PSION and new Career term

[Armandrik1]

Hello,
I'm new to the Traveller system. I just finished reading Traveller 2nd Edition.

When a player creates a character starting a Psion career (such as a Psion-Warrior) in Term 1, and during Term 2 they roll for a new psionic talent they don’t already possess on the Service Skills table, they must make a roll to determine if they can learn this talent. The rule is straightforward: if the roll succeeds, they acquire the talent at level 0. However, if they fail, they gain nothing, effectively “losing” an entire term (four years of the character’s life) without any benefit.

This seems harsh compared to other careers, which always guarantee progress in a skill or characteristic. Additionally, in the Institute Testing section, training lasts only four months and allows the character to attempt learning all available talents, with cumulative penalties but multiple chances to succeed.

As a house rule, would it be too generous to allow two or three learning attempts to acquire a new talent when a psionic character transitions to a new term during character creation? This would better reflect the time and effort invested in psionic training (in a 4 years training vs 4 months) while remaining consistent with the idea that talent acquisition isn’t guaranteed.

This question might seem basic, but as I mentioned earlier, I’m just beginning to explore the mechanics of Traveller. I have to admit, it was "love at first sight" for me. I’m eager to dive deeper and dedicate myself to learning and mastering its rules as much as possible.

Thank you for taking the time to shed light on this topic for me.

 

[Saladman]

A psion first "roll(s) to acquire talents when he determines his Psi." So you should have 1 or more Talents already, and you're working around those. Then you can pick a career assignment that best matches those, so rolling on your Assignment table is pretty safe even if you get a Talent result. Then you can take a look at the learning DMs for talents (which go as high as +4) and decide if you like your odds if you get something you don't already have and decide whether to roll on Service Skills at all.

Practically speaking then a psion should be rolling mostly on their Assignment table rather than Service Skills. Or secondarily on Personal Development or perhaps Advanced Education. And they have the option of taking their first, guaranteed roll in a term on a safer table, and gambling on Service Skills only if they get their second roll from promotion.

In short, the whole thing hangs together better than it appears. Your fix isn't exactly game breaking either, but it seems to me to be unnecessary.

An alternate house rule might be that a failed talent acquisition roll still grants a single power out of a Talent. So you get a consolation prize, but the roll is still meaningful.

...better reflect the time and effort invested in psionic training (in a 4 years training vs 4 months)...

You're applying simulationist logic to something that's not simulationist at all, it's a game balance factor. Think of academy testing as the equivalent of first career term basic training, i.e. something you get the full benefit from only once.

 

[agentwigggles]

There are various instance in life pathwhere you can roll get nothing.
Like if you have all the skills for basic training, you get nothing. If a rank bonus skill, you already have it at 1 or higher, you get nothing. Events, where you roll you can get nothing. If you get roll a skill, and you're at the skill cieling, you get nothing. Then there are the times where you get sent to Prison.

For this in particular you know you'll have a -5 or -6, and then get pickachu face when you dont fail out. Thats part of system mastery.
If you were planning on doing multiple rounds in the psionic career, then your best bet would to have used your six chances, to go for the talents in that assigment.

This is a none obvious part of it, but you get six rolls to learn talents, each roll is a accumulating DM-1. You can try for each talent in any order, and you try for each talent as much as you like, until you run out of rolls or get it.

I dont think there anything particularly wrong with going with low odds of getting a new talent. There are better options. Probaly the best option is Person Dev to get your Psi stat raised

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Guys, WHERE (as in book and page number) are you all finding anything that says you have to roll on the Psionic Training table when you are awarded a Talent from the Psion service skill table?

The Psionic Training table is a sub-section of Institute Testing and happens as part of that step. per Core22 p228 "Training requires four months of work and costs Cr100000. As part of training, the Traveller may attempt to learn any of the common psionic talents on the Psionic Training table by making a PSI check."

4 months! and you get what you get from the training table subject to learning DM's... and in that 4 months could be multiple talents.

If you are taking a career as Psion and you are rolling Service Skills for a talent you are working on for 4 years... YOU JUST GET IT. LOL (just like any other skill)

If I am wrong, quote the rule if there is one. Change my mind.

