeah, thats what I meant...typing too quickly at work!) Conan, but I have also really enjoyed OGL Conan. Its the only D20 game I play.

I just let the general state of whinyness on the forums get to me.

Enpeze, where are you from?