Review on the Stygia sourcebook ?

[Kyorou]

I'm also very satisfied with it. Lots of useful stuff. I only deplore the lack of maps and the reprints from Hyboria's.

 

[kintire]

So in a way you could take it as a myth in which it is Set who is victorious. If Set is totally victorious then theoretically at least there is no Horus unless Isis finds the pieces of Osiris and mates with him. (I think)

Either that, or we're still in the middle of the myth! But its probably better to view the myth as a memory of the eventual overthrow of Set and his priesthood, and the whole "Set usurpation" thing as an addition to make Horus look more righteous.

The awkward part about trying to fit Stygia too closely to real Egyptian myth is that Howard got his deity names confused. The evil snake demon in Egyptian muth is Apep, not Set. Set has no connection with snakes, except that he defends Ras barge from Apep's attacks! So you have to at least postulate that someone at some point did some name swapping to hide the fact that the arch demon was once the top god.

Send me a PM with your email address and I can send it to you.

thanks!

 

[Aholibamah]

I think Howard was also frankly just using names and flavours of old cults and religions--his main aim was telling an entertaining story, not trying to achieve historical accuracy. For instance Ishtar is described as "He" in at least one of his stories.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Which story?

 

[VincentDarlage]

The awkward part about trying to fit Stygia too closely to real Egyptian myth is that Howard got his deity names confused. The evil snake demon in Egyptian muth is Apep, not Set. Set has no connection with snakes, except that he defends Ras barge from Apep's attacks!

I am not so sure about that. Check out this from http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/eml/eml31.htm

The Great Father god of the Hittites is Pappas or Attis ("father"), who was best known to the Egyptians as Sutekh.

Sutekh was a sky and atmosphere deity who caused the storms and sent thunder. He was a god of war, and wore goat's horns to symbolize fertility and the male principle.

In the latest phase of Hittite religion the Great Father, the conquering war god of the Alpine people, predominated, and he absorbed the attributes of other deities in localities where Hittite influence became supreme.

The Hittite deities were associated with mountains and mysterious caves...

In addition to the deities there were fearsome demons. The Hittite Typhoon, like the Egyptian Set and Apep serpent, warred against the gods. He was half-human and half-reptile--the upper part of his body was that of a man and the lower that of a serpent. He lived in a cave which was connected by an underground passage with the cave of the gods. Tempests issued from his jaws and lightning flashed from his terrible flaming eyes.

Egypt also had its somewhat colourless dragon legend, which was probably imported. In one of the Horus stories, Set became a "roaring serpent", and in this form he concealed himself in a hole (a cave) which, by command of the ubiquitous Ra, he was not permitted to leave. He thus became identified with the Apep serpent. Sutekh, the later Set, who was regarded in the Delta as the true sun god, displaced Ra and Horus and figured as the "dragon slayer". The earlier Set was not originally a demon. He was, it would appear, the god of a foreign people who entered Egypt in pre-Dynastic times and were ultimately associated with all that was evil and impure, like the later Hyksos who worshipped Sutekh.

 

[kintire]

Its an interesting read, if nothing else because it may well be where Howard got his ideas from! It seems to sharply disagree with modern scholarship though.

Despite the role he was given in the death of Osiris, Set was considered to be the defender of the sun god Ra. he protected the solar barque on its journey through the underworld (or the night sky) and fought the serpent Apep.

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/set.html

Also, I see no survival of the idea that "Set" and "Sutekh" were different deities, or that Set is a foreign deity in origin. He's one of Egypt's most ancient. Nor was he a symbol of fertility: he had no offspring despite many wives, and in some versions was castrated by Horus during their battle.

As for his association with Apep, I've found one though its a bit tenuous. Apparently the Greeks identified him with Typhon, who was also associated with Apep. I don't think the Egyptians ever did though. He had a blip during the aftermath of the Hyksos period because they had taken him as a patron, but he was back in favour by the 19th Dynasty. The second Pharaoh was named after him (Seti) and the third, Ramesses II, named one of the four divisions of his army at Qadesh after him.

Something else I find interesting: Set was apparently supposed to be a warlike pale skinned red haired man. He fits well as a deification of the Vanir who overthrew Set worship during the migration era of the Hyborian age. Maybe they just reused the old name?

 

[Baduin]

Set isn't a foreign deity. He is an Egyptian deity of foreigners - that is, his "portfolio" includes desert, sterility, desert caravans, color red, red-headed people, foreigners, foreign trade and all things foreign. His animal isn't serpent but unidentified "Set animal" - perhaps aardvark.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/set.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_(mythology)

 

[Krushnak]

In one of the Horus stories, Set became a "roaring serpent", and in this form he concealed himself in a hole (a cave) which, by command of the ubiquitous Ra, he was not permitted to leave.

change Ra with Mitra(and/or Epimetrius) and that makes a pretty interesting little tid bit to include in a game. perhaps the characters are assigned a mission to stop a specific sorceror or faction of the cult of Set from being able to release him from his prison, or maybe they unwittingly break the seal and have to close it before all hell breaks loose.

