No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
Why does there fleet box suck? Can someone please let me know. It doesn't even reach 5 battle. Surely Having a fleet box with 3 Motherships, 2 Fighter Carriers, 1 Hunter and a Shadow Omega would have been better.
Psi Corp
- Thread starter No. 1 Bear
- Start date
I too noticed this...if you go by "per-ship" box discount (not counting fighters), theirs is the worst in the box set, saving only something like $17 over buying separately. And the inclusion of two Chronos instead of say, two Shadow-Cloaks, ties you to Crusade era EA allies.
I understand going low on Motherships, but I would have rather at least seen:
- 2 Motherships
- 2 Hunters
- 1 Shadow Omega
- 2 Shadowcloaks
and then enough fighters for the choices above.
I don't know why the Fighter Carriers are in anyone's consideration - they're severely lacking in both style and substance, IMHO.
And riddle me this...if the Shadowcloak is supposed to look exactly like a Tethys, why does the model cost over twice as much?!? 1 Shadowcloak = $12, while 2 Tethys = $10, which has me wondering if painting two Tethys in appropriate Psi-black wouldn't be an acceptable stand in...
I understand going low on Motherships, but I would have rather at least seen:
- 2 Motherships
- 2 Hunters
- 1 Shadow Omega
- 2 Shadowcloaks
and then enough fighters for the choices above.
I don't know why the Fighter Carriers are in anyone's consideration - they're severely lacking in both style and substance, IMHO.
And riddle me this...if the Shadowcloak is supposed to look exactly like a Tethys, why does the model cost over twice as much?!? 1 Shadowcloak = $12, while 2 Tethys = $10, which has me wondering if painting two Tethys in appropriate Psi-black wouldn't be an acceptable stand in...
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
I'd let you play "converted" Tethys as Shadowcloaks. Real question is, why disguise the super-stealthy Shadowcloak as an out-of-service, obsolete unit?
My shadowcloaks came 2 to a pack, all 4 packs of them. And they don't actually look like tethys, I think it is just a fluff description.
As for the fighter carriers, they each carry 2 flights of Black Omegas, and have a Psychic Crew. That makes them worth it to me. And with the Motherships you'll need the sinks to get boresight.
As for the fighter carriers, they each carry 2 flights of Black Omegas, and have a Psychic Crew. That makes them worth it to me. And with the Motherships you'll need the sinks to get boresight.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
My Shadowcloaks only came individually packaged. And I consider the not looking like a Tethys to be a good thing - the Shadowcloak models actually look decent.
This leads on to the question: Would you let me use a Shadowcloak model as a Tethys?
This leads on to the question: Would you let me use a Shadowcloak model as a Tethys?
very good to know! That's more like it!armbarred said:
I like carriers to have a bit of stand on their own power, and to carry a bit more than 2 flights. But collectively, 4 off them do make a solid carrier group. Maybe I just need to ponder "swarm carrier" tactics some more...
Isn't that what the eight Shadowcloaks are for ?
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
When you consider that two flights of Black Omega are more or less worth a patrol point all on their own, that leaves another patrol point worth for the carrier itself. All in all, it doesn't strike me as that bad a ship for a patrol point...
neko said:
One way to look at it is to ask - does it rival the Fighter Wing plus a Shadowcloak ?
Another way I looks at Carriers - can they weather any E mines reasonably well, and then deliver their payloads quickly once in a bit closer?
And following that, do they have some punch to get stuck in?
The Avenger and Balvarin are perfect Raid examples, as is most Gaim of course.
At Skirmish level, the Xeel is an example of a fairly weak Carrier. Sure it has good punch - but it takes 3 turns to unload! The Raider Strike Carrier does its job well, and has Fleet carrier to boot! I suppose it all depends on the intended role.
-D
The Xeel is weak?!
You acknowledge it has punch, some of the best in the skirmish range that's not beam related... but it also has fairly good damage/crew and one of the best fighter/bombers in the game.
