really really big elephants

[Deleriad]

As a side project I've been trying to figure out whether it's possible to draw up a SIZ equivalence chart that is relatively easy to remember in terms of round numbers. I know there's the RQ3 one and others have been suggested but I wanted to see if there was some way to simplify. One thought that occurred to me was to use monster SIZ stats from RQ Monsters as benchmarks. I thought I would use the Brontosaurus as the end point. Average SIZ 64 (50+4d6) with a spread of 54-74. 35000kg is a reasonable guess for weight so you figure SIZ 64 is roughly equal to 35000kg and figure backwards. Bears and horses squeezed in roughly until I came to the elephants.

Elephant SIZ is 6d6+30 average SIZ 51 weight approx 7000kg. Bit odd. Then I realised that there are MRQ elephants out there that are bigger than the average Brontosaurus. In fact there are, according to MRQ, quite a few elephants that are bigger than brontosaurs. I don't know what they feed the MRQiphants but I wouldn't want to get downwind of one.

 

[simonh]

Apparently the largest elephant on record was about 13 tons, if that helps.

Much of the fauna of Glorantha corresponds to that of the Pleistocene era. Perhaps there were bigger species of Elephant back then?

 

[Vatras]

The brontosaurus is estimated above 30 tons, up to 80 tons, depending on what source and scientist you are looking at. So lets make him 50 tons, which is enough to flatten anything it steps upon...

Humans come in SIZ 8 to 18, which should cover the "normal" spectrum, freaks may deviate from this. Assuming SIZ 8 corresponds to 90cm (appr. 3 feet) and SIZ 18 to 210cm (appr. 7 feet), and those people weigh from 30 to 150 kg (60 to 300 lbs), we would get 12cm and 12kg per point of SIZ. This works only for the human range and gets awry when looking at horses and the brontosaurus. So the progression must probably be logarithmic and not linear.
If I would use a linear scale, the bronto with SIZ 64 would weigh less than a ton. For this reason I think it will not be easy to find a simple formula to cover it.

 

[Utgardloki]

Somewhere there is a thread for determining what the different size scores mean. The bottom line was that I determined a formula that was based on the same concept as used in Runequest 3, except that my system doubled the mass for every 10 point increase, while RQ-3 doubled the mass for every 8 point increase.

Also, the RQ-3 system leveled out around SIZE 100, while my system was not intended to level out, although when Atxgxt did a conversion chart, he assumed that it would.

There is a thread discussing this. It also has a a discussion on how to handle small values -- the idea is to have fractional sizes for creatures below SIZE 2, if a GM wanted to do a scenario where a PC was shrunk to very small size.

As for elephants and brontosauri, the SIZE values for both systems are as follows:

13 ton elephant: SIZE 71 (RQ-3) or SIZE 83 (RQ-UL)

30 ton brontosaurus: SIZE 80 (RQ-3) or SIZE 95 (RQ-UL)

50 ton brontosaurus: SIZE 86 (RQ-3) or SIZE 102 (RQ-UL)

80 ton brontosaurus: SIZE 92 (RQ-3) or SIZE 109 (RQ-UL)

If you have the Call of Cthulhu rulebook, their size chart is identical to the RQ-3 size chart. Putting my own chart on the Runequest Wiki is on my "to do" list.

 

[Utgardloki]

To tell the truth, I made up my system before I learned that the RQ-3 table was based on a similar idea. However, after I learned, I decided that a doubling value of 10 was easier to use than a doubling value of 8.

Since mass doubles with a SIZE increase of 10 (in my system), then an increase of 30 means a doubling of height, while an increase of 20 means a doubling of cross section area, which is interesting if considering issues of strength and area. For example, I have a house rule that if combatants have a SIZE difference of 20 or more, the smaller opponent rolls twice and hits the closer hit location, rather than rolling only once.

 

[soltakss]

Since mass doubles with a SIZE increase of 10 (in my system), then an increase of 30 means a doubling of height, while an increase of 20 means a doubling of cross section area, which is interesting if considering issues of strength and area. For example, I have a house rule that if combatants have a SIZE difference of 20 or more, the smaller opponent rolls twice and hits the closer hit location, rather than rolling only once.

Giants add 3D6+6 SIZ per 2m of height, so that is a linear increase of 2m for an average 17 SIZ increase, not doubling at 20. Mass might double, but height doesn't. Technically, doubling height means multiplying mass by 8, but that's using physics and physics and RPGs just don't mix.

Maths and RPGs, on the other hand, go hand in hand down the path to eternal bliss.

For humanoids, I'd use Giant stats to determine height, so a 6m Giant has SIZ 18D6+36, Average 99, so another humaoid with SIZ of around 99 would be about 6m tall. Obviously, things can be relatively shorter and fatter, but it's a good rule of thumb.

SIZ to mass is always tricky and I can't really see any need for it. If you want to use magic to carry things and the magic is based on mass, then larger things just don't get carried as mass increases non-lineraly. If you are carrying things by SIZ then mass doesn't matter. I'd base everything on SIZ for convenience.

