Qualifying differences between Ships: Standard designs vs New Designs?

Limpin Legin

Cosmic Mongoose
Little bit perplexed by the rules in High Guard concerning Standard Designs vs New Designs (pg 9).

Designed centuries ago: It says some ship designs have been used for centuries. Which ones are being referred to? No mention anywhere as when on a timeline ships were first built? Traveller lore just mentions when each race discovered FTL tech, but not (as far as I know) when ships were created.
Can I therefore assume all ships created in Mongoose sourcebooks are all centuries old? And anything custom that a player or referee wants to create is brand new and first of it's kind?

Modular design: Why does the modular design rule only apply to "very large ships"? What is stopping a Shuttle or Merchant Trader ship from being built modularly? You could say a tiny Integrated Circuit or modern MDF furniture or a modellers "Airfix" kit are examples of modular design, without particularly being "very large" in any way. So I don't understand why have this rule.
 
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Azhantis are pretty detailed.

I would guess you have to figure out from the accompanying narrative how old the design is, and if it is, there is going to be drift.

Modular exception makes no sense, except preventing characters from ordering a fresh freetrader, and having it delivered the next day.
 
Little bit perplexed by the rules in High Guard concerning Standard Designs vs New Designs (pg 9).
Don't take it too seriously, it's just fluff...


Designed centuries ago: It says some ship designs have been used for centuries. Which ones are being referred to? No mention anywhere as when on a timeline ships were first built? Traveller lore just mentions when each race discovered FTL tech, but not (as far as I know) when ships were created.
Can I therefore assume all ships created in Mongoose sourcebooks are all centuries old? And anything custom that a player or referee wants to create is brand new and first of it's kind?
The centuries old are the Free Trader, the Scout, and some others with specific histories. By remarkable coincidence it seems to be mostly the commonly used ships from LBB2 in 1977...

You, as Referee, decides what is a Standard Design. Generally anything built in bulk is a standard design. The unique ship the players dream up is not a standard design.


Modular design: Why does the modular design rule only apply to "very large ships"? What is stopping a Shuttle or Merchant Trader ship from being built modularly? You could say a tiny Integrated Circuit or modern MDF furniture or a modellers "Airfix" kit are examples of modular design, without particularly being "very large" in any way. So I don't understand why have this rule.
They are just trying to avoid giving a specific build time for ships. The guideline of one day per MCr breaks down for small or large ships.

They are presumably not saying a 50000 Dt ship takes much less time to build than a 45000 Dt ship.

It boils down to: Small ships takes a few months to build, large ships takes a few years to build. The Referee has the final word.
 
"Standard Designs" are poorly explained, but it is actually simple. "Standard Designs" are ships you do not have to pay a naval architect to design. The designs were already completed. That extra 10% cost is the naval architect's fees.
 
"Standard Designs" are poorly explained, but it is actually simple. "Standard Designs" are ships you do not have to pay a naval architect to design. The designs were already completed. That extra 10% cost is the naval architect's fees.
This is indeed very loose, and intentionally so. Basically, if you have a ship that is really widespread in use beyond a single user (company or military), then you might consider the discount.

Just my take, but I lean towards not applying it unless something is really widespread.
 
This is indeed very loose, and intentionally so. Basically, if you have a ship that is really widespread in use beyond a single user (company or military), then you might consider the discount.

Just my take, but I lean towards not applying it unless something is really widespread.
How much does a naval architect cost to design a ship? How much cheaper is the ship to build if the design is already complete? To Me, this makes the most sense as an explanation and it was in one of the books, but I have no idea which book or even which edition that I read it in.

As a further thought, ships that are mass produced, like cars on an assembly line would get this discount as well, but I am aware of nowhere in Traveller does it describe ships being built on an assembly line.
 
Way back in LBB, there were certain "standard" hulls with specific sized engine compartments and a few other things pre-defined. But those actual rules went away long, long ago. There's no mechanical definition of standard design anymore. However, no one wanted to remove the discount from the long established ships that had it. So "standard design" remained a thing without any specific standards for what it was. :p
 
