Pre-Paint or not Pre-Paint, that is the Question . . . . .

[Quark]

"What makes any hobby good value is the amount of time you spend on it, if you don't have to paint anything or stick anything together that part of the value equation is lost. Thereby making it more expensive immediately! "



That is a very valid, insightful point IMO. I'm just afraid that not enough people think like that anymore. Any hobby relies on it's being passed down from one generation to the next in order to survive. Unfortunately, the generation that's coming up now grew up on the instant gratification of CCG and clix games and just doesn't (generaly speaking) hold the same values or loyalties we would.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

I'm just afraid that not enough people think like that anymore. Any hobby relies on it's being passed down from one generation to the next in order to survive. Unfortunately, the generation that's coming up now grew up on the instant gratification of CCG and clix games and just doesn't (generaly speaking) hold the same values or loyalties we would.

100% Agreed, and in that lies the main problem.

In this 'disposable entertainment' world, why would any non-wargamer (I mean that with regards to the Wargamer mindset) bother with pre-paints its expensive, you need an opponent, an area to play etc - over a PC/Console Game!

That combined with the fact that most established Wargamers don't like the idea of Pre-Paints - means its not a good idea.

I did like the idea of 'part-painted' but not assembled (like the Manga Robot or Revell Star Wars kits), I think that would be far more tempting.

It saves a lot of initial work, but you still have some 'downtime' activity.

 

[darklord4]

The poll here is kind of flawed in that a majority of people that would want SST prepaints don't even come to this board.

That is a TOTALLY redundant point, how could you possibly know that!

"a majority of people that would want" being people new to non-collectible wargaming. Who comes to this board that doesn't already play?

 

[hamlrt]

Hello There after an awful long time ,
pre-paints hmmm.....They do seem to be all the rage now don't they .
Heroclix , horrorclix , AT43 , Battletech ect. the list goes on . In some ways i think its a good idea , in other ways a awful idea . Battlefield evo the figures to me look just like any other toy soldier or tank or car , yes of course you can repaint them if you like , but whats the point . In my opinion it installs lazyiness , instant and chuckable gratification .
however in another way its a good idea , perhaps for instance warrior bugs , my god they were boring to paint same colours , same markings ect. ect .
And yes you could say the same of marines too , but theres loads of little differences in the marines , little details to add. perhaps if certain rank and file figures were pre paints , then the more esoteric figures were unpainted ..perhaps thats the way forward .
I personally did not like the BEVO figures,tanks,cars , i dont want to sound up my own bum on this , but i can paint better than that .
I am looking forward to seeing the pre paints , it will decide for me whether i sell my SST on ebay or keep playing .
I feel mongoose have let us gamers down . Absolutely no new releases
except with the skinny brutes . C'mon Mongoose get it together at least release a special figure now and again , to keep us interested . I am not knocking the company here , just a little dissapointed.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

"a majority of people that would want" being people new to non-collectible wargaming. Who comes to this board that doesn't already play?

But by the sheer nature of your statement you imply there are hordes of would be gamers waiting to buy SST Pre-Paints, you cannot possibly know that (which is what I was trying to get at, albeit not too clearly).

 

[slotministry]

All the good arguments have already been made. I'll just keep it short and say I like the original rules, although Cover and other areas need to be tweaked, and I lvoe painting miniatures. I would ahve bought a lot more if the news had not come out last year. I also would have other players buying as well. ~RObert

 

[Mage]

Mongoose, relaunch the game, have some prepaints, access to white and metals, and go with coloured plastics.

You have grey plastic for guns, green for cap trooper armour, green for closed cap helmets, flesh for bare heads, black for arachnids red for forth, or white.

Now from all the Speil mongoose made about everyone wanting prepaints and how they listen to wargamers, from being on the forums for a while now, only a small majority, who no longer post here, echoed such sentiments before the big announcement. They were wargamers with limited time, who wanted something like prepainted orcs to play 40K with. If there was sense invovled, the company would hire someone to go to some cons, sit at a big dek with signs saying 'come here' and get them to put their idea for prepaints, whether for or against, in a ballot box.

As for other posts:

Lorcan - it is well and good having thousands of points ready to play when you open a starter, but if it kills the company and the game, what good is that novelty?

Quark - about the sruvey, I fugre that is a shocker, I have a few friends who used to wargame a lot but they are too lazy to paint, get jobs, play, read the two rules pages of the EVO system and argue over everything, even when proven wrong.

I think the best thing that can be done is to appeal to the constant customers, who have and will play wargames for years. RPGers have been covered by mongosoe fairly well, get a license of a game, and do everything else as per ussual - quality rules and good releases.

Having someone paint your armies is not the same as prepanits, and we can see with Rackham prepaints not only shnoot the company in the foot but you are depriving people who paint minis for cash.

