[Rumor] Conan 2nd Ed to use Runequest system?

[Taharqa]

Taharqua - In any case I am done with this. I doubt Mongoose will be foolish enough to divorce a successful product from the D20 fan base. If they do, then I will move onto other systems and other companies.

May I have your conan books?
No seriously. It seems you are playing conan because of the d20 system not because of conan. But I am sure that there are many true conan fans out there which would welcome the change to an easier and deadlier game system. A system which is much better suited to the dark conan athmosphere than d20. (with all its multi-classes and levels or other rule heavy nonsense)

:evil: Ok, I said I was done, but that was before you got personal. You do realize that insulting someone's dedication to REH's vision is the worst insult possible on this list?

A quick glance at our profiles will speak for itself. I have been an active and contributing member of the Conan boards since the game began and as my sig shows I have spent quite a bit of my own time designing a useful tool for the community. You on the other hand haven't even posted a single thing to the Conan boards until this discussion. So stop with the slander.

 

[Trodax]

Maybe they'll make published supplements all fluff, and provide crunch as free downloads. This is a business model that I'm suprised hasn't happened yet.

It's just starting to happen, with Green Ronin deciding to produce the next version of Freeport as a completely crunch-free, pure setting book.

You know, for the Conan line, this would make me a 100% satisfied customer. No need to pay for crunch at all!

I'm not sure it would work, though; it seems a lot of people are interested in getting their supplements spiced up with some new feats or whatnot. Not having that as part of the books might loose a couple of sales.

Also, not that I actually know anything about this stuff, but I would imagine that a little crunch is a pretty easy thing to fill out a sourcebook with. For example, the Stygia sourcebook has approximately (very approximately) 25 pages worth of new feats, spells, prestige classes, NPC and monster writeups etc. If these pages of crunch were taken out and supplied as a free download, and the sourcebook slimmed down from 160 to 136 pages, people would probably be bitching about the $29.95 pricetag.

 

[Taharqa]

I don't need all of the crunch, but I do find NPC statblocks to be an invaluable time-saving tool. It seems that you would lose that with a system-neutral setting.

 

[C. Chapman]

I'm not sure it would work, though; it seems a lot of people are interested in getting their supplements spiced up with some new feats or whatnot. Not having that as part of the books might loose a couple of sales.

Also, not that I actually know anything about this stuff, but I would imagine that a little crunch is a pretty easy thing to fill out a sourcebook with. For example, the Stygia sourcebook has approximately (very approximately) 25 pages worth of new feats, spells, prestige classes, NPC and monster writeups etc. If these pages of crunch were taken out and supplied as a free download, and the sourcebook slimmed down from 160 to 136 pages, people would probably be bitching about the $29.95 pricetag.

It's certainly a bit of a gamble on GR's part, but a very interesting one at the very least. I'm intrigued to see how and if it works, and if it does, what impact it might have on other rpg publishers.

How easy crunch is to write depends greatly on system (certainly, writing crunch for the d20-based Iron Kindgoms was more involved and time-consuming than writing similar crunch for the likes of Talislanta). Similarly, material for crunchier systems tends to take up much more publication space by its very nature (for obvious reasons). So, "easy" is hard to define; it's generally more time-consuming to create said material, but said material tends to occupy more publication space. As to whether writing crunch or fluff is easier, that depends on the writer in question.

cheers!
Colin

 

[C. Chapman]

I don't need all of the crunch, but I do find NPC statblocks to be an invaluable time-saving tool. It seems that you would lose that with a system-neutral setting.

It depends. GR, for example, have noted that they are considering having some extremely broad guidelines/descriptors for each NPC. I'm not privy to the full details (indeed, I don't think they've been decided yet), but I imagine something like a simple scale (out of 1-10, noting only exceptionally poor or good stats/skills/traits), or maybe even a more basic tack (such as, "Ulgarth is nearly twice as strong as most men.") might be used.

cheers!
Colin

 

[Enpeze]

Ok, I said I was done, but that was before you got personal. You do realize that insulting someone's dedication to REH's vision is the worst insult possible on this list?

As far as I can remember it was YOU who did not like to play the conan RPG any more if Moongoose change the rule system. A fan of the conan world does not act in such a way. A fan of d20 does.

But of course my post was not intended to offend you. Maybe I wanted just to show you something about your own motives to play this game. If I have gone to far in this effort please take my apologize.

Fazit: Please lets end our senseless debate. I will not answer on your posts anymore and ask you politely to do the same if I am posting something.

 

[Darrin Kelley]

The adopting of a new system for a licensed product in house is a hairy subject. It brings forth all sorts of complications. Both for the company and the customers. And it certainly puts the company's reliance on its customer-base at risk.

