Ready weapons, are they worth it in SST:Evo?

[cordas]

I am just really questioning whether or not ready weapons are worth the effort / points in basic SST:Evo.

Yes I know they are specific high damage weapons, but the fact that they tend to be in squads who's normal weapons can't hurt the big stuff, so you loose 2 actions of firing to fire for example put 1 longbow in a LAMI platoon for 35 points:

A) 1 hole punch at a tanker.... Yes that hole punch can hurt a tanker, but it can also bounce and you have lost how many morita shots that could have wipped out how many warriors?

B) 1 fire cracker into some warriors... You have cut down the amount of morita fire by more than half, if you subtract the cost the of the longbow and you gain an extra 3 (or 4) troopers. Yes the FC does splatter damage but enough to make up for the lost fire power? Even if you where to allocate the FC work out its kills before you put the rest of the Morita shots in I doubt it would make up the shortfall.

Given the basic V & D conditions you are always better off taking standard LAMI troopers and just trying to shatter the opponent ignoring the big stuff. Unless you are facing a pure big stuff army such as just Tankers or the Forth; in which case you want to ditch LAMI and just take Grizzlies (if an opponent did that without telling me before I created my army list I would be rather unhappy).

My suggestion is is to drop the ready requirement, just make these weapons only able too fire once per turn. Or keep the ready action but allow the ready weapon to create a seperate FZ.

Or my favoured option would be to allow once per turn weapons to be fired without a ready action AND select a seperate FZ if they wish (surely by this age heavy weapon troops are well enough trained to be able to take a selected shot rather than just firing into the FZ with everyone else). This could be tweaked to if the weapon has a damage value over X.

I would suggest that a Pee Wee still requires a ready action before being fired as it is a special case.

Yes I know this *MAYBE* being addressed in the Advanced rules but they are months away, and might not address this issue anyway.....

 

[Galatea]

Those ready actions have worked well up to now and I can't see a reason to change them.
As already been said, shattering is only one victory condition and the Missile Launchers of the LAMI were always inferior (CAP's Javelin doesn't need a ready action to be fired).

 

[Makoto]

Longbow is a specific support weapon - in a pure-LAMI list it's a neccesity, being the only AA weapon (falcons - without them ripplers turn into a nightmare). In mixed platoons You'll do better to send LAMIs w/snipers (1st ed)/moritas (EVO) only.

As for other Ready weapons (apart from the plasma fire) - personally I find them of little use, spending an action is a great handicap, owerfull as those weapons are.

 

[cordas]

Those ready actions have worked well up to now and I can't see a reason to change them.
As already been said, shattering is only one victory condition and the Missile Launchers of the LAMI were always inferior (CAP's Javelin doesn't need a ready action to be fired).

Yet reactions have been changed to down power the amount of fire power that can be brought to bear in them. The longbow is one of 3 ready weapons already in the game, there is also the LAMI grenade launcher with a range of 10", so why would you ever fire this simply to ready to fire it would prevoke a reaction, so do you want 4 times as many D6 or do you want 4 times less d6+2. Yes I know there are times when a D6 is just not good enough, but....

The 2nd is the Neural beamer, it has a 30inch range and can already be fired at a different target... but again why bother taking one, (unless you are fighting forth or a pure tanker army, and even then you are better off spending the points on more raiders and constrictor cannons) they cost 40 points and reduce the fire power of your soldiers by half after the 1st turn.

The 3rd is the Longbow which I used in my example.

Also

I am just really questioning whether or not ready weapons are worth the effort / points in basic SST:Evo.


Yes I know this *MAYBE* being addressed in the Advanced rules but they are months away, and might not address this issue anyway.....

 

[Poko]

the range.30 or 60" is rather more than 24" of the usual weapons. plus, longbow is the only easily availibe lami weapon able to destroy anything more impressive than cliff mite.

 

[cordas]

the range.30 or 60" is rather more than 24" of the usual weapons. plus, longbow is the only easily availibe lami weapon able to destroy anything more impressive than cliff mite.

