Playtest rules - Narn updates

[Ripple]

For those who think that hit point equals out with not taking hits... well not sure we can really help you here.

If you get hit more you suffer more crits, crits do fun things like prevent you from firing (ie inflicting crits) or turning (ie no boresight for you) so what happens is you run into the narn being vulnerable to a number of crits more so than some others, taking more of them and then having a the issue with certain crits meaning you can't take any crit mitigating SAs. Since your are taking more crtis, and they aren't that rare, you have a much higher chance of having a no SA crit, meaning you can't get rid of the crits you have, and grab your board cause this is where the hill just keeps getting steeper til you die.

Now add in that most of the time, your 'hit point bonus for Narness' is in the 5 to ten hit point range and that one DD or TD crit has effectively removed you bonus... well you certainly took more than one extra crit in relation to things that have dodge 4/5+ and/or interceptors.

Ripple

 

[tschuma]

I had a thought, which is scarry in itself, what about allowing the Narn to use the normal Close Blast Doors with a save of +5 and Roll of Intensify Defensive Fire giveing them Intecptor 1 and Anti Fighter 1 or increasing any of these if they have them by 1. THis would keep the CBD the same and not overpowering and if they make the CQ give them a little defensive power. The only thing would be the firing all weapons at 1/2 dice for the IDF. I think this would be the llimitation for the CBD also, which should make some people happy. This would be the only limitation.

WE have found that in the 2 gaems we played the +4 has made the Narn almost a broken fleet.

Like a said, just a thought.

tschuma

 

[CZuschlag]

Per a recent playtest (posted on the sticky thread above), I agree. The top-end ships get very hard to kill, as well as being deadly; the T'Rakk, Ka'Tan, Var'Nic, and Dag'Kar appear to be too much.

The 4+ is just far, far too much.

 

[Hindsight]

I actually like the idea of a CQ to get the 4+. If you make the CQ you get it at 4+, meaning the Narn managed to pull it together enough to increase their defenses, and if they fail they take it at their normal CBD value.

Make it a check on 8, so they'd get it half the time, making it better than CBD 5, but not quite as broken as CBD 4.

 

[Cavalier1645]

I am just curious is there ever going to be any good Cruiser level Narn ships

They just nerfed the Q'Vann
and the Quan upgrade does nothing to solve any of the Narn problems vsing the Other races

I play Centauri, Earth, and Narn. Iam primary a Centauri player (so you don't have a Narn fan boy here). I'm sorry to say the Narn are one of the weakess Major races out there. All the other races got better ships in the latest addition (especially Earth) When the Q'Vann Orginally came out I said now thats a fine Narn heavy ship that was a match for most other navies major cap ships, but now it has been Nerfed and its no better than a Bin Tak.

The close blast door does't help much against crits and the Ive utterly destroyed Quans and even Q'Vann (the old verson) with a Squadron of Demos and Vorchans (let alone a Marathon)

Stop Nerfing there ships (they don't need the readdjustment they were fine as is)

 

[Target]

The G'Varhn is way overpowered. Our Narn player couldn't believe the stats. The supposed nerf hasn't done anything to the weapons. That is actually what kills you.
It has 2 turns & the nastiest fwd arc. If you have stealth or dodge it 45" e mines get you. No interceptors it has some nice precise weapons to get you & 2 beams one is TD & fwd but alas it is only 25".
Forgot the AJP.
In no way is this ship balanced. BinTak would get trashed by it.

 

[Foxmeister]

The G'Varhn is way overpowered. Our Narn player couldn't believe the stats. The supposed nerf hasn't done anything to the weapons. That is actually what kills you.
It has 2 turns & the nastiest fwd arc. If you have stealth or dodge it 45" e mines get you. No interceptors it has some nice precise weapons to get you & 2 beams one is TD & fwd but alas it is only 25".
Forgot the AJP.
In no way is this ship balanced. BinTak would get trashed by it.

I vehemently disagree that the G'Vrahn is overpowered - it's more that all the other War level ships are underpowered which is subtle but significant difference. IMHO, if all the War level ships were brought up to the level of the G'Vrahn we'd see a lot more of them fielded and fewer swarm issues.