It can take a few turns to unload, but you start with one on the table and can launch two on the first turn. Drop one more as you close. Yes, if your facing e-mines you might want a carrier that drops all at once at close range, but unless your facing Gaim most of the time you can keep your fighters off the high priority target list, using the pre launched as a second strike.
I don't know, I just don't see a strong combatant, with great fighters as weak. It even has a jump point to come in where needed when hyper is allowed.
Ripple
You acknowledge it has punch, some of the best in the skirmish range that's not beam related... but it also has fairly good damage/crew and one of the best fighter/bombers in the game.
It can take a few turns to unload, but you start with one on the table and can launch two on the first turn. Drop one more as you close. Yes, if your facing e-mines you might want a carrier that drops all at once at close range, but unless your facing Gaim most of the time you can keep your fighters off the high priority target list, using the pre launched as a second strike.
I don't know, I just don't see a strong combatant, with great fighters as weak. It even has a jump point to come in where needed when hyper is allowed.
Ripple
Even as a carrier I have to give it credit for it's level given the fighters it carries. Four Tzymm are nothing to sneeze at, they carry seven AD, are a +1 dogfighter and reasonably fast. The only bomber I'd say beats it most days for it's role is the Sky Serpent, and your not getting four of those plus a ship at skirmish.
It does have a weak launch rate, but I don't believe you can say that is the be all end all of being a carrier. It's really only relevant if your trying to plunge in to the enemy and launch at short range. It is one strategy against an e-mine throwing foe, but only one, and against a minority of the fleets in the game.
I don't know what the criteria is for being a good carrier I guess. What I'm hearing here, able to dump fighters at close range in two turns max, seems to be way to restricting for such a broad term. The comparisson to the raider carrier being better because it can launch and recover doesn't hold water for me because it can only launch and recover the weakest fighters in the game next to the kotha.
I don't see how you can separate what a carrier carries from its value as a carrier, which is what it seems folks are doing here.
ripple
It does have a weak launch rate, but I don't believe you can say that is the be all end all of being a carrier. It's really only relevant if your trying to plunge in to the enemy and launch at short range. It is one strategy against an e-mine throwing foe, but only one, and against a minority of the fleets in the game.
I don't know what the criteria is for being a good carrier I guess. What I'm hearing here, able to dump fighters at close range in two turns max, seems to be way to restricting for such a broad term. The comparisson to the raider carrier being better because it can launch and recover doesn't hold water for me because it can only launch and recover the weakest fighters in the game next to the kotha.
I don't see how you can separate what a carrier carries from its value as a carrier, which is what it seems folks are doing here.
ripple
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
A decent carrier needs to be able to clear its decks in as short a time as possible while possessing enough firepower to defend itself from moderate attack. Fleet carrier is a nice bonus.
No carrier trait so low launch speed and no free fighters in a campaign. No fleet carrier. It's a warship that just happens to carry a lot of (very good) fighter-bombers. Scramble the fighters and you can launch them in 2 turns (CQ7's not a problem for the Vree) and you have a decent skirmish level warship thats just launched more than a patrol points worth of fighters. Bargain.
After looking over the Psi-Corps Fighter Carriers some more, I am seeing good use for them in a pack of four.
Firts off, that's 8 Omega SF - not shabby. 4 potential Psychic crew rolls.
A fair amount of collective AD, but they'll fall of fast as ships die.
I see the best use because they're +1 CQ and carry Advanced Jump Point!
Imagine this:
All 4 in hyperspace with 1 Fighter already launched (I think that's okay).
Shadowcloaks already on the table, to enable normal action after emerging from Hyperspace.
Turn 1 or 2 - All 4 open their Jump Points trying to do the JP Bomb maneuver (5+ to achieve).
Next turn, choose the best positioned Jump Point, let the others drop. Emerge from there. The owning ship cannot Launch (as he's holding the JP open), but the other three can. So that's 7 OSF's and 4 light ships dropped on someone's vulnerable spot, AFTER they've endured a few JP Bombs.
Not too shabby for a Battle pt, I'd say.