There are like 30 books in the OGL Conan line right now. That's a lot of investment of time and money. For both the company and the customer-base. Switching to a new system nullifies significant potions of every one of those books. It would be like Mongoose would be starting Conan over from scratch.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And I don't see OGL Conan as broken. In need of a little consolidation? Absolutely! And that is what printing a second edition rulebook would be for. To consolidate the disparate mechanical elements scattered amongst multiple books into one for easy reference. The Temptress class really should be in the core book, for example. It is a pretty critical piece of the puzzle for reflecting the flavor of the setting.

But, in my opinion, OGL Conan is the one RPG on the market currently that needs the fewest changes to make it an absolutely perfectly executed game. It has suffered from further development that resulted in rules scattering. But what RPG hasn't suffered that a bit?

Mongoose hit all cylinders with OGL Conan. I believe it to be one of their best successes. And I would hate to see them throw that success away.

 

[C. Chapman]

The adopting of a new system for a licensed product in house is a hairy subject. It brings forth all sorts of complications. Both for the company and the customers. And it certainly puts the company's reliance on its customer-base at risk.

There are like 30 books in the OGL Conan line right now. That's a lot of investment of time and money. For both the company and the customer-base. Switching to a new system nullifies significant potions of every one of those books. It would be like Mongoose would be starting Conan over from scratch.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." And I don't see OGL Conan as broken. In need of a little consolidation? Absolutely! And that is what printing a second edition rulebook would be for. To consolidate the disparate mechanical elements scattered amongst multiple books into one for easy reference. The Temptress class really should be in the core book, for example. It is a pretty critical piece of the puzzle for reflecting the flavor of the setting.

But, in my opinion, OGL Conan is the one RPG on the market currently that needs the fewest changes to make it an absolutely perfectly executed game. It has suffered from further development that resulted in rules scattering. But what RPG hasn't suffered that a bit?

Mongoose hit all cylinders with OGL Conan. I believe it to be one of their best successes. And I would hate to see them throw that success away.

These are all perfectly valid personal points of view, Darrin, no question there at all. The only things I would say is, if Conan is the success you believe it to have been (and it continues to be such a success), then you have absolutely nothing to be remoteful concerned about because they obviously wouldn't "throw it away" (to use such a loaded term). Precious few publishers would ever throw away a cash cow, making such worries utterly moot (unless said publisher has a notable track record of bizarre, whimsical decisions and promise-breaking, in which case they probably don't deserve support anyway).

Now, given that Mongoose are the only folks privy to the full reality of Conan's continued success, I think it's pretty safe to say that if they did choose to go with MRQ as the sole system for a 2nd ed. Conan rpg, there'd certainly be a damn solid reason behind it. It'd certainly not be something they'd do lightly if Conan was a solid seller, after all.

Ultimately, I hope they do whatever is right for *them* as a company, and their continued survival and success, our points of view (on any side) be damned to an extent. Whether that means two Conan lines, dual-statted Conan books, no change at all, a switch to MRQ, or some iteration I haven't mentioned, I trust them to make a decision (more informed than any of us) they believe will ensure their own continued growth and success. That's the only "right thing", ultimately. Even if that meant I didn't get a MRQ-based Conan supplement in any way, shape, or form, I wouldn't be bitter or hateful, even if I was extremely disappointed. Certainly, I wouldn't effectively boycott everything they produced, because companies sometimes have to make tough decisions, can't remotely please everyone, and need to ensure their own survival and success. Reacting to any such decision as if it is a personal affront would not only be a serious over-reaction, it'd also preclude the possibility of finding and enjoying anything else they did produce that could well be really fun, or maybe even better than anything I'd played to date.

Oops, sorry, rambling in a general manner a bit there.

cheers!
Colin

 

[Strom]

Lots o' opinions from lots of members never seen on this board before who apparently play the game. If nothing else this rumor has brought some new blood to the forum. Always a good thing. 8)

 

[Enpeze]

C.Chapman - I think it's pretty safe to say that if they did choose to go with MRQ as the sole system for a 2nd ed. Conan rpg, there'd certainly be a damn solid reason behind it. It'd certainly not be something they'd do lightly if Conan was a solid seller, after all.

I also think that there is some reason behind the rumor. A lot of questions are coming up. Maybe the current game books do not sell in desired numbers anymore. Or maybe they want to win new fans which basically like conan but to whom the d20 system is just too cumbersome? Selling new conan core books with a promising rule system could be more lucrative than selling the 25th source book of an existing line.

From a financial POV the key question is: do they win enough new customers to compensate the loss of the customers which only play d20 and nothing else?

Or do they just want to have a game system which is better suited to the conan athmosphere than the current one? Maybe its not a financial issue, just one of doing the "right thing in terms of roleplaying?"

