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Playtesting vorlons.
- Thread starter No. 1 Bear
- Start date
Da Boss said:at present its just a bit a of a waste of an opportunity
Couldnt agree more!
It is a perfect opportunity to bring more substance to some fleets that have very little or none at all, and the Vorlons and Shadows are both in that category!
I agree that it is good they got something, but you want the something to be cool.
A bit like the new Abbai variant. It doesn't add anything new to the fleet beside the ability to use a model more easily. That's good, so happy to have it, but not excited by it. Especially when you have cool things out there like DaBoss's drone carrier variant that would have used the same model but added a whole different dimension to an Abbai fleet. (And maybe resurrected the Kotha.)
Similar here... the Raid ship is fine, useful but lacks flash or excitement. Why? Because it simply lacks new tactics or options, in a fleet that has so few really different things it can do. So you invest in a fleet that gets old fairly quickly due to the lack of unique tactics to work with it.
You could add new arcs, new fighter options, scenario ships like a planet killer... all good options, and exciting to try.
Ripple
A bit like the new Abbai variant. It doesn't add anything new to the fleet beside the ability to use a model more easily. That's good, so happy to have it, but not excited by it. Especially when you have cool things out there like DaBoss's drone carrier variant that would have used the same model but added a whole different dimension to an Abbai fleet. (And maybe resurrected the Kotha.)
Similar here... the Raid ship is fine, useful but lacks flash or excitement. Why? Because it simply lacks new tactics or options, in a fleet that has so few really different things it can do. So you invest in a fleet that gets old fairly quickly due to the lack of unique tactics to work with it.
You could add new arcs, new fighter options, scenario ships like a planet killer... all good options, and exciting to try.
Ripple
Ripple said:I agree that it is good they got something, but you want the something to be cool.
I wouldnt go so far as to say "cool" but at least a bit of variety instead of "oh look, it another cargo vessel form the Vorlons!".
Having the same old "BOREING" stuff for a list with no variety is just plain boreing and stupid to think that a race surpossedly as old as the Vorlon and Shadows are ment to be didnt have specific ships for specific jobs, ie escorts, carriers etc!
This is thge perfect time to add some flavour to these races, at least give them a slightly different option to what they have at the moment. where you have one style of ship with no variation!
(ok new ship is surpossed to be destroyer varient but you get what i mean!)
eldiablito
Mongoose
I have to agree here... The Vorlons and Shadows are desperately in need of a complete fleet list.
I can understand not getting a patrol option, but the Shadows are lacking a Skirmish and the Vorlons are missing a Raid.
Until that happens, the fleets are seriously lacking.
I can understand not getting a patrol option, but the Shadows are lacking a Skirmish and the Vorlons are missing a Raid.
Until that happens, the fleets are seriously lacking.
to be fair the Vorlons are getting a Raid ship - its reasonable and does the job, but nothing exciting.
The Shadows get some useful new tricks but no skirmish ship - but you can use a skirmish space station now I guess.............
no real reason not to have a skimish Shadow ship.................easily done.
The Shadows get some useful new tricks but no skirmish ship - but you can use a skirmish space station now I guess.............
no real reason not to have a skimish Shadow ship.................easily done.
All the Vorlons (and the Shadows) needed was something to fill in the gaps in their PL's. The Dreadnought is useless but the Vorlons do have a (very good) alternative.
As for the Shadows skirmish option, how about some sort of super fighter (not the fighter that got bigger thats already been suggested, just a skirmish level fighter). Something like
Heavy fighter (Skirmish)
Speed 12
Turn SM
Hull 5
Dogfight +2
Special: Atmospheric, Dodge 3+, Fighter, Shields 4/4, AF 2
Heavy Polarity Cannon 6" T 6 AP DD
I may decide this is a bad idea once sobriety hits.
Tom
As for the Shadows skirmish option, how about some sort of super fighter (not the fighter that got bigger thats already been suggested, just a skirmish level fighter). Something like
Heavy fighter (Skirmish)
Speed 12
Turn SM
Hull 5
Dogfight +2
Special: Atmospheric, Dodge 3+, Fighter, Shields 4/4, AF 2
Heavy Polarity Cannon 6" T 6 AP DD
I may decide this is a bad idea once sobriety hits.