4 Xeels might not be too bad in a similar role, now that I think about it! Just hope for those 2+ Scramble rolls when emerging from Hyper (except for the jp-opening ship.)
After having faced a Gaim Breach Pod nightmare this past weekend, I'm pondering a lot of things in terms of "How can I deliver a bunch of Superiority fighters into the middle of the enemy?"
-D
Firts off, that's 8 Omega SF - not shabby. 4 potential Psychic crew rolls.
A fair amount of collective AD, but they'll fall of fast as ships die.
I see the best use because they're +1 CQ and carry Advanced Jump Point!
Imagine this:
All 4 in hyperspace with 1 Fighter already launched (I think that's okay).
Shadowcloaks already on the table, to enable normal action after emerging from Hyperspace.
Turn 1 or 2 - All 4 open their Jump Points trying to do the JP Bomb maneuver (5+ to achieve).
Next turn, choose the best positioned Jump Point, let the others drop. Emerge from there. The owning ship cannot Launch (as he's holding the JP open), but the other three can. So that's 7 OSF's and 4 light ships dropped on someone's vulnerable spot, AFTER they've endured a few JP Bombs.
Not too shabby for a Battle pt, I'd say.
4 Xeels might not be too bad in a similar role, now that I think about it! Just hope for those 2+ Scramble rolls when emerging from Hyper (except for the jp-opening ship.)
After having faced a Gaim Breach Pod nightmare this past weekend, I'm pondering a lot of things in terms of "How can I deliver a bunch of Superiority fighters into the middle of the enemy?"
-D
cubfan1978
Mongoose
I just played a 4 point Battle game last night. My Psi Corp vs his Pakmara. I've only played B5CtoA about 3 times, but I used a Shadow Omega, a mothership, a hunter, a fighter carrier and 2 shoadowcloaks (Basically what I own and proxies). He had 4 Haliks, 4 Ikortas, and 8 Sunhawks. Early on my hunter kicked ass destroying an Ikorta and a sunhawk in one shot (targeted 4 ships total). The hunter also managed 84 damage in one shot against a Halik in a subsequent turn, the mothership was good in that its slow speed and extreme range kept it from harm, but I just couldn't hit with it, later in the game, I just didn't have enough initiatve sinks to boresight anymore, and I eventually lost, but I think I'd switch out the shadow Omega for 2 hunters. Those things are great!
Carriers -
Still can't see how your separating the carrier from what it can carry. For me it doesn't matter what I still have on the deck, what matters is what I get into space. The Xeel with a scramble will have 21 AD on the table in two two, in three instances of +1 dogfight. The Raider will have 8 AD with no inherent bonus, but four instances of +1 due to fleet carrier with a recovery roll. Psi carrier gets out 4 AD, with two instances of +3 with a 'special' dodge. Of the three I'd take the Xeel more often than not, especially when you consider that neither of the other two can do a thing beyond 10 inches.
Jump Point Bombing -
I looked at this. One of the mockeries of the new jump bomb rules was that anyone with a +1 CQ could do it to easily, I just hate to see this becoming a standard tactic. It was an issue before, I expect it will become on again if folks use to it much. But it is the most obvious attack strategy with these ships.
Psi Corp Battle report -
Saw part of the fight, looked fun. You did have really bad dice with the mother ship. The issue with the Shadow Omega was just that you bought up to get it. You can't really do that with a bore sighted fleet. To expensive in sinks, and you didn't use any regular EA allies to boost AD numbers, so you were really leaning on the Shadow to do a lot of heavy lifting. It just doesn't throw enough dice to count on like that. Much better buy in War level scenarios.
The hunter is a really powerful ship. Beam mechanics are kind of funny. The absolute average should be even to the number of AD but since you can roll very very high, but you can only lose the starting number it doesn't quite work out that way in practice. Something about deviations and being able to deviate up more than down I guess.... some math oriented type will come by and explain what I'm getting wrong soon I'm sure. (And yes, we actually track all our beam dice, and some of us track all critical dice... helps with our tests)
Ripple
Still can't see how your separating the carrier from what it can carry. For me it doesn't matter what I still have on the deck, what matters is what I get into space. The Xeel with a scramble will have 21 AD on the table in two two, in three instances of +1 dogfight. The Raider will have 8 AD with no inherent bonus, but four instances of +1 due to fleet carrier with a recovery roll. Psi carrier gets out 4 AD, with two instances of +3 with a 'special' dodge. Of the three I'd take the Xeel more often than not, especially when you consider that neither of the other two can do a thing beyond 10 inches.
