Playtest rules - Narn updates

[CZuschlag]

I play Narn. I did rather well with them in 1e, but have done less well with them in 2e.

The big question is, is there any ship that you would put on CBD that you wouldn't before? I personally don't think there is.

In which case, it provides an average of 1/6 more damage resistance than previously - equal or worse than a depleted interceptor. On the Dag'kar, that is every other turn, or equivalent to 1/12 more damage and crew, about 2.5 more damage points and 3 more crew.

I'm afraid your math is incorrect. Your effective damage goes up by 33%:

5+ saves --> 33% of damage misses --> 1/(1-0.33) improvement --> 150% of original ship.

4+ saves --> 50% of damage misses --> 1/(1-0.50) improvement --> 200% of original ship.

Net upgrade = 200%/150% --> 33% upgrade.

That's a ton!

And, as I've said before, with this rule I would almost NEVER take a Dag'Kar off Close Blast Doors, ever.

CBD is very likely on with these ships, giving them effectively a 33% buff:

-- Ka'Tan (almost always)
-- Sho'Kov (always, period)
-- Sho'Kar (almost always)
-- Var'Nic
-- Rothan (almost always)

Others leverage it powerfully. I again am ... skeptical. Haven't proven anything over the board yet (we're locally still doing our Drazi trials.)

 

[Hindsight]

A Dag'kar that already fired its E Mines, gets CBD for free, and I'd be tempted to just keep it on CBD when they aren't on Slow Reload unless I was damn sure they'd be left alone. So the Dag'Kar gets a huge bonus after it fires, as theres no reason not to CBD. IE it is only a benefit, you aren't losing any fire power as it doesn't let you use a gun that you couldn't use anyway.

Unless people are using CBD wrong...

 

[Greg Smith]

Hindsight, that is correct. But the issue is not whether it gets to close blast doors, it is whether the extra benefit from the new Narn CBD is too good.

 

[Hindsight]

I think 4+ CBD for Narn's would be fine, but some of the other changes to the fleets seem to nerf and buff in various degrees, if the Narns are suddenly more hardy, and harder to kill, I'd hope that some of the nerfs are reconsidered, and that the CBD change does not table the Narn Bore Sight discussions, as it seems that the G'Quan and other key ships are in greater need of love than the CBD benefit to just them.

I didn't know a White Star had blast doors... why can I close mine? Maybe ships with Adaptive Armor can't CBD at all? I dunno.

 

[silashand]

I didn't know a White Star had blast doors... why can I close mine? Maybe ships with Adaptive Armor can't CBD at all? I dunno.

I think Instead of "Close Blast Doors and Activate Defense Grid" it's called "Close Blast Orifice and Pucker" in the case of the White Star and other psuedo-organic ships ;-).

Cheers, Gary

 

[Ike]

CBD-
Out to lunch on this one, I dont think it affects much for my style of play, meaning the only ship I would use it on is the Sho'Kov and only because it does it anyways

It's definitely the Sho'Kov that's the one broken ship with this rule. The irony being if it didn't have its piddly little weak gun then it would be fine!

Fear the 4AD turret mounted 'cough'weak'cough' gun.... Ive killed atleast 6 fighters with it

although i have been going back to Sho'Kos lately and it might make them even more annoying, as I could probably get them around for a 2nd pass, which equates to fun for me


G'Quan(and variants)
still not using it. the problem is not with the things armour and hull or its wonderfully small 4AD beam, its the rest of it

the other weapons are all over the place, range 8 and speed 5/6 lumbering means only other big slow ships are going to come into range of them, if the battle lasts that long and 10AD TL and 6/8?AD Nothing just really doesnt do anything against hull 6, and hardly anything against hull 5

math wise against a hull 6 ship assuming 8 AD on the other secondary(dont have my book on me) you get
10/6+10*5/6*1/6+8/6=4.4 hits
even if you crit with your massive 4.4 hits out of 18AD your only doing *1 damage

you need to get these things in the middle of a bunch of low hull ships and with its speed and mauverability its just not happening