Tom
sidewinder
Mongoose
I cant see a HEAVY fighter getting a dogfight of +2 when the regular one is +0. Or a dodge of 3+ or that many damage dice. That thing is a small ship.
mollari_uk
Mongoose
inq101 said:...
Heavy fighter (Skirmish)
Speed 12
Turn SM
Hull 5
Dogfight +2
Special: Atmospheric, Dodge 3+, Fighter, Shields 4/4, AF 2
Heavy Polarity Cannon 6" T 6 AP DD
I may decide this is a bad idea once sobriety hits.
Tom
It strikes me that this will almost never die. It can't be killed in dogfights due to too high sheilds, AF would have to be very high and lucky and so that leaves normal weapons (which probably will get dodged or out manouvered or can't be used due to being in a dogfight).
Hmm, actually I don't think it is that bad. Yes it is virtually impossible to kill in a dogfight or by AF, but they can help reduce the shields. It will be down to ships main weapons to kill it. It's like a mini White Star.
Knock the shields down to 4/2, get rid of its AF trait, and knock the weapons down to 4AD, and it looks good to me!
Knock the shields down to 4/2, get rid of its AF trait, and knock the weapons down to 4AD, and it looks good to me!
Lose the fighter trait. Lose the anti-fighter trait - either give it a beam and let it use the new anti-fighter mode in P&P, or for preference, make the gun accurate. Maybe trade a couple of AD for SAP. Make the Dodge 4+.
Then it's not a scaled up fighter, it's a scaled down Scout.
I'd love to see a Shadow fighter with a Dogfight bonus better than +0, but a Skirmish level super-fighter isn't the way - perhaps a Patrol level light fighter with better Dogfight and less powerful gun?
Then it's not a scaled up fighter, it's a scaled down Scout.
I'd love to see a Shadow fighter with a Dogfight bonus better than +0, but a Skirmish level super-fighter isn't the way - perhaps a Patrol level light fighter with better Dogfight and less powerful gun?
Didn't mean to give it a high dogfight and AF, one or the other would still work (it is a SKIRMISH point). I don't see why it can't have a good dogfight just because its bigger, look at the WS fighter.
Shields and dodge is just a case of balancing. Theres a lot of accurate weapons out there, plus e-mines, fighter swarms, AF, etc. but i did probably put it too high.
As for the gun, it's 2 of the normal fighters guns with good range. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Shields and dodge is just a case of balancing. Theres a lot of accurate weapons out there, plus e-mines, fighter swarms, AF, etc. but i did probably put it too high.
As for the gun, it's 2 of the normal fighters guns with good range. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I dont know if this was brought up before, but just had a chance to re-read the vorlon Regenerate special action, knew it doubled your self repair on the turn u sucessfully pass a cq check of 9, but didnt notice the "drift" part!
Now the only time i can see myself using Regen would be on a turn that i couldnt shoot, or on a turn when i want to GTHOOT! and being as Vorlons can not all power to engines!!!! seems a very harsh thing to hit them with!
Always considered the Regen SA a good thing to be able to have, even though it only seems to help the larger ships more than the smaller ships, but causing it to drift and not fire seems a bit to harsh!!
With a bit of luck will be PT them tonight and will make some comments back.
Now the only time i can see myself using Regen would be on a turn that i couldnt shoot, or on a turn when i want to GTHOOT! and being as Vorlons can not all power to engines!!!! seems a very harsh thing to hit them with!
Always considered the Regen SA a good thing to be able to have, even though it only seems to help the larger ships more than the smaller ships, but causing it to drift and not fire seems a bit to harsh!!
With a bit of luck will be PT them tonight and will make some comments back.
Compare it to the Shadows' merge action; to get double repair on one ship, two ships must be rendered unable to shoot, they're down to half speed, and anything which can break through the combined shield gets to hit both of them. If Scouts or Stalkers use it, they lose their stealth when they split, meaning that any damage which was repaired is probably going to be inflicted again. And unless it's a big game, two larger ships doing a merge probably means most of the fleet turned into one big sitting duck for that turn. Compared to all that, having one ship disabled for a turn is hardly anything.
The other thing is that since Vorlons have both adaptive armour and self-repair, it takes a lot of effort to do enough damage to worry one. Regenerate had better be difficult and with harsh side-effects otherwise the Vorlons become unkillable, and consequently become ornaments because nobody will want to play against them. The same applies to the Shadows; if they can double self-repair too easily, they become indestructible paperweights.
