questions re: hg2e

[DarkDawning]

Just a few questions about high guard 2e

1) on breakaway ships and station each working section needs a computer, and ships can have no more than two computers, what happens when five sub ships come together (to form voltron ) does the two computer rule not apply to breakaway or do the extra computers shut down?

2) do manufacturing plants require raw materials to function? or does the output appear from jump space

3) is there some difference between construction deck and shipyard , both cost the same per ton, yet the deck only takes 2 tons space per ship tonnage built, the shipyard option takes 5 ton space per ship tonnage built

Thanks,
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Just once i'd like to take off from a planet that isn't on fire - raven

 

[PsiTraveller]

I'll take a swing at this.
1: For breakaway ships I would have the extra computers shut down and be controlled by the main computer. The ship would have more than two computers, but the rules for breakaway ships need a ship to be controllable, so a computer would be required. It's an odd split in the rules. There is a product on Drivethru, the Fessor Cargo ship has a main ship and 4 breakaway units. Each sub unit has a computer with virtual crew software. It is an interesting design.

2: Raw materials would be required, but there are no rules given for the amount needed. Output from asteroid refineries and smelters are given, and the amount of ore needed is given, but there are no rules for inputs to the production facilities given in the rules.

3: Where are you getting the 5 tons of space for a shipyard ? Page 45 of Highguard Construction deck has half the tonnage being built, so 2 tons per ton. Page 62 has the Shipyard and takes 2 tons per ton built. I don't see the 5 tons.

 

[DarkDawning]

3: Where are you getting the 5 tons of space for a shipyard ? Page 45 of Highguard Construction deck has half the tonnage being built, so 2 tons per ton. Page 62 has the Shipyard and takes 2 tons per ton built. I don't see the 5 tons

page 62 in upper right paragraph says 5 tons per ton of ship size gives example of a 10k ton shipyard can make a 2k ton ship
so i guess its better to put a 10k ton construction deck and get 5k ship build capacity

 

[Geir]

3: Where are you getting the 5 tons of space for a shipyard ? Page 45 of Highguard Construction deck has half the tonnage being built, so 2 tons per ton. Page 62 has the Shipyard and takes 2 tons per ton built. I don't see the 5 tons

page 62 in upper right paragraph says 5 tons per ton of ship size gives example of a 10k ton shipyard can make a 2k ton ship
so i guess its better to put a 10k ton construction deck and get 5k ship build capacity

Um, my copies, both PDF and physical say "(so, a 10,000 ton shipyard can build ships totalling up to 5,000 tons)." (I cut and pasted out of the PDF in case my eyes were playing tricks on me...)

 

[DarkDawning]

Odd only have book from used book store, must be a misprint? tho i didnt know that could happen sigh.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Once a breakaway hull rejoins, it becomes a composite whole, and as such, defaults to the most powerful shipboard computer.

2. Sure, but I think High Guard left it at asteroid mining; the abstract method would be just book keeping, throwing money at the issue.

3. Probably needs a lot more volume, if you include the individual ship systems manufacturing; seems more assembly, like a drydock.

 

[DickTurpin]

My High Guard book also shows five tons needed per ton built in a shipyard. Went to DrivethruRPG.com and downloaded the version updated September 1, 2016 and the number had been corrected to two tons per ton built.

 

[DarkDawning]

1: For breakaway ships I would have the extra computers shut down and be controlled by the main computer. The ship would have more than two computers, but the rules for breakaway ships need a ship to be controllable, so a computer would be required. It's an odd split in the rules. There is a product on Drivethru, the Fessor Cargo ship has a main ship and 4 breakaway units. Each sub unit has a computer with virtual crew software. It is an interesting design.

I guess the part where it says ships and stations can have multiple distributed computer networks seemed opposite to the one computer rule. so the maximum bandwidth a ship or station can have is 100? Any other computer cores just counting as backup and not able to do work while the main is operational?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

... so the maximum bandwidth a ship or station can have is 100? Any other computer cores just counting as backup and not able to do work while the main is operational?

Yes. You have to choose which software to run.

 

[DarkDawning]

... so the maximum bandwidth a ship or station can have is 100? Any other computer cores just counting as backup and not able to do work while the main is operational?
Yes. You have to choose which software to run.

sigh. there goes my space station with 100 virtual crew

 

[AnotherDilbert]

sigh. there goes my space station with 100 virtual crew

Not a problem:

Virtual Crew can replace up to five pilots, gunners or sensor operators on board a ship, ...
...
The package can replace any number of crew, though will require +1 Bandwidth for every 5 crew or part of beyond the first five.