And yes it is too expensive, I'd rather get metal minis. As for the US, no offence, but most American kids are too lazy to do their own figs. You'd be surprised the age of some kids, and the amount for that matter who come into my LGS with fully painted armies.

I hate the raffle stlye stuff with CMGs anyway.

I think the best way to do it is rather than have a bunch of prepaint units in boxes is to get a complete prepaint army set, and you can order inidivudal units from the company or speicla order. May work like that.

Part painted minis would rock. Could save some work, and it would not increase the cost.

Oh, the main problems with prepaints, they look cheap.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Part painted minis would rock. Could save some work, and it would not increase the cost.

As I said before, the Revell Star Wars kits come with painted components on the sprue.

The basic colour is molded into the plastic, with 'details' (for that read block colours) added 'in the mold'.

I just built a load for a ceiling display in my sons room, and they look really REALLY good!

 

[Galatea]

Here are the links to two of the largest german tabletopforums.
The votes are exactly the same as above in the order of the answers.

http://www.tabletopwelt.de/forum/showthread.php?t=95333
http://www.forenplanet.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19934&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Here are the links to two of the largest german tabletopforums.
The votes are exactly the same as above in the order of the answers.

http://www.tabletopwelt.de/forum/showthread.php?t=95333
http://www.forenplanet.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19934&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

So what do you think that shows?

 

[MaxSteiner]

I still think SST evo could be a success if its handled right.
But Mongoose are going to have to accept that its not going to be a hit with traditional wargamers.
In a toy store kinda setting they're going to do really well. I think to a lesser extent they should do well in a comic store enviroment too (Best get onto Diamond mongoose ).

Most of the people on Frothers seemed to accept this (Which is strange considering the reputation we have there); wargamers aren't the target audience for these prepaints. It doesnt matter how naff we think the models are, or how we think its destroying the hobby, because we arent the ones who are going to be buying it lol.

But that only works if it's realises that, if you aren't selling to wargamers, you cannot charge wargamer prices! Its very difficult to get the balance right I'd imagine, but the people involved in all this prepaint malarky are going to have to take a serious look at what you can get toy wise for the amount of money they're charging, and accept that you can't rely on the consumers only buying one brand with that much choice out there.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

sorry for taking so long to get back to people, have had a hectic weekend...

I don't necessarily agree with the prepaints=lunacy part though. While many prepaint games have come and gone, Heroclix has been a consistent seller, showing that there is a market if sold to the right people.

The clix games are not good examples in my opinion as they have the collectible driving factor. The 'Gotta catch 'em all' nature keeps people buying.

Yeah, but I was speaking specifically of Heroclix' success, and how you can have a successful PPM game outside the fad life cycle that's epitomised just about every other game. Heroclix is Wizkids' most successful game, and longest in priduction since they gave up on Mage Knight. Now granted they don't produce the fluff that makes the game popular (being Marvel and DC comics after all), but it does show that games with a strong background can concistently sell.

So basically I was reinforcing my point that I agree with Scipio that SSt/BFEvo need strong backgrounds and preferably evolving storylines, but that I disagree with his notion that prepaints can't ever sell.

OK, so, in answer to Mage's question, I've kind of already been taking an informal survey amongst the players at my LGS (mind you, it's a primarily RPG based group) and the answers actually really surprised me. Other than myself there are only one or two other guys left who actually paint anymore. I realized in asking everyone about the pre-paints that most of the regular wargamers had either myself or someone else paint up their armies for them, so in a way, they were ALREADY PLAYING WITH PREPAINTS!

That is NOT pre-paints, a person who plays with another persons work ISN'T using pre-paints. I used to paint to order, and my customers were VERY picky about what they got for their money. They wanted their figures to look good and individual, if someone else paints your army for you - you get choice of colours etc.

With pre-paints, you do not.

But as far as the person playing is concerned, they are pre-paints. Sure there's the potential to have them painted any which way you want, but at the end of the day the person who had the minis painted wanted to be able to play with them while not going to the effort of assembling and painting them themselves.

The basic concept behind non-collectible pre-paints is a good one - to tap into the people who do want to game, but don't want to model. It's really a case of finding a balance between them and established gamers who are heavily into modelling.

I think most companies saw the success of pre-painted Collectable Miniatures Games and saw it as a way of drawing people into the wargaming fold.

Big Mistake.

CMG's have the greed factor (I collect the Star Wars cmg and see it all the time), must have the rarest hardest miniatures. They appeal to the boardgame crowd and the CCG crowd equally. As a Wargamer, if I wasn't such a BIG Star Wars fan I wouldn't have bothered (I re-paint mine).

Wargamers have a particular mindset, so pre-paints will have little or no influence on 'potential wargamers'. They either are or they aren't, making something easier and 'disposable' as entertainment won't swing them either way.

