RPG musings

[Sir Brad]

OK over the past few weeks I've run everything from the MPGB to date with two different groups, one was completely "By the Books", the other using my small amount of house rules.

I've noticed the following going by the books
1) Ranks come too easy, I'm sorry but it's meant to be a Heroic Epic, If the Players show up and don't mess up too badly they get a rank for adventures that aren't that long or complex, as an almost 30 year Role-playing Veteran it doesn't feel right.

2) Starting Rank, Rank 5 works as a Solo but as a group their are too many abilities floating around. perhaps in a group made up of different character types Rank 5 will work better as a starting point.

3) Armour, works but is a bit simplistic when looked at by Veteran Gamers, most of the gang I play with have 20+ years experience and are looking for something a bit different even in our "Beer & Pretzels" games, and the game those of us who have Kids are using for "Starter Games". nothing very much against Armour as a Basic Rule, but perhaps if their are ever an advanced rules set developed this may be something to be changed.

What Worked
A) Armour, on a basic level, but I prefer my House Rules

B) Task Rolls, For a "Beer & Pretzels" game work a treat, LW will never be our "Big Game" so the KISS principle of the Core Mechanics will make it popular as a Filler game we will keep coming back to.

C) Disciplines, apart from some attempts by overly cleaver players to pus the limits, Disciplines work well as a replacement for a Skill & Powers set found in most other games

"Fixes" I've made
For an All Kai Group start at Rank 3, it makes the players be more careful about Discipline selection and makes them rely on each other.

Bundling "A Merchants Task" with "Enemy Mine" as one Adventure works as a Intro Adventure, I'm lead to believe is how it was original written anyway.

If you've got a bunch of Veteran gamers and/or coming in to "Terror of the Darklords" at Rank 5 or above treat it as One adventure, for less Veteran Gamers and/or ranks less than 5 treat it as Two with after Part Three being the Advancement point also be prepared to extend Part Five.

Adopt a Damage Reduction Mechanic for Armour (I use half the EP of the Armour as it's DR).

I also use Willpower to prevent the high powered aspects of many disciplines being used out of hand like can happen with Clever Players.

 

[lightmage81]

I am currently in the RPOL game run by Zipp.

There are 3 Kai and we started off at rank 2 and have adopted some house rule. It's been a hard game so far, but Zipp has been doing a great job keeping on our toes.

I think rules lite is really meant for newcomers, it even says so in the LWMPGB. Some house rules are needed if you wish to run this for veterans.

 

[Sir Brad]

I await the new books due this month, as my LW games are starting to drop off without new content to spark our imaginations

 

[The Wolf]

I'm curious to see how Sommerlund and the Bestiary come out. I can't wait to grab a copy of Heroes either.

 

[Random Code]

I'm curious to see how Sommerlund and the Bestiary come out. I can't wait to grab a copy of Heroes either.

I think we all are... Does anyone have any news as to when Heroes is actually going to arrive?

 

[Plageman]

My concern is about the Disciplines used in replacement for skills and non-Kai characters.

From what we've seen in the Vaderish Knigh and the Cener Druid they are not as well rounded as the Kai Lord are and it may be difficult to get an inventive use of Disciplines in play.

 

[Random Code]

My concern is about the Disciplines used in replacement for skills and non-Kai characters.

From what we've seen in the Vaderish Knigh and the Cener Druid they are not as well rounded as the Kai Lord are and it may be difficult to get an inventive use of Disciplines in play.

I don't think a design goal of this game was balance and equality of power levels between the character classes. Nothing wrong with that, as it supports the books that Kai Lords were the heroes and people like border rangers, knights, etc were not as powerful. This may not suit certain game groups though.

 

[Plageman]

I don't think a design goal of this game was balance and equality of power levels between the character classes. Nothing wrong with that, as it supports the books that Kai Lords were the heroes and people like border rangers, knights, etc were not as powerful. This may not suit certain game groups though.

Except that the purpose of Heroes of Magnamund book, and I think it is also hinted in the "Murder at the Tourney" adventure, is to create a multi-class party.

And under these condition, if only one class is getting all the spotlight due to the non applicable Disciplines, it may create a split at the gaming table.

I completely understand why they did decide not to add actual skill but I still think that it make the game less interesting for experienced player unless the GM heavily house rule it.

 

[Random Code]

Except that the purpose of Heroes of Magnamund book, and I think it is also hinted in the "Murder at the Tourney" adventure, is to create a multi-class party.

A multi-class party does not automatically mean that those classes are, or in fact have to be, mechanically balanced. Granted it is the norm in most (modern) game design but it doesn't have to be the case.

... if only one class is getting all the spotlight due to the non applicable Disciplines, it may create a split at the gaming table.

