Regarding DD+## Damage

[Stargrove]

It says turret, not turret x2. The x2 is after the installed weapons.
The design sheet for the Archangel is one turret, and that is why the spreadsheet reported the damage as a linked system... because it IS a linked system in a single turret. The spreadsheet would put Turret x2 and damage as 3DD if it were REALLY 2 turrets. (try it in the spreadsheet and you will see that. Edit: Actually, see below. I did it for you.)
My earlier statement on the pilot and gunner being able to pick a gun was incorrect, because I too was looking at the image... but the art is not reflective of the single turret as it was designated in the vehicle design spreadsheet for that vehicle.

Is there a spreadsheet somewhere with the Archangel already built out?

I see what you showed in the attached image as "Turret x2 (Pulse Laser Gun (heavy) [F6], dorsal, improved fire control)" and still interpret is as being two turrets with each with one Pulse Laser Gun.

If I do this:


This is the result:


The first entry is what the book shows for the Archangel (makes more sense now) and the second entry is what you showed as an example which I interpreted correctly as two turrets.

 

[Arkathan]

Is there a spreadsheet somewhere with the Archangel already built out?

I see what you showed in the attached image as "Turret x2 (Pulse Laser Gun (heavy) [F6], dorsal, improved fire control)" and still interpret is as being two turrets with each with one Pulse Laser Gun.

If I do this:
View attachment 7761

This is the result:
View attachment 7762

The first entry is what the book shows for the Archangel (makes more sense now) and the second entry is what you showed as an example which I interpreted correctly as two turrets.

Right. I was showing you what two turrets looks like.
Glad that helped.

 

[Geir]

Let me step into a cow patty (meadow muffin?) of probably my own making. The idea for 3DD+30 is to match what a double turret with 3D weapons would do in a spacecraft situation. So if we reverse the x10 multiplier of a spacecraft double turret with weapons doing 3D spacecraft damage (3D +3), we should get the 3D multiplied by 10 and the +3 would become +30.

As for linked weapons, maybe that could have been articulated better. The theory at least, is you have, say 6 machineguns mounted forward, then if they are part of one forward mount with six weapons (Fixed Mount: Forward, Machinegun x6), they would be considered linked and fired as one.

If they were treated as six separate mounts, (Fixed Mount x 6: Forward, Machinegun) they could be rolled for individually, but even though vehicle crew requirements are vague, good luck getting the pilot to fire at six different targets by using six different triggers (though this could just be my 20th entry brain thinking: If they were all firing smart bullets of sufficient TL, they could probably respond to the pilot's command or their own little brains with hunter/killer tactics skill to agree upon which one would fire at which target - then we're getting into microrobots (different book... maybe I should so some future JTAS article on smart bullet tactics for bullets with brains (and fins or rockets, and comms - should be able to pull that off at TL11+))

 

[andrewza]

I'm afraid that you don't understand probability.

This is not a probability issue. Destructive dice multiply the damage felt by 10. This makes the extra damage from effect or multiple guns far deadly.

Average role from 2d6 is 7 with a plus 2 bonus from characteristic and skill means average attack roll is 9. Or plus 1 effect

With a 10D damge roll that plus 1 effect is one extra damage

With 1DD damge roll that plus 1 effect is 10 damge.

This makes the low end damge of the 1DD higher.

If the attack roll has a effect of 6 it means the lowest 1DD can get is 70 and the highest 10D can get is 66.

Not sure why probability matters here

 

[Arkathan]

Not sure why probability matters here

The chance of 1DD rolling minimum damage is one in six.
The chance of 1DD rolling 2 or less, for 20 Damage or less is two in six.

The odds of 10D6 rolling 20 or less is roughly 1 in 346.

This is why probability matters.
Edit: Plus, who wants to wait on... THAT GUY... to add up 10D6?

 

[andrewza]

Let me step into a cow patty (meadow muffin?) of probably my own making. The idea for 3DD+30 is to match what a double turret with 3D weapons would do in a spacecraft situation. So if we reverse the x10 multiplier of a spacecraft double turret with weapons doing 3D spacecraft damage (3D +3), we should get the 3D multiplied by 10 and the +3 would become +30.

As for linked weapons, maybe that could have been articulated better. The theory at least, is you have, say 6 machineguns mounted forward, then if they are part of one forward mount with six weapons (Fixed Mount: Forward, Machinegun x6), they would be considered linked and fired as one.

