[Rumor] Conan 2nd Ed to use Runequest system?

[Azgulor]

As I understand things, the concern over the pending 4th edition is not about legal issues, but about the disappearance of a fan base for D20/OGL products. Most gamers will simply follow D&D wherever it goes and if WotC doesn't make 4th edition open game content, then other game companies that rely on D20 will increasingly be relying on selling a product which will appear "outdated." That is the reason that companies that have primarily relied on D20 are looking toward their own house systems.

While I understand your point, I don't think it holds up well as an argument for a different system. If the the mindset is "We can't continue OGL because we have to follow the WotC herd" then MRQ is a mighty strange way of keeping that fan base.

Azgulor

 

[Azgulor]

One last point on the whole 4E thing. Just as we Conan diehards are against a "2E" Conan being Runequest, there is a BIG (or at least vocal) group of D&D players out there that will only jump to 4E kicking and screaming (3.5 is still a bitter topic with many of them) or not at all. They too, have invested too much in d20 to jump ship just because WotC wants them to do so. While I have no doubt WotC will do a 4E too soon, I do doubt that it will be the cash cow they think it will be.

Back on topic, keep Conan as the Conan OGL game by Crom!

Azgulor

 

[urdinaran]

Yeah, WotC has made some pretty bad games recently: Dreamblade, Duelmasters, Hecatomb. They proclaimed each one as the "next big thing".

 

[Dr. Halflight]

Yeah, WotC has made some pretty bad games recently: Dreamblade, Duelmasters, Hecatomb. They proclaimed each one as the "next big thing".

Well Dreamblade hasn't released yet & has a surprising depth of strategy. It didn't matter if Duelmaster did well the US, it was a HUGE hit in Japan. And unfortunately Hecatomb directly competed with Magic. For the most part the only competition WotC has is itself. And the same goes for D&D. Don't ever believe otherwise. TSR competed against itself with its large number of releases each month, thats why WotC has a scaled back schedule.

The OGL won't go away, but a huge number of fans buy D20/OGL material because its compatible to D&D. If 4th isn't Open Content, then alot of OGL publishers will lose a large portion of their market. Thats why companies like Mongoose & Green Ronin are moving away from D20/OGL material at least to some degree. They want to be long term viable RPG publishers. Their making good business decisions.

I'm not saying Conan couldn't survive for years as an OGL game. But I'm sure that some D&D players would no longer buy it if its not compatible with D&D. Its a shame, but its a reality.

DOc

 

[Enpeze]

One last point on the whole 4E thing. Just as we Conan diehards are against a "2E" Conan being Runequest, there is a BIG (or at least vocal) group of D&D players out there that will only jump to 4E kicking and screaming (3.5 is still a bitter topic with many of them) or not at all. They too, have invested too much in d20 to jump ship just because WotC wants them to do so. While I have no doubt WotC will do a 4E too soon, I do doubt that it will be the cash cow they think it will be.

Oh I think it will the biggest cash cow of all. For example 4.0 will be the system of choice of all the new D&D gamers which are attracted by the computer games NWN2 and D&D online. It will be the system which has the best WotC support ever. The fans will storm the shops to buy it. The show has to go on. Dont believe that with 3.5. the whole D&D rule developement has stopped. WotC has to earn money so it is forced to release a new version from time to time with new source books etc. In 5 years the fans will play happily D&D 5.5 and nobody will remember 3.5. anymore. d20 has only a chance if they update it as OGL with every new incarnation of D&D but this is not very likely as it seems now.

 

[Dr. Halflight]

Oh I think it will the biggest cash cow of all. For example 4.0 will be the system of choice of all the new D&D gamers which are attracted by the computer games NWN2 and D&D online.

Your 100% right. D&D 3.5 proved to WotC that if you make it they will buy it. I'm a game buyer for a small chain in the US. I'm still surpised how many PHB's I move every week. Any other company in the RPG industry could survive for years just on WotC's PHB sales & make a fortune. Buy the time 4.0 is released, they'll already be building 4.5/5.0. Just like 3.5 was being built when 3.0 was released.

Doc

 

[Sutek]

Oh I think it will the biggest cash cow of all. For example 4.0 will be the system of choice of all the new D&D gamers which are attracted by the computer games NWN2 and D&D online. It will be the system which has the best WotC support ever. The fans will storm the shops to buy it. The show has to go on. Dont believe that with 3.5. the whole D&D rule developement has stopped. WotC has to earn money so it is forced to release a new version from time to time with new source books etc. In 5 years the fans will play happily D&D 5.5 and nobody will remember 3.5. anymore. d20 has only a chance if they update it as OGL with every new incarnation of D&D but this is not very likely as it seems now.