Take 2 Var'Nics, so much better

the only way these things would be any good as they stand if is they could to a version 1.1 Centauri wolf pack. atleast someone would shoot them then and they would take damage, as is usually any GQuan I field leaves the battle with 10 or 12 damage on it simply because the ship shooting it didnt have anything else to shoot at

I would really like to field this iconic ship more often, but as cool as it is in the show, its just not worth taking to a fight unless we are goofing around

GVrahn
Sadly I dont think they addressed the major problem as i see it (from a guy who likes to squadron 2 gVrahn and let them go kill things). I love the GVrahn and dont really want to see them changed, but these things are war lvl hunter killers, if your in front of it your dead.

losing hull and interceptors will make them more vulnerable to long range return fire but over all not that much of an issue, you just have something to do with your frazis that otheriwse would of just gone and gotten killed

i think losing command is a bigger hurt on the current variation, being able to shoot first and possible destroying your target before he even has a chance to return fire is so much nicer then getting shot.

would much rather see a weapons load out chance, lose the AEmine for a regular Emine, do you really need to start shooting people at 45" (although extremely satisfying)

as sad as I am to say it I would proplby try and beef up its staying power, possibly even upgrading its secondary weapons (which are uselss) and down grade some of its front weapons

but dont due this as it would ruin what I love about the GVrahn

 

[CZuschlag]

We're starting to see some of the playtest results of the new Narn, and the reports of the effects of CBD at 4+ are starting to get alarming. I want to bring this back to the top in case we need to reconsider what we might want to do about it.

I don't have enough to make a blanket statement yet, but it's showing up on my radar as a significant concern.

 

[Court Jester]

Why not just say something like Narn ships don't take extra damage from the Crit chart, except for catastrophic rolls...

 

[Target]

Why not just say something like Narn ships don't take extra damage from the Crit chart, except for catastrophic rolls...

or td becomes dd, dd becomes single dam & suffer 1/2 from single dam rounding down

 

[skavendan]

We're starting to see some of the playtest results of the new Narn, and the reports of the effects of CBD at 4+ are starting to get alarming. I want to bring this back to the top in case we need to reconsider what we might want to do about it.

I don't have enough to make a blanket statement yet, but it's showing up on my radar as a significant concern.

It does seem very effective. I might suggest for narns:

Narn CBD: 5+ save can only be critical hit on a 6 and a 6 save Vs critical damage.

This would reduce the number of crits which where the problem in the first place being crited out of the game.

 

[CZuschlag]

Ripple separately suggested the very similar 6+ save against all critical effects while under CD as the additional Narn benefit; this avenue has a good deal of promise.

 

[eldiablito]

This is just to throw more fuel on this "hopefully" funeral pyre... CBD 4+ is too good. I saw some decent White Star flying just get torn to pieces because the Narn patrol boats were used to allow time for the e-mines to line up on all the white and blue stars. Even with the narn player totally flubbing nearly all his rolls, he still won. ...Just hoping that we never see this special rule come into existence.

We should focus on how to make the G'Quan better, not worry about an OtT special rule.

 

[stepan.razin]

If the goal is to represent how much tougher Narn ships are compared to others, why not just increase the hit points a bit.

Also, this may just be the opinion of my entire gaming group, but the Narn are already an elite fleet.... how is it going to be balanced if CBD 4+ is allowed.

 

[skavendan]

If the goal is to represent how much tougher Narn ships are compared to others, why not just increase the hit points a bit.

Also, this may just be the opinion of my entire gaming group, but the Narn are already an elite fleet.... how is it going to be balanced if CBD 4+ is allowed.

Not this AGAIN Hitpoints do NOTHING.

More hitpoints means more fighters can attack you per turn. 2 they offer no damage protection against the real problem Crits.

I don't like the current CBD rule. I think for all races it should be Halfs AD all weapons, 5+ save, 6 ONLY to crit. As even a precise weapon with the blast doors down would find it harder to hit home.

 

[Leadman]

If the goal is to represent how much tougher Narn ships are compared to others, why not just increase the hit points a bit.

Also, this may just be the opinion of my entire gaming group, but the Narn are already an elite fleet.... how is it going to be balanced if CBD 4+ is allowed.

Not this AGAIN Hitpoints do NOTHING.