If they were treated as six separate mounts, (Fixed Mount x 6: Forward, Machinegun) they could be rolled for individually, but even though vehicle crew requirements are vague, good luck getting the pilot to fire at six different targets by using six different triggers (though this could just be my 20th entry brain thinking: If they were all firing smart bullets of sufficient TL, they could probably respond to the pilot's command or their own little brains with hunter/killer tactics skill to agree upon which one would fire at which target - then we're getting into microrobots (different book... maybe I should so some future JTAS article on smart bullet tactics for bullets with brains (and fins or rockets, and comms - should be able to pull that off at TL11+))

So the issue is see with 3DD+30 is that on dice roll of say 10 from 3 d6 you ad the plus 30 to get a damge roll of 40 since destructive weapons multiple the damge rolled not the dice rolled.

That's 400 damge. In space craft scale that's 40 damge. The archangels is now a better fighter than space fighter. Why not mount those guns on to space fighters since in any case dog fight rules limit space fighters combat to 1km to 10km

The chance of 1DD rolling minimum damage is one in six.
The chance of 1DD rolling 2 or less, for 20 Damage or less is two in six.

The odds of 10D6 rolling 20 or less is roughly 1 in 346.

This is why probability matters.
Edit: Plus, who wants to wait on... THAT GUY... to add up 10D6?

I was not talking about probability. I was talking about max damge potential vs minimum damge potential. I was pointing out how with 1DD it does not take long to out damge 10D no matter if the guy what the 1DD dice rolled

I mean warhammer players have to wait for the ork players bucket roll
But I am not even arguing in favour of 10D. I have had a ply role a rotary auto cannon on full auto. Even on a VTT where dice counting is faster it was still a pain. I was just pointing out that since destructive dice multiply the damge rolled and not the dice rolled that 1DD is a lot more deadly than 10D

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Looking at the Archangel Heavy Skyfighter (VHB2026) and the weapons is listed as 3DD+30, which, unlike the old VHB it does not state the bonus was already factored in (it probably was). So, it probably should be 3DD+3. My questions though is why? Each of the turrets it has are just one weapon and it says nothing about them being linked.

It's obviously supposed to be two weapons, doing 3D×10 + 30 damage together.

Some author didn't remember all the rules in all the books that particular day, big deal...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So the issue is see with 3DD+30 is that on dice roll of say 10 from 3 d6 you ad the plus 30 to get a damge roll of 40 since destructive weapons multiple the damge rolled not the dice rolled.

But that is not how it works. You are definitely not getting the ×10 on the Effect or other mods.

Just think of it as 10D simplified to 1D×10, and it all makes sense. See CSC'23, p178-179.

 

[andrewza]

But that is not how it works. You are definitely not getting the ×10 on the Effect or other mods.

Just think of it as 10D simplified to 1D×10, and it all makes sense. See CSC'23, p178-179.

Page 77 of core rule book

Upon a successful attack, damage is rolled for, with the Effect of the attack roll added to the total.

The damge of effect is added to the roll
Page 78 core rule book

A Destructive weapon multiplies the total rolled for Damage by 10.

You multiply the damge rolled. Why would that not include the effect since that is added as you roll

It does not multiply the damge dice rolled it says the total rolled for damge. That is everything rolled for damge.

The way other people want to do it makes burst meaning less since it adds a rounding error to the damge makes actually rolling a good hit meaning less since a plus 0 or plus 6 adds nothing nothing

Since we now have rules for space craft scale weapons on ground vechiles do you all so add just plus one damge per effect when a star ship weapons that fire on ground targets

 

[Arkathan]

So the issue is see with 3DD+30 is that on dice roll of say 10 from 3 d6 you ad the plus 30 to get a damge roll of 40 since destructive weapons multiple the damge rolled not the dice rolled.

That's 400 damge. In space craft scale that's 40 damge.

No. Just. No.
A roll of ten is 100 damage + 30 damage for the second weapon. The 30 has already been multiplied by 10. In an effort to avoid confusion. In a space weapon, it might be written 3D+3. For vehicles, better to think of it as (3D x10) + 30

 

[andrewza]

No. Just. No.
A roll of ten is 100 damage + 30 damage for the second weapon. The 30 has already been multiplied by 10. In an effort to avoid confusion. In a space weapon, it might be written 3D+3. For vehicles, better to think of it as (3D x10) + 30

So the 30 all ready has the x10 multiplier added.

So if I make a dual turret with destructive weapon on the new spread sheet will it out put it as 3DD+30

 

[Arkathan]

So the 30 all ready has the x10 multiplier added.

So if I make a dual turret with destructive weapon on the new spread sheet will it out put it as 3DD+30

Yes. Scroll up to post 21 for a snippet of the spreadsheet 's output.