Which goes back to my ascertation that Mongoose is only considering a move to Conan RQ due to the online RPG coming out soon. They want something that better emulates the feel of that game.

What it'll do for me instead is just what 3.0 did and what 3.5 almost did: make me not want to buy anything of thiers anymore. Face it, if D&D puts out a totally reveamped system, well, more people play &D than Conan and there will be more chance of people geting into it. If Conan switches, it's a niche within a niche, and that could spell disaster for the line, IMO.

 

[Enpeze]

Which goes back to my ascertation that Mongoose is only considering a move to Conan RQ due to the online RPG coming out soon. They want something that better emulates the feel of that game.

This may be one of the reasons, but who knows how Conan Online feels? Which outsider has played it till now?

 

[Strom]

Oh I think it will the biggest cash cow of all. For example 4.0 will be the system of choice of all the new D&D gamers which are attracted by the computer games NWN2 and D&D online. It will be the system which has the best WotC support ever. The fans will storm the shops to buy it. The show has to go on. Dont believe that with 3.5. the whole D&D rule developement has stopped. WotC has to earn money so it is forced to release a new version from time to time with new source books etc. In 5 years the fans will play happily D&D 5.5 and nobody will remember 3.5. anymore. d20 has only a chance if they update it as OGL with every new incarnation of D&D but this is not very likely as it seems now.

Which goes back to my ascertation that Mongoose is only considering a move to Conan RQ due to the online RPG coming out soon. They want something that better emulates the feel of that game.

What it'll do for me instead is just what 3.0 did and what 3.5 almost did: make me not want to buy anything of thiers anymore. Face it, if D&D puts out a totally reveamped system, well, more people play &D than Conan and there will be more chance of people geting into it. If Conan switches, it's a niche within a niche, and that could spell disaster for the line, IMO.

If what you are saying is true then Mongoose will have to revamp the entire Conan RPG not just the system to make it emulate the MMORPG. Funcom is adding magical healing, guilds, new classes, etc. It would be a Conan game in name only. If anything Mongoose should be telling CPI and Funcom to make the game more like OGL Conan.

 

[High Lord Dee]

I think we have had some very good posts from all sides involved here. Thank you D&D guys for your input as it must carry weight in these types of business decisions.

I am hoping this thread just fades away....

MRQ fans should have enough new material with their revived game for awhile and Mongoose can monitor the results versus the d20 and make a good decison. To add Conan to the line immediately would not be prudent. Period.

I am hoping :roll: that this is my last post on the most speculative thread that I have experienced on these boards since I have joined. Have fun with MRQ all you RQ die hards. Your arguments seem to be sincere and well founded in your hearts but this has always been a d20 game and forum.

Time to log off and wait and see......

HLD

 

[thulsa]

The OGL won't go away, but a huge number of fans buy D20/OGL material because its compatible to D&D. If 4th isn't Open Content, then alot of OGL publishers will lose a large portion of their market. Thats why companies like Mongoose & Green Ronin are moving away from D20/OGL material at least to some degree. They want to be long term viable RPG publishers. Their making good business decisions.

But doesn't Mongoose (and other publishers) lose exactly the same market portion by moving to a separate rule system, that they would lose by WotC closing the d20 System? They would lose the big D&D/d20 crowd (ie. those who want to play only D&D, and only the latest and greatest edition) in either case...

- thulsa

 

[Sutek]

Exactly. Right now, the D20 Conan stuff is at least compatible with the top-selling system out there, so cross polination is at least possible. By staying in line with the top seller, Mongoose gets a chunk of that market share. Change systems, and it's Mongoose choosing to let that chunk go in hopes that all the Conan D20 switch and all the RQ people become willing to side aside Glorantha. neither of which seems likely to me.

 

[Dr. Halflight]

But doesn't Mongoose (and other publishers) lose exactly the same market portion by moving to a separate rule system, that they would lose by WotC closing the d20 System? They would lose the big D&D/d20 crowd (ie. those who want to play only D&D, and only the latest and greatest edition) in either case...

- thulsa

Well but in stead of just losing customers, they'd at least gain a new market. And we don't how successful RQ will be yet.

Here is another perspective on a switch in rules systems. I'm not saying Mongoose are these kind of publishers, but Conan under RQ could be a similar decision to 3.5. There generally is only so many books you can create for a line. If a line completes, you could do a new additon under a new ruleset & recycle information for the rules & make a 2nd return on the material thats already created. It works for WotC & White Wolf.

