Poster session for Empty Jump Hexes : possible solutions

[EDG]

A jump drive is both fast and simple. With one, it is possibe to move from here to there (where both places are at least one hundred planetary diameters out from any large masses) in a period of about a week.

CT, The Traveller Book, Traveller's Guide to the Universe, page 147. Emphasis mine.

OK... but does that mean you can jump (or arrive from jump) without any masses present at all? Or that you need to be at least 100D from a large mass? (i.e. does the mass still actually have to be there?)

And also, that contradicts what is said everywhere else about how it's possible to jump out from within 100D.

 

[EDG]

I'm afraid it does. It proves that a ship in jump-space can make the transition back to normal space without any mass being present. Even if mass terminated jumps were normal, there does exist a condition where mass is not required. If one goes by the idea that initially mass was needed to terminate jumps, then this might be a way to explain "they solved that later" and explain a difference between j-1 at TL9 and j-1 at TL-10....but it's been solved by j-2 TL-11.

True, but my point was that this condition is harder to achieve and not "natural". It's also possible to jump up to 36 pc in a misjump too, but that doesn't mean that anyone can do it deliberately with a J1 drive.

But I think we're agreeing anyway .

 

[Ishmael]

yep
I think we are

 

[GamerDude]

And just to toss out here... http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=36037&start=191 has some information I got from Marc...

and BTW... I read Marc's article in JTAS #24, have it on my HDD in fact. With an article as well done by the expert on the subject... leaving out that something is specifically needed in my book means its not needed.

 

[AKAramis]

A jump drive is both fast and simple. With one, it is possibe to move from here to there (where both places are at least one hundred planetary diameters out from any large masses) in a period of about a week.

CT, The Traveller Book, Traveller's Guide to the Universe, page 147. Emphasis mine.

OK... but does that mean you can jump (or arrive from jump) without any masses present at all? Or that you need to be at least 100D from a large mass? (i.e. does the mass still actually have to be there?)

And also, that contradicts what is said everywhere else about how it's possible to jump out from within 100D.

Yes, it does mean you can jump normally from any place to any place, provided those places are not within 100D of a world. no other details elsewhere in that source, aside from the misjump rules.

Likewise, in The Traveller Adventure, there is no special astrogation at all for jumping to the empty hex, no meeting anything there, and no problem jumping onward after transferring the stored fuel into the Jump Fuel tankage.

The misjump rules provide a partial exception: you can make a risky jump from 10D to 99D that may work. Inside 10D, you misjump and will likely be destroyed.

MegaTraveller points out that a target point inside 100diameters drops you out at 100 diameters, violently. (SSOM)

Entering jump is possible anywhere, but perturbations due to gravity make it safest to begin a jump at least 100 diameters out from a large massive body such as a world or star. Ships are naturally precipitated out of jumpspace before they get too deep into a gravity field.
Normal jumps take 168 hours (plus or minus 10 percent) to complete, regardless of the distance travelled. Sometimes a jump goes wrong. Catastrophic failures (called misjumps) can destroy the ship and its crew. Other failures can destroy a drive or send a ship in the wrong direction. Some misjumps reduce a jump6 to a mere jump-1, or convert a jump-1 into jump-10, 20, or higher.

Couple them all, and it is pretty clear to me.

 

[far-trader]

Couple them all, and it is pretty clear to me.

Couple them ALL and it is pretty clear to me...

...that there is little internal consistency throughout Traveller. Nothing wrong with that really as far as MTU/YTU/ATU goes. Makes a bloody mess of trying to nail down what is OTU and Canon though with any rational sense.

 

[EDG]

Yes, it does mean you can jump normally from any place to any place, provided those places are not within 100D of a world.

I checked and the Jumpspace article apparently doesn't mention anything about whether you need masses at either end or not. So that's not going to be particularly helpful here...

The Ref's Companion for MT does have a diagram in it that indicates that you can come out of jump beyond the 100D limit (in the in-systems operation section)... but that's the only thing I've found saying so though.

Likewise, in The Traveller Adventure, there is no special astrogation at all for jumping to the empty hex, no meeting anything there, and no problem jumping onward after transferring the stored fuel into the Jump Fuel tankage.

Yes, but as I've pointed out repeatedly, there's nothing wrong with that at all. TTA is set in the Third Imperium era, where that's possible. In the IW era, it's not possible. There's no contradiction there. The fact that it's not mentioned (beyond Imperium, anyway) before GT:IW was published makes no difference to anything - nobody had a need to mention it before since that era wasn't detailed previously.

MegaTraveller points out that a target point inside 100diameters drops you out at 100 diameters, violently. (SSOM)

Bzzzt! Starship Operator's Manual is a DGP product, you know that's "forbidden canon".

