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Query: Weapons!
- Thread starter Nagisawa
- Start date
If you want to incorporate things from the book series, the Broadsword, Quarterstaff and Spear are two-handed weapons, which means that you can't use a Shield with them. Otherwise, a Dagger is assumed to do the amount of damage as a Broadsword. It's a bit absurd, but there you go.
The only real reason to bother about types of Weapons is the Weaponskill Kai Discipline or if a certain Weapon is magical. If you want to be able to do anything other than flee or die against Helghasts, for example, you need a magical weapon. And if a magical Quarterstaff is the only one available, you have to wield that, Shield use or not.
The only real reason to bother about types of Weapons is the Weaponskill Kai Discipline or if a certain Weapon is magical. If you want to be able to do anything other than flee or die against Helghasts, for example, you need a magical weapon. And if a magical Quarterstaff is the only one available, you have to wield that, Shield use or not.
Zipp Dementia
Mongoose
As a GM, though, you also have every right to give penalties or bonuses for certain weapons in certain situations. For instance, a dagger may take penalty against a creature with long reach or a spear. An Axe or crushing weapon may help against a heavily armoured opponent.
I'm working on Knife Rules, basic rundown is a Normal Knife doesn't take up a Weapon slot but only counts as an Improvised Weapon (-2 CS), Knives can be thrown (at -2CS), A Brace of Knifes (up to six per Brace) count as one weapon slot allowing you to throw a Knife/Round without having to Re-Equip. Knives are covered under the Dagger Weaponskill and you can throw two knives per round if you have Weaponskill: Dagger.
Fighting Knives, well their treated just as Daggers, before anyone chimes in I know Daggers and Fighting Knives are different in their capabilities and application, but I've lumped them together for simplicities sake since Xiphos, Gladius and Kodachi style swords seam to be grouped in with Arming Swords, Small Swords and such
Fighting Knives, well their treated just as Daggers, before anyone chimes in I know Daggers and Fighting Knives are different in their capabilities and application, but I've lumped them together for simplicities sake since Xiphos, Gladius and Kodachi style swords seam to be grouped in with Arming Swords, Small Swords and such
SnowShadow
Mongoose
Nagisawa said:Ah, so no actual damage effect. it's nothing more than flavour.
Hmm, cuz I was wondering how to implement two weapon fighting as a sort of spin off idea.
Oh well.
My ideas ideas for dual-wielding here. Figured Two Handed Weapons needed some advantages too soooo One Handed weapons used in each hand affects CS and Two Handed Weapons used defensively/beserk affect EP mainly. Halfway down 9 - combat rules ideas.
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=42027
Basically Primary Hand = normal, Off Hand (only Supreme Master has no Off Hand) is average of Skill + Weapon. I.e. Off hand Normal Sword + Weaponskill = +1CS, Weaponmastery +2CS, Grand Weaponmastery +3 CS. Biggest Bonus determines Primary Hand.
Lone Wolf armed with Sommerswerd +8CS and Skarn Ska +5CS, GW in Sword + 5 CS. So Primary Hand +13CS, Off Hand +5CS (Skarn Ska + GW Sword divide by two) for a +18CS bonus not including other equipment. It gets complicated when using one magical and one normal weapon vs Helghast. I've put ideas for that or you could just rule you can't dual wield a weapon that cannot harm your foe.
Basically dual wielding a normal weapon you are skilled in is slightly worse than a shield to a Kai Lord, the same as a shield to a Kai Master and better than a shield to a Grand Master.
I was thinking something like Dual Wielding (Off hand weapon must be smaller than the main hand) gives either a +1 CS or ES, depending on whether or not you're using it defensively, or offensively.
A two handed weapon (Which I thank you for point it out) would give a +2 CS, as it's all about power and leverage for damage.
A couple of thoughts.
A two handed weapon (Which I thank you for point it out) would give a +2 CS, as it's all about power and leverage for damage.
A couple of thoughts.
SnowShadow
Mongoose
There has to be some kind of balance for using 2 handed weapons. If you can't use a shield and you can get lots of CS bonuses for dual wielding, not to mention the -3CS penalty for using 2 handed weapons 1 handed, why would anyone in their right mind pay so much for a broadsword that is 'worse' than having a dagger in each hand / dagger and shield?
Bk 12 "68" gives a -2CS penalty if you don't use a two handed weapon stuck on a ladder due to reach. Bk 10 "304" you can't even use a 2 handed weapon at all fighting a lapillibore halfway up a gorge cliff face. Bk13 clinging to a drawbridge -5CS/-3CS extra if you have a 2 handed weapon.
