Proposal: The Blue Star (Skirmish)

[Hindsight]

Turns: 2/90°
Speed: 16
Hull: 4
Troops: --
Special: Adaptive Armor, Advanced Jump Engine, Agile, Atmospheric, Dodge 3, Flight Computer, Scout
Craft: None

Molecular Pulsar: Forward Arc, Range 12, 4 AD Accurate, AP, DD
Laser Cannon: Forward Arc, Range 18, 2 AD Beam, DD

Damage: 8/3

Crew: 6/3

I complain a lot about the ISA Skirmish ship choices, they are clunky, slow, and don't represent what the ISA would send to a battle. Maybe the Rangers would use those clunky old things, and they did as we saw, but if the White Star Fleet moves against you, it isn't going to have some clunky old Minbari shuttle rejects clammering behind them.

So what I propose is that the Blue Star be removed from the Patrol level ships, and upgraded slightly, to represent the powers of a Skirmish level vessel.

The range of the main weapon is increased slightly, and the Laser Cannon from the Liandra is reproduced here, losing one dice, and the turret arc overall, for one extra dice to the beam weapon. Six AD to the Liandras 7.

You gain two Damage here, splitting the difference between the current Blue Star and the White Star. Losing the Flyer Flight and Anti-Fighter for the Blue Star perks, Dodge 3, Adaptive Armor and keeping the Liandras Scout.

Thoughts?

 

[skavendan]

I'd knock the speed down to 15" but apart from that seems reasonable.

 

[Hindsight]

I can understand that, my only thoughts on that are that the White Stars are 15, and having it identical seems odd. The smaller ship would probably be slightly faster.

Can I give up an inch of White Star movement to keep my 1 AD on the beam weapon? =)

 

[CZuschlag]

With an effective Damage:Crew of 24:18 to the White Star's 20:24 before Adaptive Armour, newfound access to Close Blast Doors (the Blue Star didn't used to have that because of the 1 weapon system), and guns that equal the Whitestar with the new Whitestar P&P restrictions .... this is a White Star at Skirmish level without the 1 point of Self-Repair and 1 point of Hull. It even has Scout, for g'ness sake. Compare with the Light Raider for valid comparisons by doubling you scores to reflect Adaptive Armour's capabilities, and you'll see how this one is out of line.

Recommendations (at MINIMUM!):

Add 2 Crew.
Change Dodge to 4+.
Remove 1 Die of each weapon system.

 

[katadder]

why would the range be longer than a WSs on its pulsars?
also to czuschlag why remove 1AD from each weapon?
the pulsars would then only have the same AD as one WS fighter and a 1AD beam isnt upto much most the time.
if the dodge got reduced to 4+ I would also increase hull to 5.

TBH i see no problem with the bluestar where it is. although a variant at skirmish with those weapons (shorter beam range) might be an idea.

 

[Ripple]

I think he is proposing a variant of the bluestar for skimish level.

The problem is the same one we had with the old whitestar when it was dodge 3+. It's effective damage/crew score is huge for it's class given how often it should be able to avoid being fired at at all. With AA its 16 and 12, and at dodge 3+ (Chris tells me is a 200% upgrade in the total AD you need to throw to kill it....) that's what...48 and 36? For a skirmish ship, even one at hull 4 that is a lot?

It needs to come down in survivability to reach skirmish levels.

Firepower...

This is still a 2/90 ship, with even reduced dodge at least better than average survivability.... so it has to give up some firepower from a standard skirmish ship. Right now you talking very good range on it's primary weapon, and its a DD beam. Most of the other skirmish ships that get this are 2/45 or so...

As is this essentially replaces the whitestar in any fleet build but you get twice as many. It's almost as big but you get two, the same firepower relative to PL (4 AD beam dd vs 2 AD beam td precise plus twice the pulsars for the PL point), no listed power issues or boresight, double your scouting... dropping a pl usually helps some but not this much.

Nope... too much...

At least you need to drop range on the Pulsars, drop the beam to a die or drop range and damage multiplier or slap on power restrictions... something to bring it down a bit. As to the hull 5... I would say no. At hull 4 with the dodge 4+ it's a very good vs a lot of folks, but not so good against a few. A good situational ship rather than a blanket replacement.

Ripple

 

[Jim?]

How about:-

Bluestar Gunboat (Skirmish)

After finding their resources stretched while hunting the Drakh, experiments were made to increase the firepower of the useful bluestar design to adapt it to a more combat related hull. Initially, an Improved Neutron Laser was fitted in an attempt to grant the ship additional punch, but it was found to place too great a power drain on the ship's reactor, so the weapon was downgraded to a standard model. Unfortunately, even with this compromise in design, some of the Molecular Pulsars had to be removed to accommodate the weapon system in the nose of the tiny craft.


Speed: 16
Turns: 2/90
Hull: 4
Damage: 5/1
Crew 6/1

Traits:- Adaptive Armour, Advanced Jump Engine, Agile, Atmospheric, Dodge 4+, Flight Computer, Self-Repairing 1

Weapons:

Neutron Laser: Forward Arc, Range 12, 2 AD, Beam, DD, P
Molecular Pulsars: Forward Arc, Range 8, 2 AD, Accurate, AP, DD

 

[Hindsight]

You'd gain no damage over the initial Blue Star, in favor of the gun upgrade. I tried to find a balance between the Blue Star, and the Liandra, without going so far as the White Star. I'd be ok with Dodge 4, assuming the Damage stayed where I had it, and Scout... I'm not married to.

The heavier weapons systems would cost maneuverability, bringing it in line with a regular white star at Dodge 4. Seems fine to me.