Entering jump is possible anywhere, but perturbations due to gravity make it safest to begin a jump at least 100 diameters out from a large massive body such as a world or star. Ships are naturally precipitated out of jumpspace before they get too deep into a gravity field.
Normal jumps take 168 hours (plus or minus 10 percent) to complete, regardless of the distance travelled. Sometimes a jump goes wrong. Catastrophic failures (called misjumps) can destroy the ship and its crew. Other failures can destroy a drive or send a ship in the wrong direction. Some misjumps reduce a jump6 to a mere jump-1, or convert a jump-1 into jump-10, 20, or higher.

That's pretty much what the Jumpspace article says.

 

[EDG]

Couple them ALL and it is pretty clear to me...

...that there is little internal consistency throughout Traveller. Nothing wrong with that really as far as MTU/YTU/ATU goes. Makes a bloody mess of trying to nail down what is OTU and Canon though with any rational sense.

Tell me about it .

We've had all this hoo-haa, when we've got all the info we need. At one time, jump into empty hexes wasn't possible (i.e. you need to find a mass to jump to). Later on, it became possible to do without a mass. Something changed in between. That's it, there's no problems to solve, it all works fine.

Sure, all the other canon doesn't even mention the idea of things changing, but why should it? It wasn't relevant to discussions of how the technology worked in the present eras. It's like explaining how modern computers work by talking about transistors and silicon chips and circuit boards and operating systems... well, does that imply they always worked that way? No, only that they work that way now. But of course, in the past they worked using vacuum tubes and switches and punchcards, and if you go right back to the start they worked purely mechanically with gears and levers... but you're not going to mention that in a modern discussion are you? But the fact remains that things have still changed...

So why can't it be the same here? And why would it be "wrong" to say that something changed to allow empty space jumps?

 

[AKAramis]

The computer analogy breaks, tho'... since the tube triode does the same thing as the transistor. (just not quite the same response times)

But jump requiring a mass then not later means two different means of calculation, at the very least. It implies two different mechanisms for jump.

But CT 2E (TTB is 2E CT) says anywhere outside 100D is accessible. A later change would need to be EXPLICIT to truly change it.

Also note that in TNE, a misjmp ending in a system puts you in orbit 1d20-1... Orbit 19 is WAY out in the Oort. About 225 light days out. 2/3 of a light year. So far out that it may as well be interstellar space.

 

[EDG]

The computer analogy breaks, tho'... since the tube triode does the same thing as the transistor. (just not quite the same response times)

Doesn't matter. The point is that the technology evolved, but that still doesn't have to be mentioned in a discussion about modern computers.

But jump requiring a mass then not later means two different means of calculation, at the very least. It implies two different mechanisms for jump.

No it doesn't. It implies that figuring out how to jump into space without a mass there is that much harder than doing it with a mass there, and that eventually the theory advances to allow ships to do that. It's still the same mechanism.

But CT 2E (TTB is 2E CT) says anywhere outside 100D is accessible. A later change would need to be EXPLICIT to truly change it.

And it is. It's explicit in GT:IW. And Imperium, for that matter.

Also note that in TNE, a misjmp ending in a system puts you in orbit 1d20-1... Orbit 19 is WAY out in the Oort. About 225 light days out. 2/3 of a light year. So far out that it may as well be interstellar space.

Repeat after me: "TNE is set after the start of the Aslan Border Wars". Let's try that again - "TNE is set after the start of the Aslan Border Wars". And remember what happens at the start of the Aslan Border Wars? That's right... jumping into space without a mass there becomes possible. There, it's not that difficult to understand is it?

 

[Border Reiver]

Alien Module 6: Solomani states that the first jump to Barnard was made via a stop off and refueling point 1 parsec out (this is also mentioned in the Imperium rules) thus deep space jumps were achievable by the Terrans pre Interstellar Wars.

Does GT:IW say different? :?:

 

[Border Reiver]

Aha. Pg 171. Sidebar. Deep Space Jumps.

So SJG have used "Deep Space Anchors" prior to discovering the ability to make Deep Space Jumps.

So it appears that was a math issue that made deep space jumps difficult.

 

[EDG]

The gravity field strength is determined by size,density and distance, of course. I'm sure thats what he meant. Yet I doubt people like to stop play to fool with a calculator over something like that, so a rule of thumb of 100d was pulled out of thin air to use with ordinary worlds ( rock, ~5.5g/mm^3, etc. ). At least, that's how I see it so far.

I'll just point this out here, but... can you - without a calculator or stopping to refer to rulebooks and tables - tell me what the 100D limit is for Barnard? Or for Earth? Or Jupiter?

I bet you can't. I can't either. And I sure can't tell you how long it takes for a ship to get from the 100D limit to the planet's surface without a calculator or a table either.

So the 100D rule of thumb isn't really any quicker to figure out that a g-based limit at all. Heck, for stars you only get the radii shown in CT Book 6 in units of Solar Radii, not even anything useful like AU or km!

 

[captainjack23]

Alien Module 6: Solomani states that the first jump to Barnard was made via a stop off and refueling point 1 parsec out (this is also mentioned in the Imperium rules) thus deep space jumps were achievable by the Terrans pre Interstellar Wars.