Its not a bad business decision.

Doc

 

[thulsa]

Here is another perspective on a switch in rules systems. I'm not saying Mongoose are these kind of publishers, but Conan under RQ could be a similar decision to 3.5. There generally is only so many books you can create for a line. If a line completes, you could do a new additon under a new ruleset & recycle information for the rules & make a 2nd return on the material thats already created. It works for WotC & White Wolf.

Its not a bad business decision.

You mean, "same shit, new wrapping"...

I understand that to be in business, Mongoose needs to make money. If they really feel that they need a new edition to re-sell old material (like WotC who probably release a 4th Ed within a few years), I would suggest that Mongoose release a 3rd Edition of the Conan rulebook (and a second edition of Scrolls of Skelos), where they fix the countless typos, layout errors, inconsistencies and stat block errors which still exist in those books (despite the Atlantean edition). Maybe even do something about Defensive Blast and other common issues complained about in this forum. I believe such a book would sell very well if it is done with real focus on quality control.

Plus, not even half of Hyboria has been covered by sourcebooks yet. Mongoose can continue to publish regional sourcebooks and adventures for years without exhausting all the possibilities. No need to switch to an entirely new system.

- thulsa

 

[Castel]

Well i must say that in my opinion there is no need for MGP to do a 2nd edition of conan so soon...

The D20 OGL system is consistent, and Conan RPG does portrait Hyboria very good, even if the system does suffer from some of the D20 "problems"

If a 2nd edition would be done i would like it to be an expasion of the D20 system , with logic changes like "Parry/Dogde defense" were...

Changing to a diferent system like RQ doesn´t sound so good...
Not that is dislike RQ, i am still to play the system...
But the D20 system has still much potencial to develop...

I also understand that some RQ fans want a way to play Conan with that system...
A convertion guide or something would be nice...

I hope that conan Rpg lasts for a long time, and that moongoose learn with their mistakes...

We like colors, we like pictures, no B&W books!

Actually what conan needs in my opinion is the compilation of HF books in a Hardcover one (in color this time), a revision of the core book ("Conan RPG : Hyborian edition" lol) and more "Adventure Scenarios" for those days you are not inspired...

That is all, have fun GMing and RPing...

 

[Ltlconf]

Hello Folks,


Yeup I've heard the rumours of a 4th edition, and this is why WOC is yanking things. On the other hands, things could be much more complex than this. I reckon few of us have business licenses and successful companies. Those that do please feel free to pipe in at let us know what they think as I'm getting contradictory rumours and, frankly, more concerned with whats going on overseas. However Dr. Halflight has a solid point.
This seems to be what he and some others here are saying: While 3.5 made alot of folks bitter, they still bought it, and for every person we know who didn't (and we all know some) new folks bought in. That's the point it seems: WOC is looking at NEW customers, not just established ones. They feel (rightly or wrongly) that they must expand the base and the other companies such as Mongoose feel they must keep up to tap into that vast market. To stay ahead of the game and keep all those OGL and D20 licenses from sapping them, or anyone catching up, then change is a must. Oh something like this anyway.
Makes sense to me. I, like alot of folks here, bought CONAN both because I like CONAN and because I knew I could get a group together to play it easily. After all, it used D20 and every RPGer that walks, crawls and flies it seems knows D20 to some degree. Just about every player I got was a D&D player or some other D20 player because that's the VAST bulk of the players. And most are like any other consumer: they go with the trends. I love other games such as FADING SUNS, CALL OF CTHULU, and ARS MAGICA but I've found it a pain in the butt to get any sort of group to play them They play D20 and thats all they want to learn. Funny that, cause only a decade ago this same bunch felt the same way about 2ND ED. Oh well. The bulk of RPGers these days are like any bunch of consumers: going for the bigger, better thing. Or at least that's whats WOC is counting on. Does that sum it up Hlaflight and Enpeze?

Let it be known, I agree with Castel, but I play CONAN because its, well, CONAN and not for the system. As long as the system captures the setting well, I'll not gripe overmuch. I don't begrudge Mongoose its silver, and I'll not stop playing a setting I love due to marketing decisions above my pay grade. Just me.

 

[Sutek]

Also remember that when D&D 3.5 came out, it was pretty much the only well supported RPG on the market. 3.0 was flawed, and 3.5 "fixed" a lot of stuff, so that was a draw to get on board the new wave too.