Not really, the moritas are plenty good enough to deal with bug warriors, skinnie soilders or raiders and of course other LAMI and Grizzlies oh and they can take down fenros as well, the only things they can't hurt are tankers and fenirs. You might get 1 shot, or 2 if you are extremely lucky with a longbow before the moritas are in range, for which you sacrifice 3-4 guys. For 1 neural beamer you can buy 2 constrictor cannons (or 2 soldiers or raiders).... The grenade launcher is a give away, and is slightly better than original SST one, but its still nurfed IMHO by having to be readied to be used.

All I am saying is I don't see the reason to spend the points on either the Longbow or the Neural beamer. The MI get Grizzlies with fire storms which whilst expensive are very good or can take extra LAMI who can deliver upto 17/23 (shoot, shoot, reaction x 2 x3 or 4 guys minus the one shot from a longbow) extra shots per turn at less range admittedly, and the Skinnies get constrictor cannons which are only -1 damage compared to a NB and give a -2 armour save rather than ignore armour saves, but are half the price and can fire upto 6 times as often....

 

[Makoto]

longbow is the only easily availibe lami weapon able to destroy anything more impressive than cliff mite.

Morita Long comes to mind. Also regular morita fire is usually enough to bring down anything short of Ripplers (if used as air units) and Tankers, although both regular and thorny tanker can easily fall prey to flechettes should they make the mistake of approaching too many squads (usually more than one) at the same time.

 

[cordas]

Just a quick note, I am talking about SSt:EVO here, and NOT original SST. Different rules.... hence the question.... Are Ready weapons worth the effort in SST:EVO.

 

[Xorrandor]

Yet reactions have been changed to down power the amount of fire power that can be brought to bear in them. The longbow is one of 3 ready weapons already in the game, there is also the LAMI grenade launcher with a range of 10", so why would you ever fire this simply to ready to fire it would prevoke a reaction, so do you want 4 times as many D6 or do you want 4 times less d6+2. Yes I know there are times when a D6 is just not good enough, but....

Reactions have been changed so you only have one reaction, as well. So you fire Moritas at those Warriors until they get sick of it and make a charge Reaction, then you can fire Bugshot with impunity.

I realize they are different games, but compare LAMI to USMC or PLA infantry. They have much more flexible weaponry options, but they must take a Ready action to use some of them. Seems like a valid trade. Also, it is possible that the Longbow uses a Ready action like the machine guns do in BF:Evo; I wouldn't suspect so, but I can read the preview cards either way.

 

[Gauntlet-]

I think the answer depends on the army/unit,

for LAMI it is simply a punishment for their super cheap and useful infantry, that they do not have a great artillery option like the javelin, instead they have the longbow, which while a ready weapon provides anti-armor they just otherwise don't have, and extreme range.

Whereas for the skinnies it does become a very different question and I don't disagree

and for bugs obviously its worth it, assuming the plasma doesn't change significantly.

 

[cordas]

Yet reactions have been changed to down power the amount of fire power that can be brought to bear in them. The longbow is one of 3 ready weapons already in the game, there is also the LAMI grenade launcher with a range of 10", so why would you ever fire this simply to ready to fire it would prevoke a reaction, so do you want 4 times as many D6 or do you want 4 times less d6+2. Yes I know there are times when a D6 is just not good enough, but....

Reactions have been changed so you only have one reaction, as well. So you fire Moritas at those Warriors until they get sick of it and make a charge Reaction, then you can fire Bugshot with impunity.

I realize they are different games, but compare LAMI to USMC or PLA infantry. They have much more flexible weaponry options, but they must take a Ready action to use some of them. Seems like a valid trade. Also, it is possible that the Longbow uses a Ready action like the machine guns do in BF:Evo; I wouldn't suspect so, but I can read the preview cards either way.

How do LAMI fire bugshot with impunity, it can only be fired after a ready action, and never in reaction. The bugs have to be within 10 inches for it to be any good, this will give them a reaction. I can see a bug player once making a mistake and finishing his charge between 6.1 and 9.9 inches from the LAMI allowing them to fire bug shot without getting charged and hitting some bugs, but I can't see a bug player making that mistake twice.... remember that if the warriors, tanker whatever stop at 10.1 inches away from the LAMi then the LAMI gets NO REACTION to that movement.