That's why I thought dual wielding should affect CS primarily, which in turn affects EP. Whereas Two Handed Weapons I felt should affect EP/damage - either Beserking for extra damage or defending for reduced damage. There should be different advantages to both otherwise everyone will dual wield and no-one will carry spears, staves, broadswords.
Bk 12 "68" gives a -2CS penalty if you don't use a two handed weapon stuck on a ladder due to reach. Bk 10 "304" you can't even use a 2 handed weapon at all fighting a lapillibore halfway up a gorge cliff face. Bk13 clinging to a drawbridge -5CS/-3CS extra if you have a 2 handed weapon.
That's why I thought dual wielding should affect CS primarily, which in turn affects EP. Whereas Two Handed Weapons I felt should affect EP/damage - either Beserking for extra damage or defending for reduced damage. There should be different advantages to both otherwise everyone will dual wield and no-one will carry spears, staves, broadswords.
Remember that +2CS increased your damage output and alot of the time reduces the damage you take.
Instead of playing with CS and EP bonuses (or those alone), perhaps play with one or other of those axis for each weapon.
A +1 damage bonus = +2CS without the defensive component
A -1 damage reduction is a much more reliable defensive reduction than a +2CS bonus, but removes the offensive component.
You can therefore have a workspace where +1 damage reduction using an offhand weapon can be a good trade off instead of of the +2CS from the shield, and still leaves tactical times when the shield is better.
And a +2 damage bonus but +1 to LW damage means you effectively get the benefit of +4CS on damage, but for the cost of a worse than -2CS on LW damage.
Seems to me that working on some of these sub-axis for fighting styles or even figuring out a way for each weapon to have a small flavour like this would be the way to go.
Also remember for fighting styles, that once LW reaches a certain Magnakai rank in Weaponmastery, he gets to weild two handed weapons one handed. So any shield/off hand balance you try against two handed weapons goes out the window.
Instead of playing with CS and EP bonuses (or those alone), perhaps play with one or other of those axis for each weapon.
A +1 damage bonus = +2CS without the defensive component
A -1 damage reduction is a much more reliable defensive reduction than a +2CS bonus, but removes the offensive component.
You can therefore have a workspace where +1 damage reduction using an offhand weapon can be a good trade off instead of of the +2CS from the shield, and still leaves tactical times when the shield is better.
And a +2 damage bonus but +1 to LW damage means you effectively get the benefit of +4CS on damage, but for the cost of a worse than -2CS on LW damage.
Seems to me that working on some of these sub-axis for fighting styles or even figuring out a way for each weapon to have a small flavour like this would be the way to go.
Also remember for fighting styles, that once LW reaches a certain Magnakai rank in Weaponmastery, he gets to weild two handed weapons one handed. So any shield/off hand balance you try against two handed weapons goes out the window.
I forget how high the rank is, but if you do make individual weapons unique, remember that a non-magical metal weapon gets to inflict 1 EP more damage under some spell or weaponmastery / grand weaponmastery talent.
Edit: And apologies SS, I realised you mentioned fighting defensively/aggressively, although if it's with the same weapon and just two options, then it's not spreading out the benefits to other weapons.
Edit: And apologies SS, I realised you mentioned fighting defensively/aggressively, although if it's with the same weapon and just two options, then it's not spreading out the benefits to other weapons.
SnowShadow
Mongoose
Beserk & Defend are available with two handed weapons only (whether wielded 1 handed/Sun Knight or two handed everyone else). Sun Lord is the +1EP damage Flaming Metal Weapons.
Rethought 2 handed weapons (which also need to be equally desirable if you have really cool dual wielding rules):
Defend - Combat generally longer but 'safer' for you. Use if Healing limited and/or no time limit for the fight.
Bonus: You receive half Damage AND ignore Damage/K on '1'.
Penalty: You inflict 1EP less (E -1EP remains E-1EP though) AND inflict no damage at all on '0'. You cannot claim a Shield bonus (but you can use one with two handed Weapons 'normally').
Beserk - Combat generally quicker but riskier for you. Use if plenty of Healing available and/or you need to finish the fight quickly.
Bonus: You inflict +50% Damage AND do Double Damage on '0'.
Penalty: You receive 1EP Damage extra (but Self -0EP = -0EP) AND recieve Double Damage on '1'. You cannot claim a Shield bonus (but you can use one with two handed Weapons 'normally').