The other thing is that since Vorlons have both adaptive armour and self-repair, it takes a lot of effort to do enough damage to worry one. Regenerate had better be difficult and with harsh side-effects otherwise the Vorlons become unkillable, and consequently become ornaments because nobody will want to play against them. The same applies to the Shadows; if they can double self-repair too easily, they become indestructible paperweights.
I'll be honest and wondered if anyone would try and compare the shadow merge to the Vorlon regenerate::
Shadow merge:
NO CQ required.
No attacks allowed from eiter ships.
Speed reduced to half that of fastes ship.
Shields merged together!
Self repair for both ships added together, but only ONE ship gets repaired.
Vorlon Regenerate: (all applied if CQ is passed.)
CQ of 9
No attacks allowed.
Ship is now adrift.
Double self repair for that trun!
No CQ makes it VERY easy for shadows to repair themselves when compared to Vorlon's who have to make a CQ of 9 (usually 5+ on D6).
No attacks from anyone so zero difference there!
Shield traits added together from both ships. Quote from PT rules "forming an nearly impenetrable barrier." on the bigger ships i bet it will, when compared to vorlon who still only get basic AA. Well it only 1 ship for vorlon so cant really comment on anything there but those shields are going to be a right pain for anyone trying to get through them now!!!
Movement from vorlon is now adrift, BIG loss of any advantage here when compared to shadows, half speed of the fastest ship... That is either 8 or 10" basic meanin 4 or 5" but with Superb Manoeuvrability special rule makes that kind of pointless.
Self repair for both races is about on par.
So lets review which is better..... Shadows on two pts really
1. NO CQ
2. Can still move
Ok shadows can not shot with 2 ships but have shields to stop any hits and can still manoeuvar to where ever they want although decreased movent, vorlons will still be in weapon range and will only have managed to repair double normal SR.
Didnt manage to PT last night ran out of time, ended up testing ISA vs Raiders.
Shadow merge:
NO CQ required.
No attacks allowed from eiter ships.
Speed reduced to half that of fastes ship.
Shields merged together!
Self repair for both ships added together, but only ONE ship gets repaired.
Vorlon Regenerate: (all applied if CQ is passed.)
CQ of 9
No attacks allowed.
Ship is now adrift.
Double self repair for that trun!
No CQ makes it VERY easy for shadows to repair themselves when compared to Vorlon's who have to make a CQ of 9 (usually 5+ on D6).
No attacks from anyone so zero difference there!
Shield traits added together from both ships. Quote from PT rules "forming an nearly impenetrable barrier." on the bigger ships i bet it will, when compared to vorlon who still only get basic AA. Well it only 1 ship for vorlon so cant really comment on anything there but those shields are going to be a right pain for anyone trying to get through them now!!!
Movement from vorlon is now adrift, BIG loss of any advantage here when compared to shadows, half speed of the fastest ship... That is either 8 or 10" basic meanin 4 or 5" but with Superb Manoeuvrability special rule makes that kind of pointless.
Self repair for both races is about on par.
So lets review which is better..... Shadows on two pts really
1. NO CQ
2. Can still move
Ok shadows can not shot with 2 ships but have shields to stop any hits and can still manoeuvar to where ever they want although decreased movent, vorlons will still be in weapon range and will only have managed to repair double normal SR.
Didnt manage to PT last night ran out of time, ended up testing ISA vs Raiders.
eldiablito
Mongoose
I like what you are trying to do here, but I do disagree with your perceptions of which is a win/loss/tie for the two special actions.
IMO, this is HUGE! I might even go so far as to say that this makes the Vorlon SA better, however, the Shadow SA has some sort of evidence as seen from the show... Couldn't the ship that is not getting the advantage of self-repair still get to fire?
I certainly agree, but when would I USE the special action; probably when the vorlon cannot shoot anyway, so why would I worry about the perceived loss? Well, the shadow ships are sacrificing a second ship's firepower & the initiative sink too...Grunvald said:No CQ makes it VERY easy for shadows to repair themselves when compared to Vorlon's who have to make a CQ of 9 (usually 5+ on D6).
No attacks from anyone so zero difference there!
