Reach

[Supplement Four]

It's been months since my gaming group has been able to get together for our campaign. Our game is still alive--we just get back to it when we can. Suck being adults, ya know?

Anyway, I don't have access to the books right at this moment, and I was wondering about reach. How does the Conan RPG benefit a character with a polearm? I forgot.

 

[Boneguard]

Thanks to the reach he can attack people 10' away (2 squares) but cannot threaten people next to him.

So if you go polearm, make sure he is a second rank fighter attacking people from afar while the front rank fighter engage with sword or mace.

 

[Supplement Four]

Ah, yes, thanks.

It seems like there should be some benefit from the first attack--like a +2 to hit for the first attack only. This nods back to first edition AD&D where the character with the longer weapon attacked first, regardless of regular initiative, on the first round of combat only.

That might be a good feat for this game--for someone who specializes with a long weapon. Give 'em +2 attack on the first round only.

 

[Boneguard]

Ah, yes, thanks.

It seems like there should be some benefit from the first attack--like a +2 to hit for the first attack only. This nods back to first edition AD&D where the character with the longer weapon attacked first, regardless of regular initiative, on the first round of combat only.

A yes 1st edition. Then you had the other fun thing when, once the initial attack was done and the enemy was 'inside' your weapon range (next to you, when you are using a 10' long halbard) and his weapon was a lot quicker then your (say like a daggerwith a speed factor of 2) he would get extra attacks against you, becasue he could hit you more often then you could by the time you could bear your weapon to strike him.

 

[rabindranath72]

Ah, yes, thanks.

It seems like there should be some benefit from the first attack--like a +2 to hit for the first attack only. This nods back to first edition AD&D where the character with the longer weapon attacked first, regardless of regular initiative, on the first round of combat only.

A yes 1st edition. Then you had the other fun thing when, once the initial attack was done and the enemy was 'inside' your weapon range (next to you, when you are using a 10' long halbard) and his weapon was a lot quicker then your (say like a daggerwith a speed factor of 2) he would get extra attacks against you, becasue he could hit you more often then you could by the time you could bear your weapon to strike him.

I love AD&D 8)

 

[Supplement Four]

A yes 1st edition. Then you had the other fun thing when, once the initial attack was done and the enemy was 'inside' your weapon range (next to you, when you are using a 10' long halbard) and his weapon was a lot quicker then your (say like a daggerwith a speed factor of 2) he would get extra attacks against you, becasue he could hit you more often then you could by the time you could bear your weapon to strike him.

Yep. Cool stuff. IIRC, it was the first use of the "speed factor", and it really was a "factor", unlike in AD&D 2E.

Dagger, with SF 2, could attack three times against a weapon with SF 6 (since 2 is a factor of 6 by 3).

That sure gave the dagger a chance, didn't it? Most of the time, a longsword, doing 1d8, was the way to go against a dagger, doing 1d4. But, in those circumstances where the dagger could get in 3 attacks, the possible 3d4 vs. 1d8 made the dagger a much more viable weapon than upon first inspection.

Every round, initiative was thrown to see who attacked first (it didn't effect character actions--only who got to attack before whom). It was a simple d6 throw. No modifiers. Just higher die. Whomever rolled higher on the six sider got to attack first.

But...when doubles where thrown (the character and his opponent rolled the same on the six sider), the weapon's speed factor were consulted as mentioned above. Thus, the dagger could get two or three attacks against an opponent's longer weapon.



I wish that stuff was still considered under 3E.

 

[Boneguard]

Yes.

That's why my Saturday RPG group play AD&D 1st ed.

 

[Supplement Four]

It wouldn't be that big a deal to import the 1E AD&D combat mechanics into Conan, I don't think. You'd keep Conan combat the excact same as written except when the characters were engaged in combat. Thus, initiative is, indeed, only thrown once, as per the game, and each character keeps his initiative throughout the encounter.

But, when combat starts, the simple d6 from 1E is thrown to see who gets first blow--no matter who's turn it is. 1E combat mechanics are used. Just assign SFs from 1E to the Conan weapons. That shouldn't be too hard.



Here are the simple rules of combat from 1E AD&D.

1. - The longer weapon always strikes first, on the first round only.

2. - Each combat round, an unmodified d6 is thrown. The character with the higher throw attacks first.