Traditionally:
LBB2'77, p9:
_ _ Naval Architecture: Should a person desire a starship which is not of standard design, he may approach a naval architect, there generally being a firm providing such a service wherever a shipyard exists. For a fee, the naval architect will produce the detailed plans and specifications necessary to construct a starship on a custom basis. This preparation usually takes about four weeks (two weeks for an additional overtime charge of 50%) at a cost of 1% of the final cash price of the ship.
_ _ In game terms, a player may purchase a standard design ship, or he may wish to design his own to more fully fit his needs, using these rules to determine what is possible and how much it will cost. When a character has settled on his own desires (generally using the starship design checklist), he must present that checklist to a naval architect who will then produce correct plans and specifications and deliver them upon payment of his fee. Such plans may then be turned over to a shipyard so that construction may begin.
LBB2'77, p9:
_ _ Construction Times: Ship construction requires a relatively long period of time, based primarily on the hull size used. The rule section on hulls indicates the basic time required to construct a ship based on a certain size of hull (ranging from 10 to 36 months). Standard design ships take about one month less than the stated time.
_ _ Costs and Payments: When a ship is ordered, 20% of the base price is required as a down payment, and proper arrangements for bank financing or other payment of the remainder of the price must be made prior to delivery. Most shipyards will insist on full details of such plans before even beginning construction, and may insist on some form of guarantee of full payment if it is to be made in cash.
_ _ The actual cash price of a ship is computed from the sum of the costs of its components. Standard design ships are granted a 10% reduction in price because of their ease of construction and the familiarity of the yard with such work, and this reduction is contained in the price stated for each in the standard ship rules section.

Naval architect's fee is 1%.
"Standard" designs are cheaper and faster to build.

By TCS every ship after the first is allowed the standard discount if you order several.
 
Traditionally:



Naval architect's fee is 1%.
"Standard" designs are cheaper and faster to build.

By TCS every ship after the first is allowed the standard discount if you order several.
I love your references! Nice work! I stand corrected on the price of the naval architect.

I think the "Standard Ship Discount" needs to be fixed. A Free Trader might be a Standard Ship in the Imperium, but not with the K'kree or the Hivers or even the Aslan. A Planet-class Heavy Cruiser gets the discount, but what if you have it built in Zhodani Space?

The only shipyards that would get that discount would be the ones that specialize in building those exact ships. Otherwise, it is basically handwavium and should be scrapped completely. Just My 2 cents.
 
In theory, if you use alphabet drives, they should be standard and thus qualify for a discount.
No, they are standard components, that does not make the ship standard any more than using a standard hull from LBB2.

The entire design has to be standardised, hull and drives as a combination:
CT TCS, p19:
_ _ 2. Class Variations. A basic ship of class may be designed and supported by a design worksheet. Each actual ship is then supported by that worksheet and by a specific supplemental worksheet that identifies changes in the design of other ships in the class. In order to be considered part of the same class, subsequent ships may differ from the first ship in only a few limited ways. There may be no changes in power plant, maneuver drive, jump drive, armor, or hull configuration. There may be no change in number or size of bays, although their contents may be altered. The size of the spinal mount and the number and sizes of launch facilities may not be increased, although they may be decreased. Any other ship components may be changed as desired. All differences from the design of the first ship of the class must be noted on the specific supporting worksheets.
The number of staterooms, cargo holds, etc are immaterial. Basically the hull and drives together are the class.


MgT1 agrees:
MgT1 TCS, p8:
In order to remain part of the same class of vessel while creating a new batch of vessels, there are only a limited number of ways in which the subsequent vessels can differ from the original. The power plant, manoeuvre drive, jump drive, armour and hull configuration may not change. There may be no change in the number or size of bays, although a new batch may change their contents. The size of a spinal mount and launch facilities (such as launch tubes) may not increase but they can be decreased. Any other components such as fuel tankage, crew quarters and command facilities may be modified.
 
"Standard Designs" are poorly explained, but it is actually simple. "Standard Designs" are ships you do not have to pay a naval architect to design. The designs were already completed. That extra 10% cost is the naval architect's fees.
Well, while that makes sense, MgT 2e HG says :
Some ship designs have been used for centuries and have become standard across the stars. Plans for such spacecraft are freely available and components can be purchased in bulk by shipyards, reducing the cost of the ship's construction by 10%. ...

Which isn't exactly saying the same as " **Standard Designs** are ships you do not have to pay a naval architect ..." because the MgT 2e HG quote includes the stipulation that it is necessary that they have been built over the centuries.

Comparing the two statements (yours and MgT 2e HG), I would say yours is more correct. MgT 2e HG definition seems more fitting in describing a **Classic Design** rather than a mere **Standard Design**. **Classic Designs** do generally evolve out of being built/used over decades and centuries, whereas **Standard Designs** are merely ascribed to the ability of using the same blueprint or plan for building more ships to the same specification. Of course, optional features may be added to a Standard Design (even if the rules seem to miss that point).

While it is puzzling how the stipulation of "ship designs that have been used for centuries ..." crept into the equation, either quote would seem to infer that **Standard Designs** refers to any design published by Mongoose or previous versions of Traveller, simply because that plan or blueprint has already been created and published. And we assume that they were created centuries ago?

Does that sound coherently reasonable?
 
No, they are standard components, that does not make the ship standard any more than using a standard hull from LBB2.
Well that is interesting too. You have either got a Standard Ship (with possible optional components and features), or you've got a Customized or Prototype Ship that is cobbled together by using standard components and features. The two are different construction possibilities.
 