With Conan, everything pretty much works. Mongoose wanted to release a 1.5 with corrections and errata included, so along came the Atlantean Edition. Personally, I bought mine at full price just to support Mongoose as producing the "better sytem version" off of the D20 base.A lot of folks sent in thier page corner and were able to get the new version at a discount; a supremely generous offer on the part of Mmongoose, and one that garnered a great deal of product/brand loyalty amongst 3.0 and 3.5 defectors.

Now, I have to wonder why there's even a desire to release any form of 2.0 Conan. Honestly, the only thing I can think of is market pressure or a feeling in the design levels of Mongoose that Conan/Hyboria is too finite and that pretty soon they'll reach the end of viable topics to generate product off of. Both notions are B.S., frankly.

Market pressure would only be generated if there was direct competition, and the only forseeable competition is the on-line game. The RPG market itself is pretty volitile; we gamers tend to flip-flop on genres and titles at the drop of a hat,being totally into D&D one week and then Shadowrun the next. But you can't react in a print/book industry to that sort of thing - you have to just stick to your guns and continually make quality, consistant stuff until the line fizzles. Conan probably won't fizzle, anytime soon, thought, if the novels are any indication. So why bother with a 2.0 on the grounds of market? It makes no sense. The fact that there's a single, huge, $50 rule book seems to elude people as a wise choice for the line. Instead of having a PHB and DMG separate at lower prices, everybody playing the Conan game needs only one book, but they have to pay to get it. A wise business plan would take those facts into account - essentially, they make thier money off of the supplementary books and only break even (or even take a small loss) on main rule book sales knowing everybody needs one anyway.

Considering Hyboria and the Conan property too finite is ludicrous. Just doing supplemental material every 6 months on one country at a time would keep them in sales for a very long time. Books on NPCs, monsters, and varient/supplemental rules are the cash cow of any RPG line anyway. In most cases, game companies fowl up the supplemental product and we consumers are faced with $30 books of dubious quality and information. This has yet to be the case woth the Conan line, and as long as they keep the same writers and designers, I can't see the future looking real bleak in terms of supplemental materials for Conan D20.

Now, one factor that hasn't been mentioned is the Howard estate. If they say that they want unity between elements of the liscence, then Mongoose may have little choice but to change the line to meet that desire. If the Howard estate wants, for example, the on-line game to be based on 4 classes and 6 races usuing a percentile skill-based progression system, and if they further believe that the book-based RPG should reflect that decision, then Mongoose may be considering RQ to be the closest option to these wishes, thus opting to call it a 2nd edition jsut to save thier involvemtn in the property. That sounds like a far fetched idea, but it's essentially what happened to the recent Lord of the Rings game that, by the way, is no longer being published.*


* granted, that was also a factor of that lisence being so bloody expensive and Decipher already having difficulties in the RPG arena. That and being purchased by Wizards, who, if you haven't been keeping up, also has a popular fantasy role playing game with elves and dwarves and halflings...

 

[Bregales]

Got tipped off to this from our gamer/GM:

]Thursday, August 3rd, 2006

D&D 4th Edition News

*Yes, you saw that right. I've just added a news category for D&D 4th Edition News. Why? Because today I saw my first bona fide 4E rumour, and it came, aptly enough, from Eric Noah:

On a more serious note ... it is ironic that even yesterday I got some major scoops about the future of D&D. It is sounding like some of our most paranoid fears are in fact in the works.

-4E already in the works? Check.
-Even more miniatures-centric? Check.
-Much smaller bundles of game info, packaged and sold separately? Check.
-A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely? Check. (Apparently only miniatures and Magic are making any money for WotC).

Unfortunately I can't go into how I got the info or who gave it to me. And I don't think even WotC knows when they're going to announce anything. I got the impression that timing such an announcement with GenCon was no longer seen as optimal or necessary. But please take all as unsubstantiated speculation ... as usual!

Here's the url I copied the above from: http://www.enworld.org/ under the Thurs Aug 4 date listing.

 

[Turloigh]

Could somebody start a "D&D 4th edition" thread before we get further off-topic, please? I tend to believe this merits a discussion of its own.

 

[Bregales]

Sure, start away. I looked for one before posting that last night, and there wasn't one, so I posted here because this thread is full of speculation and conjectures without a full formal statement from Mongoose, so in all the questioning about why switch to RuneQuest I thought this 4th ed. business might give a hint why, since Matthew had written on EN World several months ago that the future of d20 products was in doubt given WotC's hinting at a drop of the 3.x system (I had looked for his notice there w/o success, it seems that said notice has since been removed from there, and AFAICT the notice I posted last night was first to reissue the 4.0 rumor).

While I don't think it's off-topic, I agree it may need it's own thread.