Jump Point Bombing -
I looked at this. One of the mockeries of the new jump bomb rules was that anyone with a +1 CQ could do it to easily, I just hate to see this becoming a standard tactic. It was an issue before, I expect it will become on again if folks use to it much. But it is the most obvious attack strategy with these ships.
Psi Corp Battle report -
Saw part of the fight, looked fun. You did have really bad dice with the mother ship. The issue with the Shadow Omega was just that you bought up to get it. You can't really do that with a bore sighted fleet. To expensive in sinks, and you didn't use any regular EA allies to boost AD numbers, so you were really leaning on the Shadow to do a lot of heavy lifting. It just doesn't throw enough dice to count on like that. Much better buy in War level scenarios.
The hunter is a really powerful ship. Beam mechanics are kind of funny. The absolute average should be even to the number of AD but since you can roll very very high, but you can only lose the starting number it doesn't quite work out that way in practice. Something about deviations and being able to deviate up more than down I guess.... some math oriented type will come by and explain what I'm getting wrong soon I'm sure. (And yes, we actually track all our beam dice, and some of us track all critical dice... helps with our tests)
Ripple
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
I think that one of the biggest issues that I have with the fleet box is strongly linked to one of the main issues that I have with the fleet list in general. On the whole, I like to try and play vaguely fluffy fleets, and as such I consider the list to have holes at Raid and War level.
Raid level is a problem because there's only meant to be 5 Motherships, and they're meant to be non-combat ships that stay hidden away in hyperspace. I can't see Psi Corp throwing them into fights as if they were Hyperions, and as such, I hate to build lists which makes them look as if they were 10 a penny.
War level on the other hand is at least offering you a ship that's meant to fight. If you're fighting in 2261 at least. After which they're all destroyed...
Unfortunately, the fleet box includes both of these ships. This means that all of them include a War ship that at best I might want one model of for the sake of completeness. From the 2nd box onwards, I'm then also considering the Mothership to be a bit of a waste of space as well, seeing as I hate to take more than one of them.
Raid level is a problem because there's only meant to be 5 Motherships, and they're meant to be non-combat ships that stay hidden away in hyperspace. I can't see Psi Corp throwing them into fights as if they were Hyperions, and as such, I hate to build lists which makes them look as if they were 10 a penny.
War level on the other hand is at least offering you a ship that's meant to fight. If you're fighting in 2261 at least. After which they're all destroyed...
Unfortunately, the fleet box includes both of these ships. This means that all of them include a War ship that at best I might want one model of for the sake of completeness. From the 2nd box onwards, I'm then also considering the Mothership to be a bit of a waste of space as well, seeing as I hate to take more than one of them.
Actually, there were seven in service as of 2265(I don't have the ships of the Galaxy or Psi Corps book here atm). But each lists the seven names. There were 15 Shadowcloaks as of (insert date here) and I believe 6 Fighter Carriers as of (insert date here).
I like the idea of the Motherships jumping in at long range and staying out of the fight unless something happens to become a target. Will it be super competitive tournament-wise? Probably not. Will it be great fun compared to my ISA? Oh yeah.
I like the idea of the Motherships jumping in at long range and staying out of the fight unless something happens to become a target. Will it be super competitive tournament-wise? Probably not. Will it be great fun compared to my ISA? Oh yeah.
cubfan1978
Mongoose
armbarred said:
That is pretty much how the Mothership played. It moved 2 inches a turn and shot its long range weapon and let a fighter out (of course the fighter were pretty much worthless against a pakmara fleet). While my pther ships with shorter range weapons moved closer to my opponents ships.
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