IMO, this is HUGE! I might even go so far as to say that this makes the Vorlon SA better, however, the Shadow SA has some sort of evidence as seen from the show... Couldn't the ship that is not getting the advantage of self-repair still get to fire?
eldiablito said:but when would I USE the special action; probably when the vorlon cannot shoot anyway, so why would I worry about the perceived loss?
That is the same point that i would use the SA, BUT with not being able to move normally in the turn i use it, only "drift" means i can not manouver away to shield myself somewhere.
eg: been shot at crit hit to systems meaning i can not shoot for a turn, so it either run away and hide or CQ9 double SR and drift a small distance, which leaves me in enemy fire range still!
Its the being stung twice No Gun and No Manouver that seems way over the top when compared to the shadows!
One or the other i'd have said is a balance thing, but when you get whacked with both i might as well stick my ship in the middle of the field and draw a big red target on it and say come a get me!!!
Tried to show a balance between the two, one being very easy to pull of and the other not being, and how one gets hurt a lot more than the other!
If people think i have made a mistake somewhere show it me and i'll take it on board and look again but right now it seems again that the vorlon Regen SA is being hit a lot more than the shadow merge. (ie harder to pull off and stung more with penalties)
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Have tried the frigates in battle, and they proved themselves very useful. Might be in part because was using the new transport figures for them, which are tiny and look harmless, cute even, so they didn't get picked on as much as they should have done.
However more seriously, the twenty damage actually makes them survivable against direct hits from battle level ships (assuming no outrageous beam rolls). The beam was also functional.
On first look at the dreadnought I was more impressed with it than most people here seam to be. For me it was a specialist role varient designed for long range destruction outside of discharge gun range.
Not necessarily as useful as the HC in all circumstances, but more durable and with more firepower at long range, these all seamed like reasonable trades considering the HC is one of the most powerful Arm PL ships out there, so a varient almost had to be less useful. Haven't yet had the chance to use it in the sort of fleet battle it's intended for, but hope to at some point.
I agree with others that the Vorlons need a carrier, just to get some fighters on the table as without them you really suffer from enemy fighters. Logically it would be a cruiser hull for the internal space to provide full fleet carrier capabilities to the fighters, and why wouldn't the vorlons make a fleet carrier if they were making a carrier at all.
However the Regeneration SA is totally useless. The only reason for taking a SA to increase your self repair rate is if the ship is in danger of dying, very soon. being adrift and unable to fire will mean that it will die, as it wouldn't need the regeneration SA if it was somewhere safe to begin with. About the only change that would make the SA useful would be if it got a normal turns self repair in the movement phase, when it declared the SA, and then got it's NORMAL self repair at the end of the turn.
Only then would the penalties of no firing and adrift under the guns of the enemy perhaps be worthwhile. Even then I'm not sure the difficulty of the SA shouldn't be 8 rather than 9.
However more seriously, the twenty damage actually makes them survivable against direct hits from battle level ships (assuming no outrageous beam rolls). The beam was also functional.
On first look at the dreadnought I was more impressed with it than most people here seam to be. For me it was a specialist role varient designed for long range destruction outside of discharge gun range.
Not necessarily as useful as the HC in all circumstances, but more durable and with more firepower at long range, these all seamed like reasonable trades considering the HC is one of the most powerful Arm PL ships out there, so a varient almost had to be less useful. Haven't yet had the chance to use it in the sort of fleet battle it's intended for, but hope to at some point.
I agree with others that the Vorlons need a carrier, just to get some fighters on the table as without them you really suffer from enemy fighters. Logically it would be a cruiser hull for the internal space to provide full fleet carrier capabilities to the fighters, and why wouldn't the vorlons make a fleet carrier if they were making a carrier at all.
However the Regeneration SA is totally useless. The only reason for taking a SA to increase your self repair rate is if the ship is in danger of dying, very soon. being adrift and unable to fire will mean that it will die, as it wouldn't need the regeneration SA if it was somewhere safe to begin with. About the only change that would make the SA useful would be if it got a normal turns self repair in the movement phase, when it declared the SA, and then got it's NORMAL self repair at the end of the turn.
Only then would the penalties of no firing and adrift under the guns of the enemy perhaps be worthwhile. Even then I'm not sure the difficulty of the SA shouldn't be 8 rather than 9.
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