There have to be benefits and penalties to all different weapon and fighting styles. For example, I put, in the "Mongoose vs original equipment" forum sticky, rules for Stun (E -CS) where you need a non-edged weapon but you can use an edged weapon if you have a shield. The problem is when you look at costs why would anyone pay for a whopping broadsword when 2 daggers are so much cheaper and can have extra attacks, CS, etc. Mind you a 2GC Dagger can have a +7CS bonus to a Kai Master Superior going from Unarmed -4CS to Weaponmastery/Dagger +3CS!
I was toying with the idea of just allowing dual wielding to give the full CS bonus but be tiring/-EP per round but would have to be expensive: After all Psi-Surge to a Kai Master up to Scion-Kai is +4CS but -2EP EACH round. Any new rules we come up with must not interfere with this/give a 'better' bonus otherwise no Kai will be using Psi-Surge in combat which is unrealistic. It's hard enough when you really want to use your psychic powers on an immune foe.
Paido has Mystic Manouvre Twin Blades option in Bk 8 Mini Adventure - 3 times per adventure he can make a second attack if he has a knife/similar - assume the damage the enemy inflicts is ignored else it is not much of an advantage (unless time limit to fight).
Rethought 2 handed weapons (which also need to be equally desirable if you have really cool dual wielding rules):
Defend - Combat generally longer but 'safer' for you. Use if Healing limited and/or no time limit for the fight.
Bonus: You receive half Damage AND ignore Damage/K on '1'.
Penalty: You inflict 1EP less (E -1EP remains E-1EP though) AND inflict no damage at all on '0'. You cannot claim a Shield bonus (but you can use one with two handed Weapons 'normally').
Beserk - Combat generally quicker but riskier for you. Use if plenty of Healing available and/or you need to finish the fight quickly.
Bonus: You inflict +50% Damage AND do Double Damage on '0'.
Penalty: You receive 1EP Damage extra (but Self -0EP = -0EP) AND recieve Double Damage on '1'. You cannot claim a Shield bonus (but you can use one with two handed Weapons 'normally').
There have to be benefits and penalties to all different weapon and fighting styles. For example, I put, in the "Mongoose vs original equipment" forum sticky, rules for Stun (E -CS) where you need a non-edged weapon but you can use an edged weapon if you have a shield. The problem is when you look at costs why would anyone pay for a whopping broadsword when 2 daggers are so much cheaper and can have extra attacks, CS, etc. Mind you a 2GC Dagger can have a +7CS bonus to a Kai Master Superior going from Unarmed -4CS to Weaponmastery/Dagger +3CS!
I was toying with the idea of just allowing dual wielding to give the full CS bonus but be tiring/-EP per round but would have to be expensive: After all Psi-Surge to a Kai Master up to Scion-Kai is +4CS but -2EP EACH round. Any new rules we come up with must not interfere with this/give a 'better' bonus otherwise no Kai will be using Psi-Surge in combat which is unrealistic. It's hard enough when you really want to use your psychic powers on an immune foe.
Paido has Mystic Manouvre Twin Blades option in Bk 8 Mini Adventure - 3 times per adventure he can make a second attack if he has a knife/similar - assume the damage the enemy inflicts is ignored else it is not much of an advantage (unless time limit to fight).
SnowShadow
Mongoose
Dual Wielding. Just had an idea. Calculate Combat Ratio as normal for the primary weapon and do the combat round as normal. You must then decide if you want to ignore the roll and use your secondary weapon (which may give a worse CR!) - if you re-roll you must abide by the new result.
E.g. A Kai Lord (Weaponskill +2CS Sword) is armed with a Durenese Sword +1CS and a Normal Dagger (+0CS). The Sword Combat Ratio is +3, the Dagger +0. Using the Sword the Kai picks a 2 (E -6EP, Self -3EP), they choose the re-roll by dual wilding the Dagger, ignoring this result, and pick a 7 on the +0 table (E- 9EP, Self -1EP) but if they had picked 1 it would be worse (E -3EP, Self -5EP).
What do you guys think? Is it too simple?
Seems easier than my other dual wielding rules (average Skill & Weapon CS in off hand) and covers the magical and non-magical dual wield vs Helghast problem - you can't use the normal weapon!
E.g. A Kai Lord (Weaponskill +2CS Sword) is armed with a Durenese Sword +1CS and a Normal Dagger (+0CS). The Sword Combat Ratio is +3, the Dagger +0. Using the Sword the Kai picks a 2 (E -6EP, Self -3EP), they choose the re-roll by dual wilding the Dagger, ignoring this result, and pick a 7 on the +0 table (E- 9EP, Self -1EP) but if they had picked 1 it would be worse (E -3EP, Self -5EP).