 

[VincentDarlage]

When I was actively researching the Eqyptian culture, it was readily apparent that the myths and gods did not just spring into being and remain the same from pre-Dynastic times to Roman times - they changed, were modified, and became very different in some cases, absorbing this god, becoming identified with that god, etc.

The classic definitions of Set and the others took a long time to evolve, taking all of them on some strange paths. Myths didn't even retain a concrete form from one city to the next even in the same Dynasty.

Neither of the resources mentioned by Baduin would be considered scholarly sources. Most of the scholarly works I consulted (typically found in actual libraries, not on the internet) show incredible changes in the deities throughout the Dynasties and from region to region. Many of the online references simply discuss the final forms the gods took.

While right at this second I cannot defend this one way or the other, but have you considered that he is a god of foreigners perhaps because, at one time, he was worshipped by foreigners as the supreme god? As the Dynasties moved on, and this became forgotten, and he became established, he changed.

The Egyptian pantheon was extremely fluid. I was rather surprised to discover this way back then. It was constantly being modified to fit the needs of the Dynasty of the time.

To concretely say anything about the Egyptian pantheon requires a date, such as "As of the XII Dynasty, Set was defined as..." To simply give a definition and suppose it held true from pre-Dynastic times to the Roman era does not give an accurate picture.

Even your wikipedia entry includes these changes, such as the line, "...and so he gradually absorbed the identities of all the previous evil gods, particularly Apep." (Wikipedia: Set).

 

[blackenedwings]

I'm running out the door so I don't have time to write a complete review, but I loved the Stygia book. A large portion of my campaign is going to be in/around Stygia and the book is invaluable for both the setting and the personality of the people there. I did find it rather amusing that the Stygia book is way darker and more twisted than the Shadizar - City of Wickedness boxed set. Shadizar is more of a typical decadent society with recognizable evils, while Stygia is a bit more... exotic. Having run an evil campaign in a desert setting a couple of years ago with the WoTC Book of Vile Darkness book, I was curious to see what elements of darkness/evil would be brought to live in the Stygia sourcebook. I forget the exact name of the item, but the black magic candles in the magic items section made even me do a double take. I was like "wait, what do you have to do to make them?!" Great flavor!

 

[kintire]

Most of the scholarly works I consulted (typically found in actual libraries, not on the internet) show incredible changes in the deities throughout the Dynasties and from region to region.

Indeed, Egyptology is one of the areas that really hasn't made it to the net much.

To concretely say anything about the Egyptian pantheon requires a date, such as "As of the XII Dynasty, Set was defined as..." To simply give a definition and suppose it held true from pre-Dynastic times to the Roman era does not give an accurate picture.

Indeed, its a fascinating picture. The rise and "fall" of Ra alone is fascinating, never mind the creation myths (of which there were at least three). And most of the gods went through the same process.

but have you considered that he is a god of foreigners perhaps because, at one time, he was worshipped by foreigners as the supreme god? As the Dynasties moved on, and this became forgotten, and he became established, he changed.

Its possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it. He is a very early deity, one of the earliest known. I believe the current belief is that he was the patron deity of Lower Egypt as Horus was of the upper. As upper and lower Egypt united into the first dynasty it was an upper Egyptian dynasty that did so, so Horus got to be superior. But its far more complex than that: several early Pharoahs have Set names instead of Horus names, and one (Khaesekhemwy) apparently claimed to be an incarnation of both. As if that wasn't enough, later once Osiris appeared to complicate things, Horus was split into two deities: Horus the elder who was a peer and sometime ally of Set, and Horus the younger an adversary.

I think that explains the ambivalent view of Set. he was the patron of the dynasty that came second in the power struggle, but not so far second that they could afford to ignore him. And then he was adopted as a patron by the Hyksos, which further complicated things once they were kicked out. Still, I don't recall any connection with snakes in the Egyptian period. hat seems to be very late, and Greek.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I'm running out the door so I don't have time to write a complete review, but I loved the Stygia book. A large portion of my campaign is going to be in/around Stygia and the book is invaluable for both the setting and the personality of the people there. I did find it rather amusing that the Stygia book is way darker and more twisted than the Shadizar - City of Wickedness boxed set. Shadizar is more of a typical decadent society with recognizable evils, while Stygia is a bit more... exotic. Having run an evil campaign in a desert setting a couple of years ago with the WoTC Book of Vile Darkness book, I was curious to see what elements of darkness/evil would be brought to live in the Stygia sourcebook. I forget the exact name of the item, but the black magic candles in the magic items section made even me do a double take. I was like "wait, what do you have to do to make them?!" Great flavor!

Thank you. The difference probably stems from Howard's great atmosphere around Stygia versus the almost non-existant atmosphere extant in the references to Shadizar. That left me with a sort of "Sodom & Gomorrah" feeling for Shadizar, but something more mystical for Stygia.