Of course, I don't expect to see that happen, so if I were to further "nerf" the G'Vrahn I would swap its e-mine over with the one on the Bin'Tak which would also serve to make the Bin'Tak a better choice.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

Per a recent playtest (posted on the sticky thread above), I agree. The top-end ships get very hard to kill, as well as being deadly; the T'Rakk, Ka'Tan, Var'Nic, and Dag'Kar appear to be too much.

The 4+ is just far, far too much.

I'm yet to be convinced that the 4+ CBD is overpowered for the vast majority of Narn ships. If you are using that SA, you are not using another and you often need to using different SAs. In the game I played the other week against Minbari, my G'Quan using CBD lasted long enough to get into 8" range of my opponent but had to drop CBD to use its very seldom used secondaries - of course I failed to break stealth and the G'Quan was just 3HPs away from being crippled at that point.

However, I'm not a fan of the 4+ CBD for a very different reason. The whole point was that P&P is going to bring something "cool" to each fleet and somehow, the 4+ CBD just doesn't seem "cool" to me.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Da Boss]

my problem is that it does not help the ships its supposed to - if that was the intention.

something cool for the Narn - hmm a really shiny collar :wink:

seriously any good ideas ?

my "Offensive Interceptors" and "Gravitc Engines" ideas went down quite well but can't think about any Narnish things.......... :?:

 

[Cavalier1645]

The G'Varhn is way overpowered. Our Narn player couldn't believe the stats. The supposed nerf hasn't done anything to the weapons. That is actually what kills you.
It has 2 turns & the nastiest fwd arc. If you have stealth or dodge it 45" e mines get you. No interceptors it has some nice precise weapons to get you & 2 beams one is TD & fwd but alas it is only 25".
Forgot the AJP.
In no way is this ship balanced. BinTak would get trashed by it.

Off course the Bintak would get trashed its an older ship. One problem is the Narn (and almost of the other races don't have a list like earth denoting diffrent era of ships) By the time the G'Vrann was introduced the Bintak had bin replaced by the Ka'Bintak or relgated to lesser roles. Yes the G'vann is a powerful ship (in the old rules) but it was a War level ship it suppose to be powerful. If want to compare to ship like it look at the Earth Warlock, Minbari Sharlin (and its nasty variants), Bakuri War Cruiser and the Shadow Cruiser. For the record it not over powering, I had no trouble in disabling a G'Vrann with a Squadron of Demos. The interceptors give the G'Vann survivablity, something the narn ships don't have (which for the life of me I don't understand a major military power doesn't have it on most of their ships).

 

[Da Boss]

The G'Varhn is way overpowered. Our Narn player couldn't believe the stats. The supposed nerf hasn't done anything to the weapons. That is actually what kills you.
It has 2 turns & the nastiest fwd arc. If you have stealth or dodge it 45" e mines get you. No interceptors it has some nice precise weapons to get you & 2 beams one is TD & fwd but alas it is only 25".
Forgot the AJP.
In no way is this ship balanced. BinTak would get trashed by it.

Off course the Bintak would get trashed its an older ship. One problem is the Narn (and almost of the other races don't have a list like earth denoting diffrent era of ships) By the time the G'Vrann was introduced the Bintak had bin replaced by the Ka'Bintak or relgated to lesser roles. Yes the G'vann is a powerful ship (in the old rules) but it was a War level ship it suppose to be powerful. If want to compare to ship like it look at the Earth Warlock, Minbari Sharlin (and its nasty variants), Bakuri War Cruiser and the Shadow Cruiser. For the record it not over powering, I had no trouble in disabling a G'Vrann with a Squadron of Demos. The interceptors give the G'Vann survivablity, something the narn ships don't have (which for the life of me I don't understand a major military power doesn't have it on most of their ships).

Most things will get disabled by our beloved Demos - thats why it went down as well!

Interceptor tech - yeah its odd - several races who have it don't put it on their capital ships...........