3. - Ties on the combat initiative throws in 2 mean that weapon speed factors are consulted, possibly allowing shorter weapons more attacks.

4. - If a character gets more than one attack in a round, then he must alternate them, allowing his opponent to attack in between his attacks. Thus, if a character with combat initiative gets two attacks per combat round, he can attack, then his opponent attacks, then his second attack is played.





A combat round would look like this:

Conan vs. two Vanir, one with an axe and one with a two handed sword. We'll say that Conan gets 2 attacks per round but the Vanir don't.

Initiative is thrown as usual. Conan moves first, followed by the redbeard with the axe then the redbeard with the sword.

1. So, it's Conan's move. He runs up to the Vanir with the axe and attacks. Now, these two are engaged in melee. So, the d6 is thrown. It's a tie, and as it turns out, the Vanir's axe gets two swings this round.

Conan attacks.
Vanir attacks.
Conan's second attack.
Vanir's second attack.

2. The axe Vanir should go now, but his turn was interrupted by Conan attacking him. He's done his actions for the round.

3. It's the Vanir swordsman's turn. He runs into the melee to help his buddy. He only gets one attack per round, and his target, Conan, has already gone this round. So, the Vanir attacks.





What's cool about these rules is that the combat round can turn out differently. There's enough spice thrown in to make things very interesting.

To review, above, what we had was this...

Conan moved to the axe Vanir and attacked.
The axe Vanir attacked.
Conan's second attack.
The axe Vanir's second attack.
The Vanir swordman's attack.



Here's how the round could be completely different...

Let's change so that the Vanir swordman has initiative. Followed by Conan, followed by the Vanir with the axe.

He'll move to fight Conan. Since this is the first attack, and the Vanir has a weapon from a longer weapon class than Conan, the Vanir automatically gets to attack first. But, Conan still gets his two attacks per round.

Vanir swordman attack.
Conan's first attack.
Conan's second attack.

Conan's turn has been stolen from him in the melee (as Conan did to the axe Vanir in the first example), and it's the turn of the axe Vanir.

Vanir axeman attacks.





In version 1, this was the order of the fight.

Conan moved to the axe Vanir and attacked.
The axe Vanir attacked.
Conan's second attack.
The axe Vanir's second attack.
The Vanir swordman's attack.




In version 2, this was the order of the fight.

Vanir swordman attack.
Conan's first attack.
Conan's second attack.
Vanir axeman attacks.





I like the pizzazz this puts into the game. I may play around with this and consider using it in my campaign. It's pretty neat.

It does add some extra dice rolls, but not as many as you might think upon first consideration.

In version 1, we had one extra dice throw, the combat initiative throw between Conan and the Vanir axeman.

In version 2, we had no extra dice throws, because the weapon length rule was used.

Of course, we're tallking about 1 round of combat. I think you'll get an extra roll or two here and there if played out for a couple of rounds.

 

[Boneguard]

Or you get the 2 Conan modules for AD&D and use those

I essentially own all 4 Conan game system (AD&D 1st ed, TRS's Conan, GURPS conan and Conan (OGL) 2nd edition).

I'm a gaming nerd.

 

[Supplement Four]

I essentially own all 4 Conan game system (AD&D 1st ed, TRS's Conan, GURPS conan and Conan (OGL) 2nd edition).

I've got 'em too, plus the entire line of Mongoose Conan.

I just haven't read everything. :shock:

 

[Boneguard]

I essentially own all 4 Conan game system (AD&D 1st ed, TRS's Conan, GURPS conan and Conan (OGL) 2nd edition).

I've got 'em too, plus the entire line of Mongoose Conan.

I just haven't read everything. :shock:

First 3, I got all of the line, however I do not own the entire Mongoose Conan line.

So far I've read all of them too.

 

[Supplement Four]

I was thinking... (Oh no!)

The chance of rolling doubles on two six siders is 16.67%. That's the probability, each combat round, that a shorter, lighter weapon will be allowed extra attacks under the 1E AD&D combat system.

How to easily import that into Conan....so that, every once in a while, a dagger gets more than one attack? Or, an extra attack?

What you could do is something similar to the Critical Threat.

For example, let's look at the poinard. That weapon throws a critical threat on a 19-20.