 

[Saladman]

From 2016 but I'm told it works the same, under "Using the Psion Career:"

When rolling on the service skills table, if the Psion rolls the skill for a talent he does not yet possess, he may make another roll to acquire that talent.

Pretty clear.

This apparently aggravating but pretty clear sentence immediately follows after

The Psion must still roll to acquire talents when he determines his PSI.

Still pretty clear, except "must" is an odd choice of words, it could say "gets to." In other words, anyone in a psion career at all has already had a crack at potentially all major talents, in a way that other careers only get for first term basic training. In other words they've already had a freebie (probably), but you're looking at a possible take-away in isolation from the freebie.

If you are taking a career as Psion and you are rolling Service Skills for a talent you are working on for 4 years...

As above, if you're worried about that, just roll on Assignment or Personal Development and you'll be fine.

In fact, I'm just now noticing, if you read the first sentence I quoted literally, Talent results on Assignment tables don't have to check the way you normally do.

Change my mind.

Don't particularly expect to. It sounds like you're reasoning backwards from how you want things to work, without cracking open the book. But this may help anyone else looking.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Don't particularly expect to. It sounds like you're reasoning backwards from how you want things to work, without cracking open the book. But this may help anyone else looking.

Well, you didn't change my mind...
but someone else did in another thread by citing chapter and verse. specifically; Core22 P229.

Believe it or not I did crack open the book, Mr. Smarty-Pants, but I have noticed I have a tendency to not read the big blue pop-out bubbles of print in which is located the quote about only getting the chance to re-roll for any new talents. Had it been in the main text, I might not have missed it.

So yeah, mind changed and... whoopsies.

Now, there is another reason I did not pay much attention to this. I have actually never rolled up a Psion from the Psion career at the back of Core. My two Psions created have been Zhodani and Droyne. Now that I am looking for it, I see this limit to talents printed in the Zhodani Traveller's creation description Aliens 1 (again whoopsies) , but it does not seem present in the Droyne Traveller's creation description in Aliens 2. Though I doubt this was intentional, still one could say that the Droyne do not need to go back to the Talent Acquisition roll because psionics is more prevalent in among their species... some referees might call that claim weak sauce though.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I guess I should reiterate that the Psion:
1} Goes through standard testing, and gets whatever talents they manage to roll for;
2} Goes through Term 1 Basic training, and automatically acquires skill/0 for all skills & Talents in their Specialty without needing to roll;
3} May gain or increase Any Talent without need for rolling at certain ranks.

Needing to roll for Talents from the Service Skills table is not too bad.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

I guess I should reiterate that the Psion:
1} Goes through standard testing, and gets whatever talents they manage to roll for;
2} Goes through Term 1 Basic training, and automatically acquires skill/0 for all skills & Talents in their Specialty without needing to roll;
3} May gain or increase Any Talent without need for rolling at certain ranks.

Needing to roll for Talents from the Service Skills table is not too bad.

Wait, that's right. All 5 Talents are part of basic training received at level 0, so if you roll again off of that table, you get your levels without having to roll to acquire the level. So why would a psion who started as a psion ever need to roll to acquire talents as in initial testing? At level 0, they have the talent and further rolls off of service give you levels, correct?

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Wait, that's right. All 5 Talents are part of basic training received at level 0, so if you roll again off of that table, you get your levels without having to roll to acquire the level. So why would a psion who started as a psion ever need to roll to acquire talents as in initial testing? At level 0, they have the talent and further rolls off of service give you levels, correct?

Oops, disregard this. I remembered the bit about how your Basic Training for Psion does not come from Service but from your specialty. I also saw JL Brown's post about how the re-roll requirement specifically applies to the Service table and not just every table, or event for that matter!

 

[Jame Rowe]

On a side note.
I wonder how common psionic ability is among the Vilani.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

On a side note.
I wonder how common psionic ability is among the Vilani.

Same potential among all humaniti. The difference is in how trained they are. Vilani, not that much.

 

[ottarrus]

On a side note.
I wonder how common psionic ability is among the Vilani.

I think the Vilani would consider psionics iconoclastic and not good for the social order. Just my opinion.

 

[ottarrus]

Hello,
I'm new to the Traveller system. I just finished reading Traveller 2nd Edition.