Brakiri, Centauri (which is why you are better off............)

 

[Target]

The G'Varhn is way overpowered. Our Narn player couldn't believe the stats. The supposed nerf hasn't done anything to the weapons. That is actually what kills you.
It has 2 turns & the nastiest fwd arc. If you have stealth or dodge it 45" e mines get you. No interceptors it has some nice precise weapons to get you & 2 beams one is TD & fwd but alas it is only 25".
Forgot the AJP.
In no way is this ship balanced. BinTak would get trashed by it.

Off course the Bintak would get trashed its an older ship. One problem is the Narn (and almost of the other races don't have a list like earth denoting diffrent era of ships) By the time the G'Vrann was introduced the Bintak had bin replaced by the Ka'Bintak or relgated to lesser roles. Yes the G'vann is a powerful ship (in the old rules) but it was a War level ship it suppose to be powerful. If want to compare to ship like it look at the Earth Warlock, Minbari Sharlin (and its nasty variants), Bakuri War Cruiser and the Shadow Cruiser. For the record it not over powering, I had no trouble in disabling a G'Vrann with a Squadron of Demos. The interceptors give the G'Vann survivablity, something the narn ships don't have (which for the life of me I don't understand a major military power doesn't have it on most of their ships).

Yes Demos to kill nearly anything. It's better than a Warlock the 2 turns with 2 beams is why it's better . I seen one on Sat takeout a Warlock & then had some spare weapons which then hit a Raptor (yes the crapiest ship) & nearly killed it as well. Just use fighters for interceptors.
Interceptors are only good vs interceptable weapons. Most big ships have beams like the G 'Varhn. I'd rip the e-mines off as well. It's still a hunter ship. I wouldn't have a problem as Fox said if most War ships went up to that level power.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Off course the Bintak would get trashed its an older ship.

Worst reasoning EVER.

The Bintak is a War level ship and as such should fair just as well as ANY other war level ship. Its age has nothing to do with it. Priority ISN'T a measure of age. If it were, all Shadow and Vorlon ships would be Armageddon, they've been around for millennia.

But its not. Its a measure of strength. If something should 'get trashed' because its older then it shouldn't BE a war level ship.

That's called 'Being Broken'

 

[Ike]

actually the bintak probably has an over inflated Priorty lvl due to the abundance of secondaries that never get used

strip all those out and drop it about 20 damage and you get a good battle ship

 

[stepan.razin]

I'm sorry to say the Narn are one of the weakess Major races out there. All the other races got better ships in the latest addition (especially Earth) When the Q'Vann Orginally came out I said now thats a fine Narn heavy ship that was a match for most other navies major cap ships, but now it has been Nerfed and its no better than a Bin Tak.

I would have to say people would have to be blind to look at the G'Varn and not say, "thats a fine Narn heavy ship" considering its probably the best War level ship in the game.

Can you explain why you think the Narn are the weakest fleet in the game? The only weakness I can see is a lack of a good Battle level ship, but then half the races lack a decent ship at one priority level or another. Perhaps you can list a few weaknesses?

IMHO, it and the Centauri are 2 best fleets in the game (not counting Shadows and Vorlons). There is not a fleet out there that the Narn are at a disadvantage against.

 

[Greg Smith]

Where do Narn fall down:

Battle-level ships, as you said.

Fighters - they have no fleet carrier, no dogfighters, no bombers (ie with range over 2"), and low AF dice. E-mines make up for that, a bit, but any determined enemy will keep his own fighters spread out enough - besides you probably want to be dropping those triple damage mines on ships.

Boresight. More than 50% of the fleet has boresight weapons, more than any other fleet except the Drazi.

Secondary weapons - they have plenty of dice, but lack range and armour penetrating traits.

Manueverability - combined with boresight, this can be a pain in the rear. Once a Ka'toc has completed its first attack run it can usually be found circling the battlefield trying to turn in and get back into the fight.

There is an idea that the Narn have more damage points than other fleets, but that isn't really true except in a couple of cases. The G'Quan only has 3 more points than the Primus and has less than the Avioki.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Where do Narn fall down:

Battle-level ships, as you said.