If a character with a poinard were fighting against an enemy with a much longer and heavier weapon, we could give him a 15% shot of gaining multiple attacks. Simply, this would be done by having a 3-number range underneath the critical threat numbers.

Let's see it in an example...



Vanir uses bardiche and has initiative.

Conan uses a poinard.



Using standard Conan RPG rules, the Vanir moves and attacks. Then, on Conan's turn, he swings with his poinard at the Vanir. On every blow, if he rolls a 19-20, he's scored a critical threat. But, if he rolls a 16-17-18, he gets extra attacks that round (he doesn't have to hit. He just has to roll a natural 16-17-18).

What this does is give Conan a 15% chance each round of gaining additonal attacks because his weapon is smaller, lighter, more easily maneuvered.

All of a sudden, the character with only a dagger has a fighting chance (or, at least a better chance) to stay alive and defeat his enemy.

Daggers and knives are viable weapons.





So, the Vanir swings his bardiche, and Conan dodges the swing. Then, Conan throws an attack and rolls a natural 16 on the 20 sider. Conan needs a 17 to hit the Vanir, but the Cimmerian's attack bonuses make the attack successful.

This means that Conan has one successful attack and one or two bonus attacks this round.





How do you determine how many extra attacks Conan gets?

Use a simple system based on weapon weight and weapoin type. For light melee weapons, add 1 to the weapon's weight as its SF. For One Handed melee weapons, add 2 to the weapon's weight as its Speed Factor. For Two Handed Melee weapons, add 3 to the weapon's weight to find its Speed Factor.

Then, simply use the 1E AD&D method for determining number of attacks allowed for that weapon during the round. If the larger weapon has a SF of at least twice the SF of the smaller weapon, then the smaller weapon gets an extra attack. If the SF will go into the larger' weapons' SF three times or more, then the character with the smaller weapon is allowed extra attacks accordingly.



In the Conan/Vanir fight, above, the poinard would have SF 2. The bardiche would be SF 10.

This means that, on a roll of 16-17-18, natural, that Conan would get "inside" the defensives of the long-reach weapon. Conan and his poinard would get 5 attacks that round against the same enemy (because 10/2 = 5 ).



This may need to be tweaked a bit, but the idea is neat.

 

[Supplement Four]

Taking a closer look at the 1E AD&D speed factors, its actually easier (than what I suggest above) to just double the weapon's weight and use that as its speed factor. That's something that can be done on the fly and doesn't require more information about a weapon to be recorded.

Doubling the weight makes most weapons close to their 1E AD&D SF numbers.

Thus, the poinard's SF is 2, while the bardiche's SF is 14.

So, yeah, the bardiche is a hell of a weapon, doing 1d10+1d8 damage, every time it hits, plus doing damage x3 when a critical is thrown.

Does the dude with the poinard stand a chance, doing his small 1d6 damage in comparison?

It can be a decent, a bit more realistic fight if the character with the poinard is given a 15% chance of 7 extra attacks every round.

I think I really like this rule.

 

[Supplement Four]

Remember that the 15% check is only made on the first strike of the round by the character with the shorter, lighter weapon. If the natural is isn't thrown on the first attack from the smaller, lighter weapon, then it's not checked again until the next combat round.

And, if it's not possible for extra attacks to occur (the SF of the smaller weapon is at least half the SF of the larger weapon).

Thus, a character with a scimtar (SF 5) will never get any bonus against an enemy with a battleaxe (SF 6).

 

[Supplement Four]

Eureka!! I've got it!

For the Conan RPG, we'll make it a Combat Maneuver.

The character with the smaller weapon initiates (since he's the only one that can benefit). When the Maneuver is performed, the character gives up an attack. Instead of rolling an attack, the character tosses a d6 to match with his enemy (both throw d6's). If doubles result, then the character gets his extra SF attacks that round. If doubles does not show on the toss, the character loses his attack.

Doing this, the character is going to lose his attack much more often than he's going to gain the extra attacks--but the extra attacks can be very deadly (as we've seen...7 attack vs. enemy with bardiche).



Example.

Conan wields a knife (SF 2) when he is attacked by a Pict using a hunting spear (SF 4).

The Pict has initiave.

If Conan wants to try and get an extra attack, he can forgoe his attack and roll the six sider check. Doubles means he gets two attacks that round. Any other result means that Conan is flashing his blade around, trying to scare the enmy.