Does GT:IW say different? :?:

So, yes. GTIW are in conflict to the extent that 1. no references to mass jumps in canon except for the board games, and 2. The Terrans are described as using a fueling point, not a jump point. Are they the same ? It's a relevant question insofar as a secondary source is authoritative to the extent that it does not contradict a primary source. The two notes, as well as the DGP data, are referring to the same period, not comparing two different times that may have made different use of jump technology. So canon levels aside, there is an issue.

If a fuel point isn't a jump point, then GTIW is in error.
If it is, we still have a few problems, such as why it wasn't called a jump point; and if its a place that facilitates jump, why isn't it marked, and why jump theory (MWM) allows jump anywhere except within the 100d limit, and is silent about other issues such as earlier jump use. (and actually, jump still can occur, just not predictable jumping)


Honestly, has anyone ever actually asked Marc (or, heck, Loren )how te games Imperium and Dark Nebula fit into the OTU history or what their authoritativeness is ?

Damn. It may just be unsolvable. Imagine that, in a fictional history assembled from at least two different genres over 30 years of time by several authors all sort of semi collaborating. 8) 8) 8) 8)

 

[AKAramis]

But CT 2E (TTB is 2E CT) says anywhere outside 100D is accessible. A later change would need to be EXPLICIT to truly change it.

And it is. It's explicit in GT:IW. And Imperium, for that matter.

And imperium is an earlier source EXPLICITLY contradicted by 2nd Ed CT.

And GTIW is non-canonical by Marc's generality statement, and authoritative only in areas it doesn't contradict, if at all.

 

[RandyT0001]

And imperium is an earlier source EXPLICITLY contradicted by 2nd Ed CT.

Would you provide a direct quote from what book including page and paragraph where 2ed CT EXPLICITLY contradicts Imperium. I want to see something like "Previous editions of Imperium had a mis print, jumps do not require stellar masses to be present for jumps to be made." But not in some general explanination of what jump drives are like "jump drives allow one to travel interstellar distances from one hex to another in about a week".

I want a direct quote stating that Imperium is flat out wrong.

 

[Ishmael]

I dunno if this helps or not, but...

http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/GDW_List

note that under the heading of "Games", 'Imperium' is listed as non-canonical.

 

[far-trader]

I dunno if this helps or not, but...

http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/GDW_List

note that under the heading of "Games", 'Imperium' is listed as non-canonical.

No, not really. It IS a wiki for one thing*. But more to the point "The Golden Age Classic Traveller On CD-ROM" aka the CT-CD is Marc's product and it (Marc) says (the contents of the CD are):

The basic reference materials for Traveller as published by GDW between 1977 and 1996 comprise the Traveller canon.

And it includes Imperium.

* and there you go, proof positive of just how valid a wiki is, I "corrected" the "error" of listing Imperium as "not canon" in just a few seconds, I wonder how long before someone else "corrects" my correction :roll:

 

[Ishmael]

Then I think that what's really needed ( considering all the hand-wringing over canon and OGL and TLL, etc. ) is for MWM to issue a definitive list of EXACTLY what is and isn't canon.

I recall at some point in the past couple of decades ( maybe even on the TML ) that Imperium was not considered canon..and yet now it is. I recall that the quick economic system in Striker and TCS is not canon as it was meant to make balanced scenarios and not model Imperial wealth and yet, because it was a Traveller product published between '77-96, it is canon ( is it more or less authoritative than WTH or GT's economic system? ).

Thats what's wrong with canon...it is as shifty and hard to get a hold on as a hagfish. I'd like to see a definitive list signed off on by OTU maintainers and not just normal mortals tossing out evidence like a salad.

hehehe..traveller.wikia..... how will it fare with the new legalese?...bwahahahahaha

 

[AKAramis]

Then I think that what's really needed ( considering all the hand-wringing over canon and OGL and TLL, etc. ) is for MWM to issue a definitive list of EXACTLY what is and isn't canon.

I recall at some point in the past couple of decades ( maybe even on the TML ) that Imperium was not considered canon..and yet now it is. I recall that the quick economic system in Striker and TCS is not canon as it was meant to make balanced scenarios and not model Imperial wealth and yet, because it was a Traveller product published between '77-96, it is canon ( is it more or less authoritative than WTH or GT's economic system? ).

Thats what's wrong with canon...it is as shifty and hard to get a hold on as a hagfish. I'd like to see a definitive list signed off on by OTU maintainers and not just normal mortals tossing out evidence like a salad.

hehehe..traveller.wikia..... how will it fare with the new legalese?...bwahahahahaha

What Marc needs to do is issue two sets of Canon listings: Canon, as in part of Traveller, and OTU-Canon, which would be a subset.

As to explicitness:

Being able to jump to any point outside 100 diameters explicitly contradicts any restriction on jumping.

it's not as explicit as a statement of contradiction and/or revocation, but it's as close as we've ever seen.