question re weapons with burst radius

[Bede]

Some weapons like RPG's say they roll damage dice for each model within a certain distance of the center of the first model to which a damage die is allocated.

If the models within the distance of the first are in cover, do they get the bonus for cover?

How about if they are obscured?

THanks.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Simple, if the card doesn't state they lose such cover then they still have it.

 

[cordas]

Again with the agreement...

Any models that are in cover, or behind terrain that can grant cover (such as behind a wall from the point of the explosion) gain the advantages of cover from these explosions, also any models that can claim obscurement from where the explosion happened gain the advantages of obscurement.

Just note that when you are working out wether models are in cover or obscured you need to use the center point of the model that took the explosion, where the shooting came from isn't relevant in this regard.

 

[Bondarus]

Can always rely on The Old soldier and Cordas to come up with the goods. :wink:

 

[xbowmen]

Hmmmm Lets say I have a target that is behind a low wall. I place my FZ marker just behind the target model which is just behine the wall .Since the arc or AOE cover the target but does not go beyond the wall, the target does not get cover even though the wall is in between the firer and the target? right?
Den :roll:

 

[cordas]

Hmmmm Lets say I have a target that is behind a low wall. I place my FZ marker just behind the target model which is just behine the wall .Since the arc or AOE cover the target but does not go beyond the wall, the target does not get cover even though the wall is in between the firer and the target? right?
Den :roll:

Actually you can't place your FP behind the wall (unless you allow them to be placed in mid air, which we don't allow unless you are saying you are marking the point just outside a window on the nth floor) as you can't get LOS to the FP.

However using your example (but with a FP on or in front of the wall) and your grenade hits one of 3 models behind the wall, then if the other 2 models are in the blast radius then they can't claim cover or obscurement from the wall as the explosion happens on the same side of the wall as them.

Hope that clears it up

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Hmmmm Lets say I have a target that is behind a low wall. I place my FZ marker just behind the target model which is just behine the wall .Since the arc or AOE cover the target but does not go beyond the wall, the target does not get cover even though the wall is in between the firer and the target? right?
Den :roll:

Nope, direct fire weapons count cover that intervenes LOS between the firer and target. If you had 3 guys behind a wall and a blast weapon (say an RPG round) hit the one in the middle, the other two would take blast damage with no cover, because there's no cover intervening between them and the source of the blast.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Can you show that anwser in the rule book? :roll:

 

[cordas]

Can you show that anwser in the rule book? :roll:

Nope, because its not in the rule book, its on the unit cards for example

Rheinmetall L55:This weapon causes a –4 penalty to Armour rolls, and will roll extra Damage Dice (but only D6+1 with no penalty to Armour rolls) against every model within 2” of the centre of the model its first Damage Dice is allocated to - these extra models need not be in Line of Sight.

Common sense would say that everything is worked out from the center of the explosion, anything else simply won't make sense, I would say this is backed up by the statement about LOS. OK this isn't spelt out in black and white, but if you read the specail rule as written its quite clear what the intent is. No doubt I will be completly wrong and the explosion will follow the LOS arranged by the unit shooting..... :roll:

 

[The Old Soldier]

artillery do not work the same it doesn't have a blast radius, it just states all models within the FZ take a d6 or a d6+1, it doesn't say cover is negated. I did say, if it's not on the card, then the model in cover counts the cover.

 

[cordas]

artillery do not work the same it doesn't have a blast radius, it just states all models within the FZ take a d6 or a d6+1, it doesn't say cover is negated. I did say, if it's not on the card, then the model in cover counts the cover.

Huh, I am not saying that blasts negate cover, only cover that was gained from the shooting by being behind a wall for example. If the grenade goes off on the otherside of the wall from the shooting, and all 3 models are on the same side of the wall then those models can't claim cover from the grenade.

. 12 3 (Models) all 3 models are inside the FZ
.------------- (Example 1 - Wall. Example 2 - edge of wood)
. X (FP)
.
.A B C (Shooting unit)


Example 1
Models 1,2 and 3 can all claim cover as they are behind the wall from the shooting unit. Model A has a RPG, it scores a hit (B and C miss). The DD for the RPG is allocated to 1 as it is the closest, 2 is within the splash so gets hit by it, he can't claim cover or obscurement from the wall as the explosion is on the same side of the wall as him.