 

[lastbesthope]

If the Blue Star becomes Skirmish, what options do you leave the ISA with when playing low FAP Patrol games, the only Patrol choice left is fighters or allies.

LBH

 

[Da Boss]

If the Blue Star becomes Skirmish, what options do you leave the ISA with when playing low FAP Patrol games, the only Patrol choice left is fighters or allies.
LBH

AHHH poor deprived ISA :roll: - do they have to choose from various excellent fighters (oh dear only 6 choices at present) or shock horror have to use one of their vast selection of allies - life is sooo hard in the Alliance.

Nearly as hard as those races with only one fighter choice in BOTH patrol and skirmish - Shadows, some breeching pods or a Scout (Drakh), Vorlons - just a single fighter choice.............plus some League fleets and even the Minbari - of whom you have more of their fighters to choose form than they do!

Sorry LBH but it does irritate me that sometimes people try to claim the ISA is hard done by in its choices whn it has good ships AND Allies.

Its not at all broken but its sure as hell not hard done by.

I am not against a good skirmish chocie for the ISA - but lets also give all fleets somthing at all PL's (at least upto War)

 

[lastbesthope]

Sorry LBH but it does irritate me that sometimes people try to claim the ISA is hard done by in its choices whn it has good ships AND Allies.

Its not at all broken but its sure as hell not hard done by.

I am not against a good skirmish chocie for the ISA - but lets also give all fleets somthing at all PL's (at least upto War)

Easy DB, I never said the ISA was hard done by, I just asked what would be left at Patrol, it's nice to have a ship at every level, even if, at PL, you have a lot of choices in fighters.

I have never claimed the ISA was hard done by in ships, I have claimed, and proven, that I'minnefective at playing them though :lol:

LBH

 

[Da Boss]

Yeah sorry - very long week at work - I'll hit some golf balls tommorow and work off some tension...........

still people have been saying the ISA are low on choice and I just don't understand it............... :? I must have misinterpreted your post - sorry

re the present proposed ship - Hi Jim - maybe make the Beam slow loading?

 

[Hindsight]

Thats why I chose the Blue Star to up a tier, as I felt we had such great choices at Patrol already, and so often you hear (me) people complain about the Skirmish choice. So I thought rather than just complain, I'd offer a compromise, working with models we already have.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The Blue Star doesn't need to change. It's fine at patrol. By all means get a decent skirmish ship for the ISA - maybe re-write the Nolo'Tar so it's worth using? It's supposed to be old, sure, but all the Minbari ships are old but for one or two. Make it a fast, agile frigate with reasonable front guns and some stealth and away you go.

 

[Hindsight]

We aren't getting new models, and as I stated above, I don't see the logic in the ISA fielding really old ships as part of their White Star Fleet. In use, like a Civilian ship can be for the others, but no, not part of an assault fleet.

Upgrading the Blue Star, gives us the Skirmish ship we are asking for, subtracts one of our already huge assortment of Patrol vessels, and resolves our need for a desirable option at Skirmish.

Can you tell me why it doesn't need to change, instead of just stating that it doesn't? This is a discussion afterall...

 

[Triggy]

The Nolo'Tar/Liandra aren't that bad individually, it's just that they don't complement the Blue Star/White Star/White Star Gunship very well. I'm surprised nobody has taken the all-Nolo'Tar (with one Liandra) fleet as in playtesting it worked at least moderately! (the Flyer is what tips it really, I appreciate that the Nolo'Tar doesn't have much firepower).

Looking at the Nolo'Tar I think it would benefit from Crew 30/6 to make it a real option for the fleet...

 

[Hindsight]

I'll tell you, in my example of the Gunship made of chewing gum, these Skirmish ships looked like you stepped on the wad with your Nike's.

It just don't match the visual feel of the fleet. I like the idea of a turrent option, but even with a turret, its slow, its ugly, and its nothing like the rest of the fleet, even ignoring the logic stated above about it not being something the rangers would likely send out as a true attack craft.

 

[Triggy]

I'll tell you, in my example of the Gunship made of chewing gum, these Skirmish ships looked like you stepped on the wad with your Nike's.

It just don't match the visual feel of the fleet. I like the idea of a turrent option, but even with a turret, its slow, its ugly, and its nothing like the rest of the fleet, even ignoring the logic stated above about it not being something the rangers would likely send out as a true attack craft.

And yet unfortunately it's canon!

 

[Hindsight]

I'll tell you, in my example of the Gunship made of chewing gum, these Skirmish ships looked like you stepped on the wad with your Nike's.

It just don't match the visual feel of the fleet. I like the idea of a turrent option, but even with a turret, its slow, its ugly, and its nothing like the rest of the fleet, even ignoring the logic stated above about it not being something the rangers would likely send out as a true attack craft.

And yet unfortunately it's canon!

Yes and no. That big round ship with the saucer that pulls it along. That is canon. You see them all the time. It counts as a civilian ship in the game, not a warship that you take on an assault. Fluff wise, I just don't see it used in the "skirmish" level, when compared to what the Narn or Centauri would take, they take Warships, not civilian transports.

 

[McKickaha]

I have been observing these forums for a lot longer than my joining date would suggest and Hindsight you certainly have brought a new persepctive I have never seen before. You basically want to modify a ship largely because you dont like the alternative model, (which is a canon design at that).

I like your style.

Don't necessarliy agree with it but certainly makes for a new arguement.

(besides if we all went the route of not being able to field ugly models what would our Centauri collegues do) :lol: .

Kickaha (proud owner of 13 Armegeddon points of Centauri)