Fighters - they have no fleet carrier, no dogfighters, no bombers (ie with range over 2"), and low AF dice. E-mines make up for that, a bit, but any determined enemy will keep his own fighters spread out enough - besides you probably want to be dropping those triple damage mines on ships.

Boresight. More than 50% of the fleet has boresight weapons, more than any other fleet except the Drazi.

Secondary weapons - they have plenty of dice, but lack range and armour penetrating traits.

Manueverability - combined with boresight, this can be a pain in the rear. Once a Ka'toc has completed its first attack run it can usually be found circling the battlefield trying to turn in and get back into the fight.

There is an idea that the Narn have more damage points than other fleets, but that isn't really true except in a couple of cases. The G'Quan only has 3 more points than the Primus and has less than the Avioki.

To add to that, slow speed makes it nearly impossible to get the short range secondaries to be a factor in a fight.

Tzarevitch

 

[Greg Smith]

They are pretty much the only race other than the raiders that uses weapons with no traits at all (even Dilgar pulsars have MoD).

And they have no defences. Nothing to stop hits or crits, or reduce damage in any way. It is quite amusing to watch players shoot at your Narn ships, roll their hits and then look at you expectantly, waiting for you to roll inteceptors or dodge.

 

[l33tpenguin]

They are pretty much the only race other than the raiders that uses weapons with no traits at all (even Dilgar pulsars have MoD).

And they have no defences. Nothing to stop hits or crits, or reduce damage in any way. It is quite amusing to watch players shoot at your Narn ships, roll their hits and then look at you expectantly, waiting for you to roll inteceptors or dodge.

Hey, don't forget they have a lot of slow loading and one shot!

 

[stepan.razin]

Where do Narn fall down:

Battle-level ships, as you said.

Fighters - they have no fleet carrier, no dogfighters, no bombers (ie with range over 2"), and low AF dice. E-mines make up for that, a bit, but any determined enemy will keep his own fighters spread out enough - besides you probably want to be dropping those triple damage mines on ships.

Boresight. More than 50% of the fleet has boresight weapons, more than any other fleet except the Drazi.

Secondary weapons - they have plenty of dice, but lack range and armour penetrating traits.

Manueverability - combined with boresight, this can be a pain in the rear. Once a Ka'toc has completed its first attack run it can usually be found circling the battlefield trying to turn in and get back into the fight.

There is an idea that the Narn have more damage points than other fleets, but that isn't really true except in a couple of cases. The G'Quan only has 3 more points than the Primus and has less than the Avioki.

Just MHO:

Fighters - This is not a weakness, just lack of strength. Just means that you cant use fighters as offensive weapons. Not like enemy fighers live long enough against the Narn. Don't the Narn have non-TD EM.. that fire every turn... use that to take out the dangerous bombers.

Maneuverability: yeah, they are not ISA, but they have plenty of ships that are fast and maneuverable enough. G'Varn is the best example.

Boresight - with all those 2 for 1 ships that you have, using your boresight is not a problem. Besides, EA beams are all B, and they dont have the init sinks that the Narn do.

Secondaries - I agree, a weakness, but hardly a big one given the primary weapons that they have.

Besides, take a look at the Narn vs. Other fleets and see if the Narn are at a big disadvantage here. Assume that both admirals know what they are doing.


This is just my opinion:

Narn vs Centauri - about even odds
Narn vs ISA - ISA better bring Vaseline
Narn vs Mimbari - adv Narn
Narn vs EA (early) - Even odds
Narn vs EA (TA) - even odds ( edge to the Narn, IMHO)
Narn vs Crusade - even odds
Narn vs Brakiri - adv Narn
Narn vs Vree - adv Narn
Narn vs Gaim - Gaim stand no chance.
Narn vs Abbai - adv Narn
Narn vs Drazi - Drazi stand no chance
Narn vs Psi Core - adv Narn
Narn vs Dilgar - even odds
Narn vs Drakh - adv Narn