 

[simonh]

To tell the truth, I made up my system before I learned that the RQ-3 table was based on a similar idea. However, after I learned, I decided that a doubling value of 10 was easier to use than a doubling value of 8.

Bear in mind that it's not an arbitrary choice, but should be absed on your resolution mechanic.

In RQ3 and other BRP systems I think they went with a doubling value of 8 because in the game system that gave a 90% success chance for the higher stat in the resistance table (+5% advantage per point of stat difference), which seems about right.

In MRQ a stat advantage of 20 or 30 gives a relatively small advantage in the skills used for opposed rolls. Let's take an example of a character with STR 10 and SIZ 15, for a Brute Force contest against a big guy with STR 20 and SIZ 30. Thier Athletics:Brute Force skills start at 25 and 50 respectively.

It turns out according to the MRQ contest calculator that the big guy has only about a 19% advantage over his opponent. The actual odds of the big guy winning (not the numbers they roll against) are 59%, versus 40% for the weakling, ignoring fractions and tied results. i.e in 40% of contests, the guy with a stat total of 25 will win against a guy with a stat total of 50.

From the game mechanics I'd have assumed a doubling every 30 to 50 points, but the creature stats obviously don't bear that out. The whole approach to game ballance and stat scales is so different in MRQ, comparing it to RQ3 doesn't realy work and expectations based on how things worked in RQ3 aren't realy valid.

 

[Utgardloki]

Giants add 3D6+6 SIZ per 2m of height, so that is a linear increase of 2m for an average 17 SIZ increase, not doubling at 20. Mass might double, but height doesn't. Technically, doubling height means multiplying mass by 8, but that's using physics and physics and RPGs just don't mix.

Maths and RPGs, on the other hand, go hand in hand down the path to eternal bliss.

For humanoids, I'd use Giant stats to determine height, so a 6m Giant has SIZ 18D6+36, Average 99, so another humaoid with SIZ of around 99 would be about 6m tall. Obviously, things can be relatively shorter and fatter, but it's a good rule of thumb.

SIZ to mass is always tricky and I can't really see any need for it. If you want to use magic to carry things and the magic is based on mass, then larger things just don't get carried as mass increases non-lineraly. If you are carrying things by SIZ then mass doesn't matter. I'd base everything on SIZ for convenience.

I like having a solid mathematical/physical basis, especially when it is the most convenient way to determine the game mechanics. A horse or snake may have a different shape than a humanoid, but making the SIZE characteristic increase by the log of volume makes for a nice, simple, effective game mechanic.

For most creatures, volume will be proportional to mass. For others, it's easy enough to factor in a density factor.

If you have STR scale with SIZ, then it is easy to figure out who can pick up whom. If you want to be more realistic, it's very easy to set a creatures STR according to 2/3 SIZ (or maybe 2/3 SIZ + 4, so that 10 SIZ yields an average of 10 STR).

For someone who does a lot of creating his own creatures and converting creatures over from different game systems (like I do), the mathematical simplicity is nice. The logarithmic scale (whether based on 8 or 10) is especially nice for converting between RQ and D&D.

As for the MRQ creature stats, they look like they will need significant adjustment, just like the rest of the rulebook.

I did consider a linear/cubic system (height increases linearly while weight increases cubicly), but I think it's more complicated, and has trouble handling very high values. (For example, I once calculated Superman's Strength in D&D -- which has a logarithmic/exponential system -- as approximately 400. In V&V, an 80s-era superhero game with a cubic system for Strength, his Strength score was somewhere around 10 million.)

 

[soltakss]

If you take the example of giants and use the double-height 8xweight, assuming an average SIZ 17 person weighs 100kg, for ease of calculation, you get, for humanoids:

Height(m)  SIZ     Ave SIZ     SIZ Range    Weight
2          3D6+6   16.5          9-24         100
3          5D6+9   24.75        14-36         337.5
4          6D6+12  33           18-48         800
5          8D6+15  41.25        23-60        1562.5
6          9D6+18  49.5         27-72        2700
7          11D6+21 57.75        32-84        4287.5
8          12D6+24 66           36-96        6400
9          14D6+27 74.25        41-108       9112.5
10        15D6+30  82.5         45-120      12500
11        17D6+33  90.75        50-132      16637.5
12        18D6+36  99           54-144      21600
13        20D6+39  107.25       59-156      27462.5
14        21D6+42  115.5        63-168      34300
15        23D6+45  123.75       68-180      42187.5
16        24D6+48  132          72-192      51200

Look at that, allprettied up.

So, a humanoid with SIZ of around 130 would weigh just over 50 tonnes and stand about 16m tall.

The tricky bit is to get it back, so how tall is a SIZ 100 humanoid?
Anyway, it's getting a bit too far away from elephants.

You could just use the RQ3 table, cross your fingers and hope for the best

 

[Rurik]

Use Code Tags and spaces instead of tabs.

EDIT: removed half formated table now that above table is fixed.

 

[soltakss]

Use Code Tags and spaces instead of tabs.
The above is with the Code Tags, I didn't convert the tabs to spaces.

Thanks, fortunately, as if by magic, it looks lovely