 

[andrewza]

Yes. Scroll up to post 21 for a snippet of the spreadsheet 's output.

O I dont know how I missed that. Thanks

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Page 78 core rule book

A Destructive weapon multiplies the total rolled for Damage by 10.

You multiply the damge rolled. Why would that not include the effect since that is added as you roll

It does not multiply the damge dice rolled it says the total rolled for damge. That is everything rolled for damge.

You quoted it yourself: Its the roll that is multiplied, not total damage.

1DD is just 10D: Would a 10D weapon multiply added mods by 10? If not, then 1DD will not either.

 

[andrewza]

You quoted it yourself: Its the roll that is multiplied, not total damage.

1DD is just 10D: Would a 10D weapon multiply added mods by 10? If not, then 1DD will not either.

Yes and you add the effect to the roll.

You multiply the total number.

Or do space craft scale weapons suddenly get weaker when fired from ground vechiles.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You multiply the total number.

No, you multiply the roll.

Take a 9D weapon, use a special ammunition that grants +1D; it becomes a 10D simplified to 1DD attack.
Why would the weapon suddenly multiply the Effect and other mods by 10?

Or do space craft scale weapons suddenly get weaker when fired from ground vechiles.

Spacecraft Scale weapons are Spacecraft Scale weapons whether mounted on a vehicle or spacecraft.

 

[andrewza]

Spacecraft Scale weapons are Spacecraft Scale weapons whether mounted on a vehicle or spacecraft.

And they multiply the damge effect included by 10 correct

The new VHB has space craft weapon on vechiles. Do these now no longer multiple the total damge by 10

No, you multiply the roll.

It does not say multiple the roll it says multiply the total rolled for damge.

As in the total rolled for damge

The effect is added to the roll for damge


There for the total rolled for damge includes the effect

Take a 9D weapon, use a special ammunition that grants +1D; it becomes a 10D simplified to 1DD attack.
Why would the weapon suddenly multiply the Effect and other mods by 10?

Because you multiply the total rolled for damage

Not to mention when you use HEAP ammo on a destructive weapon, you add another destructive device, turning a 1DD into a 2DD. So clearly there is no fear of doing lots of damage with the HEAP ammo option



A beam laser in space is 1d and you add effect so a damge roll of 3 and attack roll of 9 gets 4 damge
That is 40 ground scale

When the beam laser is mounted on a vehicle it now a 1DD weapon
Why would the damge all of a sudden change to 31

 

[Fweeba]

I think it's pretty common in TTRPG language to interpret 'The total rolled' for something as including modifiers to that thing, so the idea that it's super clear just isn't the case. I've seen this question come up independently at several different tables, so it's definitely ambiguous in practice.

For example, if somebody says "The total roll of your Athletics check must exceed 12 to pass", to me that sounds like they clearly mean "The result of the dice you roll and the modifiers to those dice must exceed 12 to pass".

Similarly, if somebody says "Subtract the target's protection from your total damage roll", they mean "Subtract protection from the total damage your attack deals", not "Subtract protection from only the roll specifically, but leave modifiers untouched".

It also puts a lot of weight onto very specific verbiage to implicitly describe a sort of, weird behavior that isn't duplicated anywhere else in the system, to my knowledge. If the intent was 'Multiply only the dice, not any modifiers', that really should be explicitly stated.

Like, "A Destructive weapon multiplies the roll of its damage dice by 10, before modifiers". Something like that'd be far clearer.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It also puts a lot of weight onto very specific verbiage to implicitly describe a sort of, weird behavior that isn't duplicated anywhere else in the system, to my knowledge. If the intent was 'Multiply only the dice, not any modifiers', that really should be explicitly stated.

Like, "A Destructive weapon multiplies the roll of its damage dice by 10, before modifiers". Something like that'd be far clearer.

I absolutely agree, but Mongoose doesn't really do exact...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Not to mention when you use HEAP ammo on a destructive weapon, you add another destructive device, turning a 1DD into a 2DD. So clearly there is no fear of doing lots of damage with the HEAP ammo option

No; CSC, p178:

HEAP adds 1D, not 1DD.

A beam laser in space is 1d and you add effect so a damge roll of 3 and attack roll of 9 gets 4 damge
That is 40 ground scale

When the beam laser is mounted on a vehicle it now a 1DD weapon
Why would the damge all of a sudden change to 31

A Spacecraft weapon on a vehicle is still a spacecraft weapon and uses the Spacecraft Scale rules.