More hitpoints means more fighters can attack you per turn. 2 they offer no damage protection against the real problem Crits.

I don't like the current CBD rule. I think for all races it should be Halfs AD all weapons, 5+ save, 6 ONLY to crit. As even a precise weapon with the blast doors down would find it harder to hit home.

Allowing half AD with CBD is a big mistake (but so is CBD 4+ for the Narn). Ships with only one weapon system will be able to CBD and shoot. If people think Xaars and Xeels are tough now, see how they are when they can CBD and still fire.

A solution may come out of VAS. If a crit is scored on a Narn ship, roll a D6. On a 4+ the crit counts as normal. Otherwise, it just counts as regular damage.

Dannie
The Narn player with bad dice

 

[stepan.razin]

If the goal is to represent how much tougher Narn ships are compared to others, why not just increase the hit points a bit.

Also, this may just be the opinion of my entire gaming group, but the Narn are already an elite fleet.... how is it going to be balanced if CBD 4+ is allowed.

Not this AGAIN Hitpoints do NOTHING.

More hitpoints means more fighters can attack you per turn. 2 they offer no damage protection against the real problem Crits.

I don't like the current CBD rule. I think for all races it should be Halfs AD all weapons, 5+ save, 6 ONLY to crit. As even a precise weapon with the blast doors down would find it harder to hit home.

Tell that to Vree or Crusade players. My Apollos usually die due to damage long before they loose their usefulness. Damage ABSOLUTELY matters in this game.... heavily critted ships, while not able to kill, still count toward initiative and they dont give your opponent VP.

A Dagkar adrift, that lost all its traits, has 5 -1 to speeds, No SA, -1 AD, is still a threat.

This rule needs to be thrown out without any kind of NARN only replacement.

 

[Leadman]

This is just to throw more fuel on this "hopefully" funeral pyre... CBD 4+ is too good. I saw some decent White Star flying just get torn to pieces because the Narn patrol boats were used to allow time for the e-mines to line up on all the white and blue stars. Even with the narn player totally flubbing nearly all his rolls, he still won. ...Just hoping that we never see this special rule come into existence.

We should focus on how to make the G'Quan better, not worry about an OtT special rule.

That's not exactly what happened. In fact, that's not what happened at all. I believe that I killed one and it might have been two White Stars. And it wasn't with E Mines. It was with TD and DD beams. Do't get me wrong, I think CBD 4+ is way over the top and certainly helped the Narn win the game. Very little of the E Mines were directed at the White/Blue Stars and the Sho'Kovs had a minimal effect on the battle. The main reason the Narn won that battle was because of a tactical error by the ISA.

I think that CBD 4+ for the Narn is a bad idea, but let's try and keep the facts straight.

I think forcing the 2 for 1s to squadron up is a good idea, but I would like to see the Squadron distance increased to 7 inches just for these ships.

Dannie
Looking for classes in Die rolling

 

[katadder]

more hitpoints only effects suicide fighters. the rest of the fighters just attack if they get in range like any other ship.
narn ships tend to have more hitpoints to make up for lack of defences.

 

[Ripple]

Just usually no more than one crits worth, so not enough to account for the extra crits they take. That remains the issue... but both because of damage and effects. One extra crit getting through can cause two to three times the multiplier or more, or well more than five to ten points many Narn get extra.

Ripple

 

[CZuschlag]

Perhaps, Ripple, but effect or not, I don't think the Ka'Toc, Thentus, T'Rakk, or Dag'Kar need any improvement!

Let's try this version of the CBD enhancement on for size:

Close Blast Doors:

While some ships can brace for impact, no ship quite does it like the large, multiply-redundant and massive Narn ships.

In addition to the normal effects of the Close Blast Doors special action, all Lumbering Narn ships that take this special order can avoid the special effect of a critical hit on a CQ check of 9 (roll once for each critical hit).

(This would affect the T'Loth, T'Rann, G'Quan, G'Quonth, G'Lan, Bin'Tak (!), and Ka'Bin'Tak(!!)).

I'd apply it to the Rothan and Rongoth if I could, too --- but that is a bit of a hope.