100 virtual crew would only take ~10 + 95/5 ≈ 30 bandwidth or so.

 

[DarkDawning]

sorry I was thinking 1000 and missed a zero mainly testing the rules to see what can and can't be done. a large station with lots of manufacturing plants would run out of memory for virtual crew long before it got to class a starport size... explains why humans still have a job in the future

 

[Geir]

sorry I was thinking 1000 and missed a zero mainly testing the rules to see what can and can't be done. a large station with lots of manufacturing plants would run out of memory for virtual crew long before it got to class a starport size... explains why humans still have a job in the future

Or, robots.

 

[DarkDawning]

crew long before it got to class a starport size... explains why humans still have a job in the future

Or, robots.

All Hail our robot Overlords
Yes looks like robots are the solutions for all ones staffing needs


2: Raw materials would be required, but there are no rules given for the amount needed. Output from asteroid refineries and smelters are given, and the amount of ore needed is given, but there are no rules for inputs to the production facilities given in the rules.

hmmmm the smelter takes in 2k ore and spits out 5k raw materials. So output x .4 equals input. if manufacturing plants use same rules a basic plant would making a ton of common manufactured goods worth 20k would consume (20k x .4 ) 8k worth of raw materials?

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Just once I'd like to take off from a planet that isn't on fire - raven

 

[AnotherDilbert]

hmmmm the smelter takes in 2k ore and spits out 5k raw materials.

You really can't produce more output than input. Some wastage will happen so output have to be smaller than input unless you turn energy into matter at the normal ruinous rate.

Fortunately that is not required:

Each ton of smelter allows the processing of 0.2 tons of Ores into 0.1 tons of Raw Materials per day.

 

[DarkDawning]

i was saying it inputs 2k credits worth of ores and puts out 5k credits of raw materials and suggested the basic plants would in making one ton of product which is worth 20k credit would consume 8k credits worth of raw material which is roughly 1.5 ton of raw material into one ton of product

 

[Condottiere]

Not all raw material extraction is equal.

The rarity of the mineral per default tonne, and any toxic by products of the extraction process, whether by introducing certain catalysts, or associated minerals.

It's one reason ecology regulation practically shut down rare earth mining in the West, until China flexed it's monopoly against Japan.

 

[DarkDawning]

at 20th century earths tl all that is true, but the imperial smelters have lots of technology in their tool box that we do not. and the result is an abstracted thing (basic raw materials) so while the percentage of iron, aluminum, copper, ect. will vary from one chunk of ore to the next they would all be basic raw materials in the end.

i was trying to figure out some game balanced method to use the manufacturing plants, the smelter rules say Each ton of smelter allows the processing of
0.2 tons(worth 200 credits) of Ores into 0.1 tons (worth 500 credits) of Raw Materials. i was trying to use the value increase instead of volume reduction so i didn't end up with two tons of raw materials(10k credits) becoming 1 ton of robots (400k credits) , i was suggesting applying the same value increase the smelter gets to manufacturing plants so a 400k credits(1 ton) of robots would take 160k credits of raw materials (32 ton) , at least until some updated rules come out regarding them

 

[AnotherDilbert]

i was saying it inputs 2k credits worth of ores and puts out 5k credits of raw materials ...

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I agree the output have to be worth more than the input for the manufacturing to exist, of course.

 

[DickTurpin]

Going from ore to raw materials generates waste because rocks contain a bunch of material that are not useful. Once ore is purified, the amount of waste is greatly reduced. Machining a gear out of a lump of steel does not destroy the metal removed, it is still good steel that can be recycled into more feedstock. The same is true for machine parts and other processed items, manufacturers buy only what they need to make their products. In an ideal situation there would be no waste at all creating the finished product.

I tried once to chart out what materials would be needed to make trade goods and from there what goods would be needed to build vehicles and ships. You can fairly easily come up with the total tonnage of electronics required for a ship's sensors, but what is needed to make the electronics? Some mix of common and uncommon raw materials, precious metals, and polymers, plus possibly a bit of crystals & gems would be needed. Deciding how much of each goes into a ton of advanced electronics is a near impossible task.

An abstract system assuming that some percentage of a machine's final cost goes into it's manufacture would work best. Many game systems set that value at 50% of the final price. While that may be fine for simple items, more complex items have lower profit margins. I have been out of the business for many years now, but aerospace companies typically had margins of 10 to 20%, so a ship might cost 80 to 90% of the final price to make.