I've seen it when my staff ran intro GW Intro Games, you can literally tell those folks who are 'in it for the long haul' and those customers who will buy the core game, and a few paints. Then put them in a cupboard and forget about them.

Pre-Paints aren't a selling point from that perspective, non wargamers have trouble enough seeing the value in the hobby without making the product more expensive!

Well that depends on how you want to look at wargaming - there's really two disparate yet linked hobbies that are referred to by that name - actual gaming when you're rolling dice and so on, and just plain modelling. I think a large chunk of the opposition to PPMs comes from the basic human nature to fear change - this isn't just a new game or a new minis line - it's a new way of approaching gaming, and people don't always like that. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course, but it's an interesting thing to note.

Also, you talk about lost value in not assembling and painting minis yourself, but that's only really a problem for people who enjoy it in the first place. And we all know peopel who are willing to pay a premium to get soemoene else to assemble and paint their minis for them, so we know those people are out there.

Lorcan - it is well and good having thousands of points ready to play when you open a starter, but if it kills the company and the game, what good is that novelty?

I totally agree, but there's nothing intrinsic about PPMs that could or would kill Mongoose - the handling of the situation for better or for worse is a totally different issue to the general discussion of the pros and cons of PPMs

I still think SST evo could be a success if its handled right.
But Mongoose are going to have to accept that its not going to be a hit with traditional wargamers.
In a toy store kinda setting they're going to do really well. I think to a lesser extent they should do well in a comic store enviroment too (Best get onto Diamond mongoose ).

Most of the people on Frothers seemed to accept this (Which is strange considering the reputation we have there); wargamers aren't the target audience for these prepaints. It doesnt matter how naff we think the models are, or how we think its destroying the hobby, because we arent the ones who are going to be buying it lol.

But that only works if it's realises that, if you aren't selling to wargamers, you cannot charge wargamer prices! Its very difficult to get the balance right I'd imagine, but the people involved in all this prepaint malarky are going to have to take a serious look at what you can get toy wise for the amount of money they're charging, and accept that you can't rely on the consumers only buying one brand with that much choice out there.

Agreed on just about every point here. ESPECIALLY the points about aimign at non-traditional wargamers (though I'd tie back into my points about there being two seperate hobbies, and rather then this being aimed outside traditional wargamers, rather it's just not aimed at people who see gaming and modelling as joined at the hip), and selling in toy and comics shops.

The price part is tricky though. I'd prefer the minis if they were a bit bigger or a bit cheaper, but at the moment they compare OK to GW/PP prices - not brilliant, but OK. The problem being that the only real way to decrease prices and maintain quality is to increase production massively, which requires a commensurate increase in sales. and then there's the beancounting-type decision to keep prices as they stand because people are willing to pay price X for the product, so why not keep charging that and pocket the difference? (Not that I think Mongoose would necessarily do that, I'm talking a generic scenario here)

 

[Galatea]

So what do you think that shows?

That german wargamers aren't interested in prepainted miniatures (and AT-43 proves that theory right).
The wargaming market isn't ready for prepaints (and probably will never be).

Next problem is quality. Europeans, especially germans, are VERY sensitive here.
So you have to produce prepaints that are REALLY good AND you can't sell them to standard wargaming prices (or even above as AT-43). And even then you will probably STILL not get wargamers to buy them.

Of course, you could aim that game at the kids - the only problem is Starship Troopers isn't a game for kids.
The Background surely isn't child-compatible and the rules are for adults, not kids.

AND if you do this you aim at a market that effectively doesn't exist any more.
Kid-time is over. Even GW slowly recognizes this.

Wargamers tend to recruit adults or people who are at least 16 for their communities these days. There is no need for 8 year old store kiddies in these groups.

In fact GW Hobbystores are the only places you see wargaming kids at all.
Local stores - nada. Conventions - no. Wargaming club meetings - nothing.
If it weren't for GW's Stores no kid would play tabletop at all.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Lorcan Nagle, your whole post was "Tomatoes/Tomaytoes" and didn't really address anything - just a re-hash of whats gone before!

I appreciate that people want to be supportive of the pre-paints idea, but the vaster majority of consumers won't play table top games.

Its a 'cottage industry' for want of a better term, and trying to make it more accessable etc really is a big folly!

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

So what do you think that shows?

That german wargamers aren't interested in prepainted miniatures (and AT-43 proves that theory right).
The wargaming market isn't ready for prepaints (and probably will never be).

Next problem is quality. Europeans, especially germans, are VERY sensitive here.
So you have to produce prepaints that are REALLY good AND you can't sell them to standard wargaming prices (or even above as AT-43). And even then you will probably STILL not get wargamers to buy them.