Zamora, to me, seems to glorify the seven deadly sins, and Stygia seems to glorify sinister power.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Its possible, but I'm inclined to doubt it. .... And then he was adopted as a patron by the Hyksos, which further complicated things once they were kicked out.

That is what I meant when I said he was worshipped as a primary god by foreigners at some point.

 

[VincentDarlage]

He had no offspring despite many wives...

Several of the myths I read in my research gave him offspring. Sometimes that offspring was later given to other gods, but at certain times in Eqyptian history he was given offspring. Sobek, for example, in some texts is the son of Set and Neith. Upuat, in a text I have here, is described as the son of Set and Amtcheret. In at least one myth, I have read that Anubis was the son of Set and Nepthys (although he is usually attributed to be the son of Osiris and Nepthys in most of the myths I have come across).

Again, statements like that need a date of some kind.

 

[kintire]

Zamora, to me, seems to glorify the seven deadly sins, and Stygia seems to glorify sinister power.

Off topic, of course, but I've been meaning to ask about that. I can't help noyicing that the two city sets seem to have Deadly Sin themes. Shadizar (Lust) followed by Messantia (Avarice). Was that deliberate?

Upuat, in a text I have here, is described as the son of Set and Amtcheret. In at least one myth, I have read that Anubis was the son of Set and Nepthys (although he is usually attributed to be the son of Osiris and Nepthys in most of the myths I have come across).

Again, statements like that need a date of some kind.

Well, there you go. Just when I think I've found a consistent theme...

Anyway, be that as it may, he isn't evil or a snake until late and very late respectively (and rehabilitated in the first case), and his pale skin and red hair would have made him a perfect fit for a deity of the conquering Vanir. Oh well!

In any case, you did a good job of fitting him in as chief god. I was skeptical when I saw what you were doing, I admit, but it all comes out as a coherent and plausible system at the end.

Some might say you did better than the Egyptians did!

 

[VincentDarlage]

Off topic, of course, but I've been meaning to ask about that. I can't help noyicing that the two city sets seem to have Deadly Sin themes. Shadizar (Lust) followed by Messantia (Avarice). Was that deliberate?

No. I didn't even know Messantia was being written until it was announced. Complete coincidence.

In any case, you did a good job of fitting him in as chief god. I was skeptical when I saw what you were doing, I admit, but it all comes out as a coherent and plausible system at the end.

Some might say you did better than the Egyptians did!

Thank you!

 

[blackenedwings]

I'm running out the door so I don't have time to write a complete review, but I loved the Stygia book. A large portion of my campaign is going to be in/around Stygia and the book is invaluable for both the setting and the personality of the people there. I did find it rather amusing that the Stygia book is way darker and more twisted than the Shadizar - City of Wickedness boxed set. Shadizar is more of a typical decadent society with recognizable evils, while Stygia is a bit more... exotic. Having run an evil campaign in a desert setting a couple of years ago with the WoTC Book of Vile Darkness book, I was curious to see what elements of darkness/evil would be brought to live in the Stygia sourcebook. I forget the exact name of the item, but the black magic candles in the magic items section made even me do a double take. I was like "wait, what do you have to do to make them?!" Great flavor!

Thank you. The difference probably stems from Howard's great atmosphere around Stygia versus the almost non-existant atmosphere extant in the references to Shadizar. That left me with a sort of "Sodom & Gomorrah" feeling for Shadizar, but something more mystical for Stygia.

Zamora, to me, seems to glorify the seven deadly sins, and Stygia seems to glorify sinister power.

Yeah, what is great is that I get to utilize both of the areas and the different attitudes in my game, so I can change up and keep the characters feeling out of their depth and surrounded by corruption. I am consistantly surprised by the quality of the Conan books, I haven't found a bad one, and Vincent, I have to say it is awesome having you available as a resource on the board to clear things up.

 

[Damien]

I so need to get this book.

I'm terribly behind, really. I've been wanting to do a slew of Conan material reviews, but Gaming Report keeps me busy with metric tonnes of other stuff. I do have an Argos & Zingara review almost finished. Hopefully I can buy Stygia when I get back from Florida, and get a review of it on Gaming Report sometime before the summer ends, haha.

Can't wait to read it, though. Damn my slim bank account.

 

[Etepete]

Off topic, of course, but I've been meaning to ask about that. I can't help noyicing that the two city sets seem to have Deadly Sin themes. Shadizar (Lust) followed by Messantia (Avarice). Was that deliberate?

Even if it isn't it's an interesting take: a tour of hyboria based on the seven deadly sins. Tarantia would be pride, I suppose, and Kordova could pass for Envy. Gluttony and sloth would be difficult. The same to wrath.

 

[Kyorou]

Even if it isn't it's an interesting take: a tour of hyboria based on the seven deadly sins. Tarantia would be pride, I suppose, and Kordova could pass for Envy. Gluttony and sloth would be difficult. The same to wrath.

Gluttony=Aghrapur
Wrath=Venarium ?
Sloth=Khemi ?