Playtest rules - Narn updates

[Foxmeister]

Besides, take a look at the Narn vs. Other fleets and see if the Narn are at a big disadvantage here. Assume that both admirals know what they are doing.

I know it's your opinion, but in my experience your list is way out.

Now, in my opinion, the Narn is the weakest of the 5 "major" powers with the Centauri probably the strongest due to having excellent selections at all PLs bar War.

The Narn are nowhere near the weakest list in the book, and have some very strong ships, and a very large selection of ships. However, many of the ships in the list are simply not worth taking so might as well not be there - I'm looking at you Rongoth/Rothan!

Also, at Battle level, there is no real choice - you have 3 variants of the same poor hull which even if you take the proposed P&P "fixes" into account are still not a patch on a Var'Nic/Dag'Kar combination.

The Narn have supposedly "tougher" ships than the other races than other races, but it doesn't take much investigation to show that this isn't true with just a couple of exceptions. Even if it were, more HPs are no match for active defenses anyway. They also have buckets of AD in secondaries, but mostly with no other traits, and at a range which means they are seldom able to be used.

The Narn have 3 standout ships in my book -

The G'Vrahn - for obvious reasons
The Var'Nic - a very solid Raid level ship, but it's no WS,
The Dag'Kar - the bane of many, but easy to kill and very specialized.

If you take a 5 White Star list, it's a good list and a reasonable match up for almost any 5 pt Raid list, with the probably exception of the 5 Dag'Kar list (which would be the ISA nightmare). However, that 5 Dag'Kar list is very specialized and would fair nowhere near as well as the WS list against most other 5pt Raid lists.

So, my chart (my opinion of course!) would look very different to yours:

Narn vs Centauri - Adv Centauri
Narn vs ISA - Adv ISA
Narn vs Minbari - Adv Minbari
Narn vs EA (early) - Adv EA
Narn vs EA (TA) - Adv EA
Narn vs Crusade - Evens
Narn vs Brakiri - Evens
Narn vs Vree - Adv Vree
Narn vs Gaim - Adv Gaim
Narn vs Abbai - Adv Narn
Narn vs Drazi - Adv Narn
Narn vs Psi Core - Evens (would edge to Narn except for EA allies)
Narn vs Dilgar - Evens
Narn vs Drakh - Adv Drakh

Of course, it's all highly subjective, and I seriously doubt that anyone would agree with all of it, but I'm fairly certain that many would agree with most of it.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Da Boss]

Im my experience the present Narn fleet should loose against a Centauri fleet (as the Great Maker intended) - especially if they bring their poor excuse for a Battle level ship (any of them).

As a Centauri player suits me fine - however in reality the Narn shoudl either get a wholly new battle level choice or make the present ones actually worth taking. ...........

 

[Cavalier1645]

Where do Narn fall down:

Battle-level ships, as you said.

Fighters - they have no fleet carrier, no dogfighters, no bombers (ie with range over 2"), and low AF dice. E-mines make up for that, a bit, but any determined enemy will keep his own fighters spread out enough - besides you probably want to be dropping those triple damage mines on ships.

Boresight. More than 50% of the fleet has boresight weapons, more than any other fleet except the Drazi.

Secondary weapons - they have plenty of dice, but lack range and armour penetrating traits.

Manueverability - combined with boresight, this can be a pain in the rear. Once a Ka'toc has completed its first attack run it can usually be found circling the battlefield trying to turn in and get back into the fight.

There is an idea that the Narn have more damage points than other fleets, but that isn't really true except in a couple of cases. The G'Quan only has 3 more points than the Primus and has less than the Avioki.

Just MHO:

Fighters - This is not a weakness, just lack of strength. Just means that you cant use fighters as offensive weapons. Not like enemy fighers live long enough against the Narn. Don't the Narn have non-TD EM.. that fire every turn... use that to take out the dangerous bombers.

Maneuverability: yeah, they are not ISA, but they have plenty of ships that are fast and maneuverable enough. G'Varn is the best example.

Boresight - with all those 2 for 1 ships that you have, using your boresight is not a problem. Besides, EA beams are all B, and they dont have the init sinks that the Narn do.

Secondaries - I agree, a weakness, but hardly a big one given the primary weapons that they have.

Besides, take a look at the Narn vs. Other fleets and see if the Narn are at a big disadvantage here. Assume that both admirals know what they are doing.


This is just my opinion:

Narn vs Centauri - about even odds
Narn vs ISA - ISA better bring Vaseline
Narn vs Mimbari - adv Narn
Narn vs EA (early) - Even odds
Narn vs EA (TA) - even odds ( edge to the Narn, IMHO)
Narn vs Crusade - even odds
Narn vs Brakiri - adv Narn
Narn vs Vree - adv Narn
Narn vs Gaim - Gaim stand no chance.
Narn vs Abbai - adv Narn
Narn vs Drazi - Drazi stand no chance
Narn vs Psi Core - adv Narn
Narn vs Dilgar - even odds
Narn vs Drakh - adv Narn

Ok here is my experience on Narn vs Other Fleets

Narn vs Centauri - Centauri
Narn vs ISA - Depends if Narn can use e-mine properly
Narn vs Mimbari - adv Minbari
Narn vs EA (early) - Narn Adv
Narn vs EA (TA) - even odds
Narn vs Crusade - Earth eats Narn for breakfast (along with most races)
Narn vs Brakiri - adv Narn
Narn vs Vree - adv Narn
Narn vs Gaim - Gaim can win if they use good tactics
Narn vs Abbai - adv Narn
Narn vs Drazi - Even
Narn vs Psi Core - See Crusade Earth
Narn vs Dilgar - Dilgar adv
Narn vs Drakh - Drakh adv

Fighters - Narn fighters are anti ship fighters, but lack any way to engage the ships with out geting torn apart by other race's fighters and anti fighter from cap ship.