So again my point is why / how would you ever use bugshot? The more I look at it the less use it is, and I started off thinking it was pointless so its quite an achievement to see it as worse than pointless.

Also in however many hundred years they have lost the ability to make grenade launchers that can fire without a ready action, and they aren't able to train the few troopers who they value longbows too enough to be able to fire them without delaying the whole squad, and then when its fired spoil the shooting by the rest of the squad.... again

The more I look at it the less use it is, and I started off thinking it was pointless so its quite an achievement to see it as worse than pointless.

 

[cordas]

Whereas for the skinnies it does become a very different question and I don't disagree

and for bugs obviously its worth it, assuming the plasma doesn't change significantly.

The Skinnies don't have it quite so bad, as they can at least aim the NB at a different firing point to the rest of the squad.

As for the bugs they don't currently have the plasma bug in Evo, but I agree that it should still require a ready action like the Pee Wee (and maybe the trip hammer mortar thingy that marauders get), these are specail weapons and it seems right that they need to be readied 1st, but infantry weapons.... nope not when the downside far outweighs the usefulness of the weapon.

 

[mutantpoo]

Simple...... Just give the LAMI the non-ready shotguns they had from the movie :!: Problem solved

 

[Makoto]

If Trip Hammer retains it's current damage rate then Ready action on it is imo too much of a punishment - now fess up gentlemen, who actually used this weapon instead of maneuvering the Ape within 20" of the enemy and blazing away with long burts?

 

[Gauntlet-]

oh absolutely- frankly I hope they replace it with a one shot non ready weapon of similar damage, those things fired a small mini rocket barrage in the show... It would make sense for it to be similar to the chicken hawks blizzard pack.

then I might use it.


in evo does a squad that is readied re-roll its squad weapon misses... this largely fixed the issue at hand with long bows in the original game...

I think the long bow is justified, I agree about grenades though, id rather they just not exist personally

 

[cordas]

in evo does a squad that is readied re-roll its squad weapon misses... this largely fixed the issue at hand with long bows in the original game...

There is nothing in the basic rules to say that readying weapons allows re-rolls. If it did I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it..... As it stands whilst the longbow it either takes the entire squad to do it, or the rest stand around in awe watching the longbow(s) are loaded.

It has been said in the Advanced rules for Bf: Evo that other troops will be able to do things whilst specail weapons are readied. Its just that the advanced rules for BF come out in just over a months time, we have to wait till at least august for the advanced rules for SST:evo.

 

[Poko]

and that's a big problem, because there are a grand total of 2 units per each faction right now, and no old rules, with full army lists, to use till the new ones release? :wink:

 

[Xorrandor]

It has been said in the Advanced rules for Bf: Evo that other troops will be able to do things whilst specail weapons are readied. Its just that the advanced rules for BF come out in just over a months time, we have to wait till at least august for the advanced rules for SST:evo.

Actually, I thought wave 1 of the SST minis was August. If they follow the BF:evo pattern, it will then be a month or two before we see advanced rules anyway.

Regardless of release dates, I certainly would try to port over as much of the BF:evo advanced rules as make sense when they come out. "Things to do with a Ready action" seems like a class of things that should be portable between the two systems. It's just going to be you and your friends around the table, so I think you'll be safe running with house rules for a few months.

 

[cordas]

It's just going to be you and your friends around the table, so I think you'll be safe running with house rules for a few months.

ROFLOL... Its my house where we play and I get shouted down for trying to suggest simple house rules like if you measure something to be inside or outside such and such range / arc whatever then anounce it then to stop arguements later.....

 

[Galatea]

In SST you CAN premeasure. It's in the rules.

And what is it everyone whining about SST Evo? Longbow has always been ready and has always worked. Why shouldn't it work in SST Evo - not every game is a 'shatter mission'.


btw I think it would be a dumb idea to release the cards per wave - I won't even think of playing SST Evo until ALL the cards are out (what will probably take a year).