Of course, you could aim that game at the kids - the only problem is Starship Troopers isn't a game for kids.
The Background surely isn't child-compatible and the rules are for adults, not kids.

AND if you do this you aim at a market that effectively doesn't exist any more.
Kid-time is over. Even GW slowly recognizes this.

Wargamers tend to recruit adults or people who are at least 16 for their communities these days. There is no need for 8 year old store kiddies in these groups.

In fact GW Hobbystores are the only places you see wargaming kids at all.
Local stores - nada. Conventions - no. Wargaming club meetings - nothing.
If it weren't for GW's Stores no kid would play tabletop at all.

100% agree!

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Lorcan Nagle, your whole post was "Tomatoes/Tomaytoes" and didn't really address anything - just a re-hash of whats gone before!

I appreciate that people want to be supportive of the pre-paints idea, but the vaster majority of consumers won't play table top games.

Its a 'cottage industry' for want of a better term, and trying to make it more accessable etc really is a big folly!

See, I'm not so sure that the vast majority won't support pre-paints. CMGs do sell, there was varying degrees of excitement for BF:Evo and SST:Evo, AT-43 and so on. The execution may be lacking, and that in turn may have killed PPMs, but the principle is decent at least.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Lorcan Nagle, your whole post was "Tomatoes/Tomaytoes" and didn't really address anything - just a re-hash of whats gone before!

I appreciate that people want to be supportive of the pre-paints idea, but the vaster majority of consumers won't play table top games.

Its a 'cottage industry' for want of a better term, and trying to make it more accessable etc really is a big folly!

See, I'm not so sure that the vast majority won't support pre-paints. CMGs do sell, there was varying degrees of excitement for BF:Evo and SST:Evo, AT-43 and so on. The execution may be lacking, and that in turn may have killed PPMs, but the principle is decent at least.

But CMG's are a totally different animal, there is no comparison between the two markets.

 

[Quark]

Mage wrote:

"And yes it is too expensive, I'd rather get metal minis. As for the US, no offence, but most American kids are too lazy to do their own figs. You'd be surprised the age of some kids, and the amount for that matter who come into my LGS with fully painted armies."




No offense taken Mage, I actually said the same thing myself earlier in this thread, and that's actually my point. Over here the hobby aspect isn't nearly as popular as it once was, and it was never as popular here as it was "across the pond" so to speak.

As the gamers (such as myself) from the old Rouge Trader days get older and start families and careers etc., time has become a comodity for many and while they'd rather have well painted figs., they can't devote the time anymore so touching up a basic pre-paint suddenly becomes a good option. Add to that the fact that, as you say, "most American kids are too lazy to paint their own figs...", and I think that even though I personally dislike pre-paints, they may end up selling well over here.


I'd like to add something that I think people are missing here. If companies were still making decent money with "traditional" minis, would we even be having this disscusion?

 

[MaxSteiner]

yeah, but Wizkids and Hasbro are begining to release packages of specific troops rather than purely random packs (for example the adventure packs for D&D), so the two markets are begining to converge.
Attacktix comes in non random packs already for instance.

Also (And I mean no offence here) the basic Evo rules aren't really that much more complex than the rules for say heroclix, seem designed for a 1-2 hour game, and are all run off individual cards, again not that far removed from the ppm games at all.

tbh as far as I can see AT-43 and Evo aren't traditional wargames but could actually be termed ppm-boardgames ala heroscape, and that game has proven the concept can work, and make a hell of alot of money for everyone involved.
Saying that consumers at large wont play a wargame isn't really true, I'd tend towards consumer at large wont play some TERMED a wargame.
But thats why they all have stupid description like 'interactive action game!!!!!'

====> I'd also like to point out that when I was spouting doom and gloom about two years ago over this, alot of the people who are dead set against the concept now were saying it was gonna save SST, and how they had an army of friends who would have played but didnt have time to paint, and how they knew older players who just werent up for the paining as much as they were these days, and how their kids could get into it because they wouldnt have to dip the figs in a tub of emulsion to
get a painted army.

... But I havent really heard whats changed all these peoples minds.
Is it just that ya'll saw how bad they looked and how much they cost and were put off, or is it the delays?

Im not even trying to be funny for a change, I, and Im pretty sure Mongoose would like to know whats changed, cause Im pretty dang sure when we did this same questionaire back in the day, it was 90% in favour instead of the 90% against we're seeing now

 

[Quark]

I was just wondering the same thing Max. I know there's a lot of people who hate the "collectable" stuff, but will play a "war game" if it's NON COLLECTABLE (ala AT-43), and labeled w/the latest buzz term (Interactive Destruction Simulation...etc.LOL). It does seem though, like a lot of people have suddenly changed their minds, and I am also curious as to why.