Example 2
If 1,2 and 3 happened to be on the edge of a wood, rather than behind a wall then 2 would gain a cover bonus against the explosion

 

[Paladin]

Who says the explosion is on the same side though? An RPG is a direct fire weapon not a lobbed grenade. If the first target gets cover, isn't it implied that the RPG hits the wall and damages the target through it? As you're stating it, the round has to literally hit the soldier's body on the other side and then explode.

 

[cordas]

Who says the explosion is on the same side though? An RPG is a direct fire weapon not a lobbed grenade. If the first target gets cover, isn't it implied that the RPG hits the wall and damages the target through it? As you're stating it, the round has to literally hit the soldier's body on the other side and then explode.

Err the explosion rules on the cards say where the explosion happens

AT-14 Kornet: This weapon causes a –3 penalty to Armour rolls, and will roll extra Damage Dice (but only D6 with no penalty to Armour rolls) against every model within 1” of the centre of the model its first Damage Dice is allocated to - these extra models need not be in Line of Sight. It may only be fired once per turn, and never as a reaction. If a model of Size 2 or greater is within the Fire Zone, you may opt to roll this weapon’s Damage Dice against that model, rather than allocate normally.

The rules make it quite clear that the explosion is centered on the model it originates from. If it had hit the wall and the splash had killed model 1 then wouldn't the explosion have to be centered on the wall.....

Ohhh I can quote Matt here and get away with it "Read the rules as written" :twisted: :lol:

I haven't checked all the weapons that use this rule but those I have all use exactly the same words after marking out the size of the explosion.

 

[BuShips]

I don't know if this has already been discussed but if the AT-14 is fired at a vehicle, say a tank, all of the tanks are at least 2" wide so theoretically no infantry models could get within 1" of the target's center-point, right? So then the "one-inch rule" mentioned above would only be effective against APCs/AFVs that were less than 2" wide?

The only allowance to infantry splash damage that I can think of is Matt's unofficial S&P article about infantry transported on tanks.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

The rules sheet that a model has to either be entirely within cover or have it between it and the firing model. In this ccase the target hit by the explosive round is the "firer"

 

[xbowmen]

Hmmmm Lets say I have a target that is behind a low wall. I place my FZ marker just behind the target model which is just behine the wall .Since the arc or AOE cover the target but does not go beyond the wall, the target does not get cover even though the wall is in between the firer and the target? right?
Den :roll:

Actually you can't place your FP behind the wall (unless you allow them to be placed in mid air, which we don't allow unless you are saying you are marking the point just outside a window on the nth floor) as you can't get LOS to the FP.

However using your example (but with a FP on or in front of the wall) and your grenade hits one of 3 models behind the wall, then if the other 2 models are in the blast radius then they can't claim cover or obscurement from the wall as the explosion happens on the same side of the wall as them.

Hope that clears it up

You can never place a FP beyond a wall or cover? Where in the rules do you see that? And those units that have a grenade lanchers, can they place their FP beyond the wall. If so, all those behind the wall get no cover right?

 

[The Old Soldier]

I never seen so much mucking up a simple thing in my time. Well, yes I have,.... but I degress :lol:

You can Place the FZ anywhere you can gain LOS to. The first model that recieves DD from the unit firing has the burst radius around it of 1" in the case of a underslung. Figure it out from there folks.. :wink:

 

[Qapla]

The only allowance to infantry splash damage that I can think of is Matt's unofficial S&P article about infantry transported on tanks.

Where was this at?

 

[Bondarus]

It was in an 'issue' of signs and portents, probably about three or four months ago.

You can still download it. Just go to the signs and portents bit of this website or follow the link

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=13

 

[cordas]

You can never place a FP beyond a wall or cover? Where in the rules do you see that? And those units that have a grenade lanchers, can they place their FP beyond the wall. If so, all those behind the wall get no cover right?

Errr the bit where it says that the firing model MUST have LOS to the FP. If the FP is on the otherside of a wall or other cover then how can you get LOS to it? Page 15 last sentance of the 2nd last paragraph and last paragragh, last sentance.

Firing models must also be able to trace Line of Sight to the center of what is called the FireZone.

All models in the unit must use the same fire zone - any model that cannot draw Line of Sight to the center of the fire zone may not join in on the attack,