Another reason of a possible change could be that they want to establish MRQ as their own "house system" beside d20 for diversification.

Of course Moongoose will not act totally against the market. So only if the MRQ sells well then there will be a good chance that we will see a MRQ Conan line.

 

[RMS]

Maybe they'll make published supplements all fluff, and provide crunch as free downloads. This is a business model that I'm suprised hasn't happened yet.

It's just starting to happen, with Green Ronin deciding to produce the next version of Freeport as a completely crunch-free, pure setting book. S. John Ross is also doing the same with his Uresia setting, and I know a few other publishers considering this route. It'll be interesting to see if it'll take off. I've often heard gamers note, "I love X setting, but hate the system/converted it!", but such anecdotal evidence doesn't necessarily mean the model will work. I hope it does, but I guess time will tell. I imagine that if GR are successful with their approach using Freeport (one of their major "brands"), you'll see many more publishers trying that route.

cheers!
Colin

Do they supply any sort of crunch anyplace? I'd think you'd need to support two or three systems somehow because a lot of people don't want to spend time generating stack blocks for purchased adventures/settings. What I was talking about would provide the stat blocks for free via pdf, for example, while providing all the real meat of the product for purchase.

Lots of game companies did multi-stat blocks back in the early 80s, but obviously they had to be printed in the supplement. Paper was cheap back then, so it wasn't such a big deal like it is now.

 

[RMS]

Also, not that I actually know anything about this stuff, but I would imagine that a little crunch is a pretty easy thing to fill out a sourcebook with. For example, the Stygia sourcebook has approximately (very approximately) 25 pages worth of new feats, spells, prestige classes, NPC and monster writeups etc. If these pages of crunch were taken out and supplied as a free download, and the sourcebook slimmed down from 160 to 136 pages, people would probably be bitching about the $29.95 pricetag.

My initial post on this was assuming that a supplement like that would either be filled out to 160 pages of fluff or have the price reduced a bit to reflect the reduced page count. The other option, if there are two systems supported, is to add a few more pages for RQ stat blocks and then both sides get hit for the extra page count. Both groups would probably complain (especially the RQ people since stat blocks are smaller, and rules bloat has never been an issue with it) about the page count.

 

[RMS]

I don't need all of the crunch, but I do find NPC statblocks to be an invaluable time-saving tool. It seems that you would lose that with a system-neutral setting.

My idea was to provide those, but as a download. Just make them free and (in this case) support D20 Conan and the Conan version of MRQ, so you'd still get stat blocks if you wanted them but wouldn't pay for a bunch of pages of them. Since Mongoose owns both systems and has experts in both, I can't image it'd take much time or effort to put together a D20 pdf and a RQ pdf to go with each supplement.

 

[C. Chapman]

I also think that there is some reason behind the rumor. A lot of questions are coming up. Maybe the current game books do not sell in desired numbers anymore. Or maybe they want to win new fans which basically like conan but to whom the d20 system is just too cumbersome? Selling new conan core books with a promising rule system could be more lucrative than selling the 25th source book of an existing line.

It could be any number or combination of factors really. For any theoretical complete change in system to occur, I'd assume it'd have be a combination of elements, because the risk likely wouldn't be justified else.

From a financial POV the key question is: do they win enough new customers to compensate the loss of the customers which only play d20 and nothing else?

Yep, it's always a tricky question when a game updates or changes any given system.

Or do they just want to have a game system which is better suited to the conan athmosphere than the current one? Maybe its not a financial issue, just one of doing the "right thing in terms of roleplaying?"

Mmm, I'd say that's too subjective to even raise. Certainly, there's always the possibility that a given member of the company feels X or Y system is better suited (like any gamer, really), but I'd say that that should always take a backseat to other important influences on the decision. I know the hobby has a long tradition of vanity press, but if the publisher is looking at the bigger picture in terms of ensuring success, that personal feeling should be less important. Certainly, were I facing a decision to either continue a line with X system or change it to Y system, I wouldn't simply just abandon X and change it to Y (however much I personally loved Y) if X was selling well. I might consider other approaches that keep X while allowing Y as well, but I certainly wouldn't simply ditch a success for the sake of my own personal taste.

Another reason of a possible change could be that they want to establish MRQ as their own "house system" beside d20 for diversification.

Very possibly. A strong desire to establish a house system certainly might be a factor.

Of course Moongoose will not act totally against the market. So only if the MRQ sells well then there will be a good chance that we will see a MRQ Conan line.

Very true.

cheers!
Colin

 

[C. Chapman]

Do they supply any sort of crunch anyplace? I'd think you'd need to support two or three systems somehow because a lot of people don't want to spend time generating stack blocks for purchased adventures/settings. What I was talking about would provide the stat blocks for free via pdf, for example, while providing all the real meat of the product for purchase.