 

[Boneguard]

Sounds interesting. I think we need to playtest it to see if it's well balanced or not.

But yes it would make life a lot more interesting

 

[Supplement Four]

Playtesting is always required, of course. Eyeballing it, though, it looks balanced. The character must give up an attack to attempt the maneuver. And, the maneuver is only successful 16% of the time (so, most of the time, the maneuver fails).

If the maneuver succeeds, though, it can be deadly. What I really like about this is how it changes the game and makes the weight of a weapon very important to a character. Players will not only look at damage output, but how heavy a weapon is, too.

Here's what I'm thinking:



KNIFE MOVES Combat Maneuver

You slice and cut your knife through the air in multiple feints, your actions designed to get inside your opponent's swing and take advantage of your smaller, lighter weapon.

Action: Standard

Circumstance: The Speed Factor of a weapon is its weight doubled. The character must be in melee combat and using a weapon (it does not have to be a knife) where its Speed Factor is at least half that of his opponent's weapon. The maneuver can only be attempted once per round.

Effect: In the place of a standard attack, the character rolls a d6 which is matched by a d6 throw from his target. If the two d6 throws are matched dice (doubles), then the character has found a way inside his opponent's guard and is allowed to perform a number of attacks determined by comparing weapon speed factors. Any other result on the d6 throw means that the character swings his weapon threateningly but is unable to find his way under the guard of his opponent (the net effect being he loses his attack).

When dice are matched, the number of attacks is determined by comparing the weapon's Speed Factor (divide the smaller into the larger). A SF 2 dagger would gain 7 attacks against a SF 14 bardiche, but a SF 6 battleaxe would get only 1 attack agains a SF 8 warhammer. Thus the maneuver is only viable with 2+ attacks are possible (when the SF of the smaller weapon is at least half the SF of the larger weapon).





Example: Conan has initiative and is using the only weapon he can get his hands on--a stilleto (SF 1) that was thrown at him.

A gnarly faced Gunderman is attacking him using a nasty spiked heavy mace (SF 8 ).

Conan acts first, due to initiative, and he decides to attempt the Knife Moves combat maneuver. Instead of attacking, he throws a d6. The Gunderman throws a d6. If the two dice match, then Conan is allowed 8 attacks on the Gunderman this round. Any other result on the dice means that Conan slashed and thrusted with his stilleto but never found an opening inside the Gunderman's swing (and Conan was not allowed to attack).

Note that the maneuver requires a single standard attack to perform. If Conan is high enough level to earn extra attacks, he only has to give up one of them to try the maneuver. If Conan has two attacks, then one can be given to attempt the combat maneuver while the other remains a standard attack. If the manevuer yields extra attacks, those attacks are considered immediate actions.

 

[Boneguard]

True. I agree with you, when you eyeball it it seems pretty well balanced and shouldn't be a problem.

I might add it to my games

 

[Supplement Four]

True. I agree with you, when you eyeball it it seems pretty well balanced and shouldn't be a problem.

And, with the low chance of success, it probably won't be used that often. The "payoff" has to be worth it. One attack is definitely not worth it because the character could get that anyway. Somewhere at two or more attacks might be worth it depending on defense and player estimation of the fight.

A knife vs. a broadsword would get two attacks. So, the knife wielder gets one attack automatically or gives that up for a 16% chance at two attacks. Is that worth it?

 

[rabindranath72]

If you are going with the AD&D system, don't forget how spellcasters are dealt with under AD&D rules. The system makes casting in melee a very dangerous proposition.

Oh, and in AD&D, you could get at most THREE attacks if your speed factor was low enough, not the actual ratio of factors. The actual rule is:

When weapon speed factor is the determinant of which opponent strikes
first in a melee round, there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled
to multiple attacks. Compare the score of the lower-factored weapon with
that of the higher. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower,
or 5 or more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower factored
weapon is entitled to 2 attacks before the opponent with the higher
weapon factor is entitled to any attack whatsoever. If the difference is 10
or greater, the opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to 2
attacks before the opponent is allowed to attack, and 1 further attack at the
same time the opponent with the higher-speed-factored weapon finally is
allowed to attack. Note that such speed factor considerations are not applicable
when either closing or charging to melee, but after an initial
round of combat, or in cases where closing/charging was not necessary,
the speed factor considerations are applicable.