When a player creates a character starting a Psion career (such as a Psion-Warrior) in Term 1, and during Term 2 they roll for a new psionic talent they don’t already possess on the Service Skills table, they must make a roll to determine if they can learn this talent. The rule is straightforward: if the roll succeeds, they acquire the talent at level 0. However, if they fail, they gain nothing, effectively “losing” an entire term (four years of the character’s life) without any benefit.

This seems harsh compared to other careers, which always guarantee progress in a skill or characteristic. Additionally, in the Institute Testing section, training lasts only four months and allows the character to attempt learning all available talents, with cumulative penalties but multiple chances to succeed.

As a house rule, would it be too generous to allow two or three learning attempts to acquire a new talent when a psionic character transitions to a new term during character creation? This would better reflect the time and effort invested in psionic training (in a 4 years training vs 4 months) while remaining consistent with the idea that talent acquisition isn’t guaranteed.

This question might seem basic, but as I mentioned earlier, I’m just beginning to explore the mechanics of Traveller. I have to admit, it was "love at first sight" for me. I’m eager to dive deeper and dedicate myself to learning and mastering its rules as much as possible.

Thank you for taking the time to shed light on this topic for me.

The reason for the limitations on learning new powers is to prevent 'jedi master' characters.

Traveller treats psionics like another skill set, not Massive Cosmic Power... The powers are designed to be helpful, but not utterly game breaking.
There are several skill groups in Traveller: Social, Combat, Technical, etc. and a Traveller campaign is at its best when every skill set is allowed to shine. Having a psion who can break every scenario using their powers tends to make the other players have a real sense of 'why am I even here'.

Back in the early days of game, I saw this in action. The referee let one PC join the group who had very few skills other than psionic powers. What's more, the guy had powers in 4 Talents. It seemed like the only thing the guy couldn't do was teleport. After awhile the other four of us in the party started feeling like the backups for when Mr. Jedi's power points were running low....

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

The reason for the limitations on learning new powers is to prevent 'jedi master' characters.

Traveller treats psionics like another skill set, not Massive Cosmic Power... The powers are designed to be helpful, but not utterly game breaking.
There are several skill groups in Traveller: Social, Combat, Technical, etc. and a Traveller campaign is at its best when every skill set is allowed to shine. Having a psion who can break every scenario using their powers tends to make the other players have a real sense of 'why am I even here'.

Back in the early days of game, I saw this in action. The referee let one PC join the group who had very few skills other than psionic powers. What's more, the guy had powers in 4 Talents. It seemed like the only thing the guy couldn't do was teleport. After awhile the other four of us in the party started feeling like the backups for when Mr. Jedi's power points were running low....

Could not the ref have tailored advetures to require everyone's abilities?

 

[ottarrus]

Could not the ref have tailored advetures to require everyone's abilities?

Good question.
This was still the early days of both Traveller as a game and roleplaying as a hobby... both players and refs weren't all that sophisticated yet. And to be fair, neither was the published material. Another thing to consider was that everyone in the industry [from Gary Gygax down to 17-year-old me] was still pretty young.
As the situation was at that time, every time the referee presented a problem to be solved Mr. Jedi would solve it with psionics before anyone else could ask is 'x' skill was applicable. The only exceptions were actual gunfights and the ref started being very careful and particular with the guy's Clairvoyance Talent.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Good question.
This was still the early days of both Traveller as a game and roleplaying as a hobby... both players and refs weren't all that sophisticated yet. And to be fair, neither was the published material. Another thing to consider was that everyone in the industry [from Gary Gygax down to 17-year-old me] was still pretty young.
As the situation was at that time, every time the referee presented a problem to be solved Mr. Jedi would solve it with psionics before anyone else to ask is 'x' skill was applicable. The only exceptions were actual gunfights and the ref started being very careful and particular with the guy's Clairvoyance Talent.

I understand the dynamics of player satisfaction that you have described. Indeed, I managed to create a character for a campaign that I joined where when combat occurred, my PC could just take out just about any threat. Players I noticed were not thankful (to my surprise) and so they started taking risks with their characters just to "get some action". It took me a sec to realize this and disregard the illogic of it and occasionally hang back so the others could get a little more murder into their hobos.