Lots of game companies did multi-stat blocks back in the early 80s, but obviously they had to be printed in the supplement. Paper was cheap back then, so it wasn't such a big deal like it is now.

Here's the pertinent info. from the GR frontpage:

"In June we’ll be publishing Crisis in Freeport, the final product of the original Freeport line. This adventure will resolve the succession crisis that’s gripped the city since the finale of Madness in Freeport. It will also lay the groundwork for Freeport’s re-launch later this year. Our plan is to install a new Sea Lord, advance the timeline 5 years, and provide a new baseline for Freeport adventures. In the Fall we’ll be publishing the Pirate’s Guide to Freeport. This will become the new core book for the line.

At this point you might be wondering what system the Pirate’s Guide to Freeport will be designed for. True20? d20? Mutants & Masterminds?! The answer is none of the above. The Pirate’s Guide to Freeport is a pure background book. It will not have game stats of any kind, but will instead spend all of its 256 pages detailing the people, places, politics, and perils of the City of Adventure. From the beginning Freeport has always cast a wide net. We used to say it was useable with any d20 fantasy setting. Now it will be useable with any fantasy setting and any fantasy RPG.

Does this mean that Green Ronin will not be providing rules support for Freeport? Not at all. We will be publishing a series of companion books in print and PDF format that let you use the Pirate’s Guide to Freeport with specific rule systems. The first of these, also schedule for a Fall release, is the True20 Freeport Companion. This book will give you all the info you need to use Freeport with True20 Adventure Roleplaying, including new feats, NPC and monster stats, and even an alternate magic system. Similar books will be done for other systems, including d20.

This plan will give us a core book that can remain in print for many years without tying its fate to any particular rule set. It will also allow us to broaden out Freeport’s fan base and really make the setting the focus. Eschewing game mechanics will allow us to pack as much background info as possible into the Pirate’s Guide to Freeport. Then we’re going to make as easy as possible for you to run a Freeport campaign with the game system of your choice.

A new day is rising for the City of Adventure. Please join us as we make Freeport bigger and better than ever before.

Chris Pramas
President
Green Ronin Publishing"

Plus, on their forums they mentioned discussing the inclusion of broad guidelines as to NPC stats, etc.

Still, though interesting, and tangentially related to this thread topic, it's something that needs a thread of its own, most likely in the RuneQuest forum (discussing if a MRQ rules supplement for Freeport would be produced), or General board, where the model itself can be discussed. As a result, it's the last posting on this subject I'll be making here.

cheers!
Colin

 

[hal]

I do note that though there is a parallel to GR's approach to Freeport, there are differences between the products. The main one to me seems to
be that Freeport is a d20 setting and Conan is OGL. I think GR's investment into OGL is a sign that d20 will be under more pressure than OGL as we get closer to D&D4e. OGL should be able to continue relatively untouched.

I will be interested to see what happens either way.

 

[Tim]

For me, I like Conan because of Howards world. The system is secondary. if mongoose switches to RQ from OGL, I'll give it a look and ask my players what they think, after-all its the groups style and likes that really matters.

Conan OGL is in my opinion d20 done right. Its not perfect, but its fun, and my players have enjoyed the game so far. However, I could run the game with the same kind of stories with any system, so for me system is not that important.

Would I keep buying conan suppliments if it went RQ even if I continued running OGL. Yes. There are enough rules to do most anything I want. I'm at the point now I just want more world books.

If they switch to RQ would I give it a look, well considering I have pre-ordered mine from my local store, I'd say thats a yes.

Bottom line, lets see what Mongoose does and go from there. Once the RQ books come out, a GM will be able to run Conan in RQ using the RQ rule books and the conan source books if thats what he wants come august. Core rules are all you really need, the rest is window dressing.

 

[Enpeze]

One synergetic effect if conan changes to MRQ could be the fact that Chaosiums Call of Chtulhu rule system is similar to RQ. So one can take material like monsters or spells out of their CoC books and easily convert it to MRQ Conan.

 

[Taharqa]

One synergetic effect if conan changes to MRQ could be the fact that Chaosiums Call of Chtulhu rule system is similar to RQ. So one can take material like monsters or spells out of their CoC books and easily convert it to MRQ Conan.

Aha! Now I understand. This is all just a grand conspiracy to re-unite HP Lovecraft and Robert E Howard beyond the grave!

 

[Enpeze]

One synergetic effect if conan changes to MRQ could be the fact that Chaosiums Call of Chtulhu rule system is similar to RQ. So one can take material like monsters or spells out of their CoC books and easily convert it to MRQ Conan.

Aha! Now I understand. This is all just a grand conspiracy to re-unite HP Lovecraft and Robert E Howard beyond the grave!

Yep.