It may, yes. There are other ways to redress the spotlight element though and in my experience a characters class' mechanical superiority is not the driver for monopolising the in-game spotlight. Player ability/charisma, and character background/plot hooks are far bigger pulls on it.

I completely understand why they did decide not to add actual skill but I still think that it make the game less interesting for experienced player unless the GM heavily house rule it.

I disagree, assuming that when you say "not to add actual skill" you mean not to add some kind of skill list/menchanic/resolution system. Previous threads on this topic will also support my opinion as to why that wouldn't work very well.

 

[Random Code]

To me this game is about playing Kai Lords, its a Lone Wolf Multi-Player Gamebook after all. By bringing in new classes we are being offered new options but in no way am I expecting these to form mechanically balanced characters that can all be used in the same adventuring party without creating some headaches as to balance particularly where Kai Lords are involved. And if the designers want to remain true to the source material I don't even think this would be possible as Kai Lords are the elite warriors of the greatest of people (Sommerlending) on Magnamaund so they are the best of the best. You can't expect mechanical balance in a game that hews to the source material.

If mechanical balance is important to players, and it is to many RPGers (myself included in the right kind of games), then (assuming no major changes through house ruling):

1) This new rules system isn't for those particular gamers. Go find one that is.

2) The GM would need to sit down and review the classes and make up his mind as to what combinations to allow thus addressing the game balance issue.

 

[Plageman]

If I am to pay for a printed product I expect some quality and what I got is seriously lacking in the rules department. I understand that the author wanted to keep the gamebook rules feel and stay rules light but I not happy with how this was done.

I'm waiting for Heroes to be release and see what it will bring in terms of character classes abilities. I hoped that this new edition would be more "complex" that the gamebook rules and less than the OGL but in the end its so full of holes that I'll need to house rule it to play in a campaign.

Of course I also can switch to another game system like Microlight20, MiniSix or FateRPG and just use the fluff but it would be a shame.

 

[Random Code]

If I am to pay for a printed product I expect some quality and what I got is seriously lacking in the rules department. I understand that the author wanted to keep the gamebook rules feel and stay rules light but I not happy with how this was done.

Sounds like the system isn't your cup of tea. Systems are designed with particular goals in mind and no system has ever appealed to all RPGers. It may be the case that you need to cut your losses with it and accept that it isn't for you. You have my sympathies on this one but it is a continual 'issue' with our hobby.

I'm waiting for Heroes to be release and see what it will bring in terms of character classes abilities. I hoped that this new edition would be more "complex" that the gamebook rules and less than the OGL but in the end its so full of holes that I'll need to house rule it to play in a campaign.

What you describe as holes are features in rules light games. It pretty much goes with the territory. There's nothing particularly broken in there which is what I'd call 'holes', just things aren't always defined to your comfort level. Again, it sounds like such systems aren't geared up to your needs. The beauty of rules light games is that they generally have very simple mechancis which are easy to grokk and house-rule very quickly in order to raise the layer of complexity to a preferable level.

To be fair to Mongoose I think they were quite clear in managing people's expectation on what this game was going to deliver. I never for one minute thought that the releases would be anything other than what has been done so far. Not saying that you think otherwise but just think that this is a prime example of the system not fitting the needs of some gamers which always occurs with all game systems.

 

[Plageman]

I think that you're right on one point. It isn't a classic rpg system, even a rule-light one, its simply the gamebook rules slightly modified to play in multi-player environment.

I know that if I don't like it I don't buy, but sadly there only ONE Lone Wolf RPG on the market so I have live with it. :-(

 

[Random Code]

I think that you're right on one point. It isn't a classic rpg system, even a rule-light one, its simply the gamebook rules slightly modified to play in multi-player environment.

I know that if I don't like it I don't buy, but sadly there only ONE Lone Wolf RPG on the market so I have live with it. :-(

I feel your pain.

I love the Exalted setting but the crunchy, overly complex, abortive attempt at an epic-cinematic rules system that comes in the books really does ruin it for me to the point that I wrote my own lite system.

To me it sounds as if you like the world of Magnamund and would like to run a game in it but you also value character class equality in power levels and class options. Unfortunately the Kai Lords are way out in front of most other PC options which is a setting feature not a bug and appears to be (currently) supported by the rules I've seen. If this is the case, I still think an option for you would be picking a balanced subset of the character classes that are going to be available very soon and just running a campaign with those.

Regarding the rules, if there are just a few things that you'd like to change in order to get them into a workable format then either just do it or start off a thread here - outline the problems that you're having, and ask for people to contribute in positive ways.

On the other hand, if the rules system is so far removed from your preferred type(s) of system and no reasonable amount of house rules will fix that, then I'm afraid that you're screwed and you simply have to move on and use another system. I'd recommend taking a look at Legends of Anglerre as a potential system substitute. It uses a variant of the FATE system which is now by 'go to' system of choice for most things because its (a) cool, (b) can be addapted to pretty much any genre or setting, and (c) cool! :wink: Obviously the Legends of Anglerre system is geared up to a fantasy setting so most of the work has already been done for you.

