rolling parry and dodge - one quandary

[Plane Sailing]

I've just run my first Conan scenario (shamelessly ripping off Iron Chefs introductory adventure with the Yoggites) and it was great fun.

I made an executive decision to roll Parry and Dodge against the attack rolls, and it made for an excellent feel for the combat - sometimes a hero would only roll 7 on his attack but the Yoggite he was facing came up with an abysmal 3 for his defence and still got pasted!

When it came to critical hits - I played it that a 20 was an automatic hit but the parry/dodge roll was made against the critical confirmation roll which seemed to work OK. (crit threats on a 19 could be defeated by someone parrying high enough to beat the total attack roll, otherwise the defensive roll was applied against the confirmation check as before)

The only thing that didn't feel right was flatfooted, when I got people to roll a flat d20 with no mods (representing the DV10 of flatfooted) and this bit didn't really feel right... but nor did "make a roll against DV10" either.

I wonder if there is anyone here who had playtested it while parry and dodge rolls were still in the system remembers how this was handled? Or if there is anyone else who is actually using parry/dodge rolls and have a particular way they resolve this issue?

Cheers

 

[jcw8705]

I utilize the dodge/parry roll vs the attack roll. I think it adds something to the game, as well as a bit of uncertainty (Parrying this round hmm...unfortunately they are using a brilliant energy weapon and it can't be parried...bad decision, try dodging next time).

As it is, the rules certainly make getting caught flat-footed dangerous, and it is in everyone's best interest to be the one catching someone flat-footed and not yourself being caught flat-footed. I've seen a sparked interest in higher dexterity's, taking of the Improved Initiative feat, and any other feat or ability which enhances initiative. Especially when combined with the massive damage rules, sneak attacks, etc.

While I do enjoy this aspect of it, there is a certain level of TPK that can arise from it. If you are wanting to run a watered down version of Conan where characters live long and prosper, then I would suggest emphasizing characters either take Reflexive Parry (or provide it as a special GM incentive bonus to draw PC's more in the direction you want to run the game). Additionally, you might consider making a Reflexive Dodge feat (same as Reflexive Parry but for Dodge instead).

John

 

[Mongoose Bob]

The only thing that didn't feel right was flatfooted, when I got people to roll a flat d20 with no mods (representing the DV10 of flatfooted) and this bit didn't really feel right... but nor did "make a roll against DV10" either.

I wonder if there is anyone here who had playtested it while parry and dodge rolls were still in the system remembers how this was handled? Or if there is anyone else who is actually using parry/dodge rolls and have a particular way they resolve this issue?

Not really played with this version, so cannot say for sure but how about not letting them roll. :twisted:

It woudl certainly encourage players not to be flatfooted and encourage them to get it at ever opportunity.

 

[zero skill LPB]

Cool! I've been wanting to hear of folks attempting this before I attempt it myself. More feedback, please!

Me, I plan on the Attack Value roll vs. the Defense Value roll as well as using 3d6 (as opposed to 1d20).

Mmm, bell curves.

 

[Hyena]

So you people are rolling both attack and defense ? Mmm... the increased variance of the results is going to make you PCs' lives interesting. Short, but interesting.

Me, I've stopped rolling any attacks in my d20 games for a year now and I'm not going back. I make players roll their defense against DV 12 + Opponent's attack bonuses. I can tell you I enjoy the break and faster combat.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Not really played with this version, so cannot say for sure but how about not letting them roll. :twisted:

I've actually seriously considered this as an option!

I'm sorta trying to get a mental picture of what flatfooted really represents, what would be happening if I see it on the cinema screen for instance.

In theory attacking a medium sized inanimate object would still be DC5 (medium sized, 0 Dex) and not letting a defender roll would be like making them easier to hit than a statue... not quite right somehow! I'm assuming that the mechanics of combat will simulate the opportunity for someone to miss because of stress and excitement which they wouldn't face if they were just swinging at a practice dummy.

Perhaps I could try out a slight variation on my standard combat rules in that all attacks must at least hit DC5 in order to require a parry/dodge (and then DC5 becomes the flat score to overcome when catching someone flatfooted).

The other alternative is to simply make flatfooted attacks against DC10 (which might work out slightly better for the low level defender in some cases, because his low parry/dodge might mean that in actual combat he dodges the wrong way and leaves himself wide open.)

As you can see, I'm still not certain about how to handle this flat-footed situation!

If I do go with "no roll at all" I'd probably reserve flat-footed for surprise situations where an attack comes out of nowhere and otherwise ditch flat-footed on the first true round of combat. To stop that nerfing pirates and thieves too badly they would get a free feint attempt on the first round of combat to land a sneak attack (using normal feint rules of bluff vs sense motive+BAB)

Cheers

 

[Plane Sailing]

Cool! I've been wanting to hear of folks attempting this before I attempt it myself. More feedback, please!

Me, I plan on the Attack Value roll vs. the Defense Value roll as well as using 3d6 (as opposed to 1d20).
.

I'd never use 3d6 for that kind of roll... too much work and the sliding effectiveness of bonuses is tricky to evaluate too.

The two combats we have used so far have gone very well indeed. The players both felt it gave a greater sense of immediacy and participation in the combat; normal D&D combat seemed very passive in comparison. it was also nice that low rolls could still hit and high rolls could still be countered.

I remember the DMG has the mantra "more randomness is bad for the PCs" but frankly we don't really care, nobody has died yet (although one PC got into -ve hit points twice the first one didn't really count as it was because he took a lashing for one of his friends who had cheeked a superior officer ). We are veterans of the old Runequest game where everyone rolled for their attacks and their parries and nobody ever said "Damn this is too random for me to survive" We just played and fought within that paradigm.

I ought to also mention that it didn't seem to appreciably lengthen the duration of the combat, although it did increase the feel of there being a contest between the attacker and the defender.

It was all good for us so far.

Cheers

 

[GhostWolf69]

So you people are rolling both attack and defense ? Mmm... the increased variance of the results is going to make you PCs' lives interesting. Short, but interesting.

Me, I've stopped rolling any attacks in my d20 games for a year now and I'm not going back. I make players roll their defense against DV 12 + Opponent's attack bonuses. I can tell you I enjoy the break and faster combat.

The cool thing about rolling defence is that the player takes an active part of the fight even when it is not his/her turn to act. And rolling a die against SOMEONE is always more fun than rolling it against a table or value. It gives a sense of competition that the roll against straight DC lacks.

I love it.

And yes for flat-footed I just give them DV10. No roll. In some cases this will be better than if they rolled really bad during the round, but hey? If they step infront of the enemy sword instead of away from it that is not so strange, is it? If they are flat-footed they do not step at all.

/wolf

 

[Hyena]

And rolling a die against SOMEONE is always more fun than rolling it against a table or value. It gives a sense of competition that the roll against straight DC lacks.

I love it.

/wolf

I see. It's a morality issue isn't it ? You want to crush your players in a fair fight while I'd rather have them toiling and slaving their miserable lives away. Ah well, wolves are known to be tender-hearted, anyway.