Looking back on it, it seems obvious but at the time I thought I was doing everyone the biggest favor ever.

 

[Tom B]

The reason for the limitations on learning new powers is to prevent 'jedi master' characters.

Traveller treats psionics like another skill set, not Massive Cosmic Power... The powers are designed to be helpful, but not utterly game breaking.
There are several skill groups in Traveller: Social, Combat, Technical, etc. and a Traveller campaign is at its best when every skill set is allowed to shine. Having a psion who can break every scenario using their powers tends to make the other players have a real sense of 'why am I even here'.

Back in the early days of game, I saw this in action. The referee let one PC join the group who had very few skills other than psionic powers. What's more, the guy had powers in 4 Talents. It seemed like the only thing the guy couldn't do was teleport. After awhile the other four of us in the party started feeling like the backups for when Mr. Jedi's power points were running low....

I've got a psionic character who rolled really well on the acquisition tables, so that the only thing he can't do is teleport. However, as soon as a psion is used the points go down which makes things harder to use and then you have to wait at least 3 hours gameplay to get any back and it remember your psion might may not even work!. It means that I'm reluctant to use any psion unless, either I can rely on it, really need to do it, (this is not the droids you are looking for), or we'll be having a rest soon.

And most take over a round to cast, so not much use in combat.

I've found the rules for psions to be very well balanced.

 

[ottarrus]

I've got a psionic character who rolled really well on the acquisition tables, so that the only thing he can't do is teleport. However, as soon as a psion is used the points go down which makes things harder to use and then you have to wait at least 3 hours gameplay to get any back and it remember your psion might may not even work!. It means that I'm reluctant to use any psion unless, either I can rely on it, really need to do it, (this is not the droids you are looking for), or we'll be having a rest soon.

And most take over a round to cast, so not much use in combat.

I've found the rules for psions to be very well balanced.

The current rules are very balanced, but they're much different than the original LBB rules from back in the day.
What's more, the current rules clarified a lot of the rules loopholes of previous editions.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

The current rules are very balanced, but they're much different than the original LBB rules from back in the day.
What's more, the current rules clarified a lot of the rules loopholes of previous editions.

Folk complain about the balancing but I would agree, it's not THAT imbalanced, especially if you follow the restrictions to the letter. PSI cost, Success checks to activate, time to recharge.

I did find one balance issue involving Zhodani Psionics in 2e that is hilarious. It is an insta-kill plus nakedity option a Zhodani Psionic can have. You can read my forum post detailing it here.

I disagree with Tom B about most are not useful in combat. Just about all the ones that would make sense that you would want to use in combat are 1D x seconds or a combat round. Some take a few combat rounds.

The big problem I have is with missing important rulings or rules that make no sense. For example, when they give durations, sometimes this reads like a time to activate, other entries read like it is a duration of effect. They should have two separate entries for each and list as follows:

Time to Activate:
Duration of Effect:

Then there is the zero effect problem. Many of the powers state a time scale (secs, rnd, minutes etc) X effect. Like "rounds x effect". If you roll a success but just make it, then the duration is zero because "rounds X 0" = 0 rounds. There should be either a "minimum of 1" clause or a special "marginal success" result entry. You don't just rob them of their success and the PSI points spent.

These are the two big things that I feel need to be addressed in any future updates so I hope the author/designers are listening to these forum entries.

 

[Vormaerin]

The difficulty with the combat psionics is that the targets are very high for fairly limited effect. Telepathic Assault is a 14+. TK punch is only an 8+ but it is a 0d6 dmg attack with short range. You'd have to roll extremely well to have a meaningful effect on even an unarmored opponent. Pyrokinesis needs an 11+ to do 1d6 dmg.

You could pick someone up and throw them with a typical 8+, but that costs a lot of PSI points since its 1 per 10kg. So you are spending between 6 and 10 (or more) PSI to throw someone in basically no gear.

The various senses and awareness abilities can be pretty useful. But, with the exception of teleportation, every PSI ability can be pretty easily duplicated with gear in a much more reliable and durable capacity. Which is fine, most games wouldn't want Jedi.

The 0 effect problem applies a variety of skills in Traveller, not just psionics.