 

[Sado]

I don't think a design goal of this game was balance and equality of power levels between the character classes. Nothing wrong with that, as it supports the books that Kai Lords were the heroes and people like border rangers, knights, etc were not as powerful. This may not suit certain game groups though.

Except that the purpose of Heroes of Magnamund book, and I think it is also hinted in the "Murder at the Tourney" adventure, is to create a multi-class party.

And under these condition, if only one class is getting all the spotlight due to the non applicable Disciplines, it may create a split at the gaming table.

Think of it like Star Wars. Yes, Jedi are ultra-powerful and can easily overshadow other characters if allowed, but somehow the scruffy smuggler, scrappy princess, and even the anxious-bordering-on-neurotic robot still get their share of the spotlight.

 

[Random Code]

Think of it like Star Wars. Yes, Jedi are ultra-powerful and can easily overshadow other characters if allowed, but somehow the scruffy smuggler, scrappy princess, and even the anxious-bordering-on-neurotic robot still get their share of the spotlight.

I don't really think that's as helpful as you think it is as it all depends on if you're talking about the films in isolation or how what you've written above would be evidenced in a game system trying to simulate what happened in the films. As you've stated it, you just appear to be stating something already known but not how it can occur.

So...

Just referencing the films is pointless as films aren't RPG sessions. Depending on the system used in an RPG it could also be the case (ie, pointless) as some systems support what you stated whereas others wouldn't have any mechanical systems to promote it thus relying on the GM providing adequate spotlight time, niche protection and the player's providing PC background information that the GM could use.

 

[Plageman]

I don't think that the Kai Lord Disciplines, at pre-Magnakai level, are unballanced with those of the other classes.

My gripe is with doubling disciplines as skills. This does create IMHO a problem as all classes won't have the same "easy" access to Discipline Bonuses. I would have preferred a limited skill list an keep the Disciplines separated abilities as it would have helped having more different characters.

To go on with the Jedi analogy, in the original Star Wars D6, you had to pay dearly during character creation and progression to get your abilities making you less powerful than other players. In the D20 version uberness was just a class feature :roll:

 

[Random Code]

I don't think that the Kai Lord Disciplines, at pre-Magnakai level, are unballanced with those of the other classes.

My gripe is with doubling disciplines as skills. This does create IMHO a problem as all classes won't have the same "easy" access to Discipline Bonuses. I would have preferred a limited skill list an keep the Disciplines separated abilities as it would have helped having more different characters.

I understand that and don't necessarily disagree with you. I'd have hoped that my solutions to this would have made that kind of clear as I mentioned Kai Lords and separating other classes into a balanced group. Apologies if it wasn't as clear as I thought I was being.

Like I've said, personally I don't have a problem with how the system is panning out in this regard as I think it is supporting the setting - ie, Kai's are mechanically 'better' than most* other classes.

* Assuming there could be other classes that are as good.

To go on with the Jedi analogy, in the original Star Wars D6, you had to pay dearly during character creation and progression to get your abilities making you less powerful than other players. In the D20 version uberness was just a class feature :roll:

Which is what I stated in my above post - some systems actively support spotlight time, others balance character power, others don't bother.

As a bit of an aside, the new LW system is very much like a classic RPG system in the fact that it doesn't look like its going to really concern itself with balance between classes. Remember that character balance is a particularly modern concept in the design of RPGs. Especially as a preferred design goal. Many older games don't even consider it.

 

[The Wolf]

As a bit of an aside, the new LW system is very much like a classic RPG system in the fact that it doesn't look like its going to really concern itself with balance between classes. Remember that character balance is a particularly modern concept in the design of RPGs. Especially as a preferred design goal. Many older games don't even consider it.

So true, so very true. Well said. I also second the recommend for Legends of Anglerre, since the LW system is unlikely to change and become more complex. It is basically a multiplayer version of the gamebooks written by Matthew Sprange and Joe Dever.

So if anyone is looking for more complexity, it isn't going to be in the new Lone Wolf RPG I don't think. (stranger things have happened though)

 

[Sado]

Think of it like Star Wars. Yes, Jedi are ultra-powerful and can easily overshadow other characters if allowed, but somehow the scruffy smuggler, scrappy princess, and even the anxious-bordering-on-neurotic robot still get their share of the spotlight.

I don't really think that's as helpful as you think it is as it all depends on if you're talking about the films in isolation or how what you've written above would be evidenced in a game system trying to simulate what happened in the films.

I was actually thinking of the WEG D6 Star Wars RPG when I posted that. My experiences and impressions are not the same as Plageman's, I did not find Jedi to be less capable than their non-force using counterparts.