What do you guys think? Is it too simple?
Seems easier than my other dual wielding rules (average Skill & Weapon CS in off hand) and covers the magical and non-magical dual wield vs Helghast problem - you can't use the normal weapon!
Radioactive Ape Colin
Mongoose
Simpler is better, imo. I'd go with one of the following:
a) The re-roll option (maybe limiting it to 3/day ala the Twin Blades rules).
b) Just give a +1 CS bonus (so it's better than using a single 1-handed weapon on its own, but not as effective as a shield-and-weapon combo, which is true; sword-and-board needs to be encouraged, imo).
c) Just file the name off the Mystic Manouvre Twin Blades and use that.
That's just my gut instinct though; I'll give it some thought when I finish my latest book.
Colin
a) The re-roll option (maybe limiting it to 3/day ala the Twin Blades rules).
b) Just give a +1 CS bonus (so it's better than using a single 1-handed weapon on its own, but not as effective as a shield-and-weapon combo, which is true; sword-and-board needs to be encouraged, imo).
c) Just file the name off the Mystic Manouvre Twin Blades and use that.
That's just my gut instinct though; I'll give it some thought when I finish my latest book.
Colin
SnowShadow
Mongoose
Dual wield/reroll. Forgot to put the Combat Ratio for the Primary Weapon must be equal or greater than the secondary/off hand weapon. Plus the secondary attack must be a normal attack not Stun, etc. even if the first was.
It occurs to me a Kai with the Sommerswerd +8CS is unlikely to dual wield it with any normal weapon - unless they were somehow avoiding a K result on -11 CR for both weapons. However Sommerswerd is a big enough advantage itself, the greater the difference beween the two weapons the more likely a shield would be used in favour.
Whatever system is used, for every 10 'average' Kai Lords only 2 will be Weaponskilled in Sword and the rest in each of the available Melee weapons and therefore be using them, so whatever advantage dual wielding/2 handed skill/weapon & shield gives there should be plenty of warriors who are torn betwen which is 'best'. Like Psi-Surge +4CS vs Chaos Master but -2EP each round, he's immune to Mindblast can I afford to use it but can I afford not to....?
It occurs to me a Kai with the Sommerswerd +8CS is unlikely to dual wield it with any normal weapon - unless they were somehow avoiding a K result on -11 CR for both weapons. However Sommerswerd is a big enough advantage itself, the greater the difference beween the two weapons the more likely a shield would be used in favour.
Whatever system is used, for every 10 'average' Kai Lords only 2 will be Weaponskilled in Sword and the rest in each of the available Melee weapons and therefore be using them, so whatever advantage dual wielding/2 handed skill/weapon & shield gives there should be plenty of warriors who are torn betwen which is 'best'. Like Psi-Surge +4CS vs Chaos Master but -2EP each round, he's immune to Mindblast can I afford to use it but can I afford not to....?
SnowShadow
Mongoose
Other thoughts on Dual Wield...
How to handle the CS bonus of powerful weapons or high level skill if they both count for both hands?
For example, a Scion-Kai with Weaponmastery Dagger gets +4CS but his fellow Kai with Psi-Surge also gets +4CS but at -2EP/Round, not so great unless they are captured and weapons taken. What happens if you get your Weaponmastery bonus with both weapons? Well in the above example the first Kai only has to spend a couple of Crowns to buy another Dagger giving him +8CS if dual wielded! No-one would want Psi-Surge until Archmaster!
Another example, Bk 28 Grand Master (for arguments sake WITHOUT Grand Weaponmastery so we don't get confused on slots/Sun Knight using one handed two handed weapons, etc.). Their Kai Weapon is a Broadsword (30% chance). They pick up Sunderer, +5CS Dwarf Battle Axe, and Andarin Warhammer +5CS also. Assuming the Battle Axe is one handed, and Joe does not say otherwise, dual wielding gives +10CS whereas th 'measly' Kai Broadsword is just +5CS.