Well, while that makes sense, MgT 2e HG says :


Which isn't exactly saying the same as " **Standard Designs** are ships you do not have to pay a naval architect ..." because the MgT 2e HG quote includes the stipulation that it is necessary that they have been built over the centuries.

Comparing the two statements (yours and MgT 2e HG), I would say yours is more correct. MgT 2e HG definition seems more fitting in describing a **Classic Design** rather than a mere **Standard Design**. **Classic Designs** do generally evolve out of being built/used over decades and centuries, whereas **Standard Designs** are merely ascribed to the ability of using the same blueprint or plan for building more ships to the same specification. Of course, optional features may be added to a Standard Design (even if the rules seem to miss that point).

While it is puzzling how the stipulation of "ship designs that have been used for centuries ..." crept into the equation, either quote would seem to infer that **Standard Designs** refers to any design published by Mongoose or previous versions of Traveller, simply because that plan or blueprint has already been created and published. And we assume that they were created centuries ago?

Does that sound coherently reasonable?
I actually don't use the Standard Design discount in My games. Mainly because I don't understand what makes a ship a Standard Design, so I just ignore the whole thing.
 
I tend to apply the Standard Design discount by fiat. Basically, I "determine" (that is, decide off the cuff) roughly how many of that ship design the local shipyard has produced, and apply a discount based on that number.

Shipyard has never produced that design? Not only no discount, but you'll need to pay architect's fees as well.

Shipyard has produced at least one ship of that design - you get a 1% discount (which also affects the building time; not only does the yard crew know how to economize, they all know a few building shortcuts/efficiencies), and you may or may not have to pay an architect. Depends mainly on your interaction with the yard agent - if he likes you, he'll say "We have something on file that looks like it'll do the job." If you've annoyed or upset him, all he has to do is keep quiet...

Shipyard has produced at least ten ships of that design - the discount is 3%, and again you may or may not have to pay for the architect.

Shipyard has produced at least a hundred ships of that design - the discount is 6%, and you'll only have to pay architect's fees if you've really annoyed someone. And if you've annoyed someone that badly, they're just as likely to refuse your business.

Shipyard has produced a thousand or more ships of that design - the full 10% discount applies, and no architect's fees apply. A number of close variants may be offered, with the same discount. Basically, this design has become a local "generic".
 
If in doubt go back to classic Traveller:

"SHIP DESIGN
Most vessels are constructed from standard design plans which use time-tested designs and combinations of features. Shipyards work from these plans which cover every detail of construction and assembly.
Naval Architecture: Small design corporations can produce design plans for any vessel type once given the details of what is desired. The design procedure is followed to determine what is available and allowed, and the results are presented
to the naval architect firm. They produce a detailed set of design plans in about four weeks for a price of 1 % of the final ship cost; they can be hurried to finish the job in two weeks if paid 1.5%. Once the design plans are received, the shipyard may
be commissioned to produce the vessel desired.
Standard Designs: There are a number of standard design plans available; they have been in use for a long time, and are available for a nominal fee (Cr100 for the set). Standard starship plans available are: 100-ton Scout/Courier, 200-ton Free
Trader, 200-ton Yacht, 400-ton Subsidized Merchant, 600-ton Subsidized Liner, 800-ton Mercenary Cruiser, and 400-ton Patrol Cruiser. Standard plans are also available for the following small craft: 20-ton Launch, 30-ton Ship's Boat, 30-ton
Slow Boat, 40-ton Pinnace, 40-ton Slow Pinnace, 50-ton Cutter, 95-ton Shuttle, and 10-ton Fighter. Other standard plans may be available at various localities.

Standard designs are easier to produce; their prices reflect a 10% reduction in normal pricing. The details of the standard designs are shown at the end of this chapter. Standard design vessels are often available used (10 to 40 years old) at reductions in price ranging from 10% to 40%, as indicated by the referee.
Construction Times: Time required for building any vessel depends primarily on the hull. The drive potential table indicates construction time for each tonnage of hull; any hull over the indicated tonnage requires the next higher construction time. The standard hulls table gives shorter construction times for those hulls; they are more familiar to the shipyard and easier to build.
Costs and Payments: A shipyard will insist upon a 20% down payment with the order for the vessel, as well as requiring a demonstration that proper financing is available to cover the balance when due."

If you do not own the CT Facsimile edition go and get it now, it is free in pdf form.

 
That's not how I'd organize it on an interstellar scale.

While individual systems might tolerate, even encourage this boost to the domestic product, then you have Kuat.


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If you do not own the CT Facsimile edition go and get it now, it is free in pdf form.
I have this version and the Mongoose CT version. I prefer the Mongoose one because the three books are separate, thus I can hold several pages open at the same time, plus the text is searchable in MgCT but not in FCT. But yes, free is a bargain if you want to find your way into the game. :)

Didn't think of looking at CT for rules qualification because I assumed Mongoose to be "self contained." Will look again, thanks.
 
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