On the subject of this why is everyone saying you cannot use a Shield with a Broadsword, etc.? I decided with Beserk/Defend you couldn't because you need greater flexibility but it does not say anywhere you cannot use one with a two handed weapon in normal combat. I think we all play various games systems and it is easy to assume what is true for one or two is true for all - where does it officially say different? Keep shields for normal two handed weapon use otherwise they'll be even less reason to use them... unless you can double your Weaponskill bonus, etc. with two handed weapons used two handed and claim your Weaponskill bonus for each weapon when dual wielded... (still does not solve the 2 +5CS one handed swords vs 1 +5CS Broadsword dilemma).
Okay, how about -
2 Handed Weapon (beserk) - Weaponskill, Mastery, etc. bonus DOUBLED (concentration & flexibility required = no psychic attacks/shield).
1 Handed Weapon in each hand (concentration & flexibility = no psychic attacks/no shield) - Claim Weaponmastery bonus + Weapon bonus for Primary Weapon and averaged weaponmastery bonus + weapon bonus for offhand weapon.
So anyone without Weaponmastery will want a normal shield still whereas those more skilled would want to dual wield or use two handed weapons unless they have a magic shield, seems reasonable.
How to handle the CS bonus of powerful weapons or high level skill if they both count for both hands?
For example, a Scion-Kai with Weaponmastery Dagger gets +4CS but his fellow Kai with Psi-Surge also gets +4CS but at -2EP/Round, not so great unless they are captured and weapons taken. What happens if you get your Weaponmastery bonus with both weapons? Well in the above example the first Kai only has to spend a couple of Crowns to buy another Dagger giving him +8CS if dual wielded! No-one would want Psi-Surge until Archmaster!
Another example, Bk 28 Grand Master (for arguments sake WITHOUT Grand Weaponmastery so we don't get confused on slots/Sun Knight using one handed two handed weapons, etc.). Their Kai Weapon is a Broadsword (30% chance). They pick up Sunderer, +5CS Dwarf Battle Axe, and Andarin Warhammer +5CS also. Assuming the Battle Axe is one handed, and Joe does not say otherwise, dual wielding gives +10CS whereas th 'measly' Kai Broadsword is just +5CS.
On the subject of this why is everyone saying you cannot use a Shield with a Broadsword, etc.? I decided with Beserk/Defend you couldn't because you need greater flexibility but it does not say anywhere you cannot use one with a two handed weapon in normal combat. I think we all play various games systems and it is easy to assume what is true for one or two is true for all - where does it officially say different? Keep shields for normal two handed weapon use otherwise they'll be even less reason to use them... unless you can double your Weaponskill bonus, etc. with two handed weapons used two handed and claim your Weaponskill bonus for each weapon when dual wielded... (still does not solve the 2 +5CS one handed swords vs 1 +5CS Broadsword dilemma).
Okay, how about -
2 Handed Weapon (beserk) - Weaponskill, Mastery, etc. bonus DOUBLED (concentration & flexibility required = no psychic attacks/shield).
1 Handed Weapon in each hand (concentration & flexibility = no psychic attacks/no shield) - Claim Weaponmastery bonus + Weapon bonus for Primary Weapon and averaged weaponmastery bonus + weapon bonus for offhand weapon.
So anyone without Weaponmastery will want a normal shield still whereas those more skilled would want to dual wield or use two handed weapons unless they have a magic shield, seems reasonable.
Radioactive Ape Colin said:Simpler is better, imo. I'd go with one of the following:
a) The re-roll option (maybe limiting it to 3/day ala the Twin Blades rules).
b) Just give a +1 CS bonus (so it's better than using a single 1-handed weapon on its own, but not as effective as a shield-and-weapon combo, which is true; sword-and-board needs to be encouraged, imo).
c) Just file the name off the Mystic Manouvre Twin Blades and use that.
That's just my gut instinct though; I'll give it some thought when I finish my latest book.
Colin
I like B best. It's quick and it's simple.
And frankly, I disregard the 'You can only carry 2 weapons' rule for the most part. You can actually carry a few daggers/knives as WELL as a blade or two. Most fantasy adventurer art tends to do it anyway...
SnowShadow
Mongoose
Nagisawa said:And frankly, I disregard the 'You can only carry 2 weapons' rule for the most part. You can actually carry a few daggers/knives as WELL as a blade or two. Most fantasy adventurer art tends to do it anyway...
I came up with a Sheath (Special Item) that allows a Weapon to be carried as a Special Item, the Two Weapons rule comes from the original flight from the dark where LW carries Weapons in his hands. I also rule that one haded weapons take up a backpack space/two handed = 2 spaces, (Round Zero action/retieved like a potion again see the 'Mongoose vs original' sticky for what you can do instead of drinking a potion before combat).
Definately simple is best.
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