Maneuverability: Yea, but the maneuverable ships are small like the Demos (but lack the interceptor to keep it alive and slower).

Boresight - Yes but Earth and lot of races will out manuever the narn boresight.

Secondaries - I agree, a weakness, makes the enemy just keep closeing on the Narn ships

 

[Greg Smith]

Just MHO:

Fighters - This is not a weakness, just lack of strength. Just means that you cant use fighters as offensive weapons. Not like enemy fighers live long enough against the Narn. Don't the Narn have non-TD EM.. that fire every turn... use that to take out the dangerous bombers.

One ship has a pulsar mine. And a canny enemy will spread his fighters out preventing you from nailing more than a couple.

Maneuverability: yeah, they are not ISA, but they have plenty of ships that are fast and maneuverable enough. G'Varn is the best example.

No. The Vorchan is fast and manueverable, the G'Vrahn isn't. The G'Vrahn actually looks pretty good compared to most of the Narn fleet though.

Boresight - with all those 2 for 1 ships that you have, using your boresight is not a problem. Besides, EA beams are all B, and they dont have the init sinks that the Narn do.

Lets look at boresight quantities:
Drazi: 15/15
Narn: 13/22
Early EA 6/20
Crusade EA: 6/16
3rd Age EA: 5/15
Brakiri:4/15
Psi Corps 3/6
Raiders: 2/4

Secondaries - I agree, a weakness, but hardly a big one given the primary weapons that they have.

What do you consider good about the Narn primaries? One-shot non-critting emines? Non-precise beams? Narn have a couple of good weapons - the ion torpedo, and the mag gun (and that usually has too few AD to be really useful).

Narn vs Centauri - about even odds

Really? Those Vorchans get past the beams and happily sit outside you secondary range and blow the **** out of your ships. If the Centauri takes slow line ships, maybe, but against typical fast centauri fleets, no chance.

Narn vs ISA - ISA better bring Vaseline
Narn vs Mimbari - adv Narn

Hmm, if the Narn build their fleet specifically to deal with these two, they can do well. But once the Whitestars get past the front of the Narn ships, it is all over. When a Whitestar gets past a Dag'kar, it is not pretty.

 

[H]

Sigh, the Bin'Tak isn't useless. The Bin'Tak could take on almost all other warships with a fair chance of sucess. It's a beast. The Bin'Tak has never been weak, and Indeed never will be. The Issue obviously comes down to the G'Vrahn, as has been discussed many many times. the Obvious solution that was touted was to switch the one shot on the e-mines to the G'Vrahn. It's a smaller ship, so makes sense eh? and lo you have an e-mine heavy command ship, or a now slightly nerfed sniper that is still quite superb.

As to the Narn strength and weakness. The Narn have several standoutships, and then sevearl doozies. I find it amusing that the Ka'Toc has barely changed, and used to be called cheese, but now barely elicits a mention due to the general powercreep of the game, meaning it has been surpassed. The same can be said of the frazi, it was never cheesy but it was acknowledged as one of the premier anti ship fighters early on, but then AF took over from your generally weak AF guns, every man and his dog got uberfighters and again the narn stood still. . . the same in some respects goes to the G'Quan. When the game launched, it was a bloody good ship, not least because the E-Mines could crit, then they couldn't, but it still had it's e-mine varients in 2 tubes, and then the e-mine "fix" occured and the poor G'Quan tumbled to a desperate mans choice, though the G'Lan just about hung in as a viable battleship. . . The Narn fleet has several staple ships, then numerous vesels that you just don't think about using. Who even really looks at a Rongoth/Rothan? or a t'rakk? and then of course the G'Sten and G'Quanth, and bizarely amongst many, the Bin'Tak.

Despite the Above, the narn still have a nifty patrol 2 fer, the ka'Tok, Thentus and Sho'Kar at skirmish, the Dag'Kar and G'Karith at raid (admitedly specialist) and the excelent var'Nic, then 2 of the games premier warships.

it is not the narn Fleet thatas such that is the problem, it has been mostly consistent through many many changes, it is the game designs power creep, this happens in most games anyway, but if you look at Burgers ship viewer and compare some of the vessels there to their counterparts, you will see what I mean.

I've been mildly amused by the narn beats ea, narn looses to isa etc, all these are subjective really based upon player skill, fleet selection and so on, the narn fleet isn't so strong it will always win against one opponent, or suitably weak it will always loose against a different opponent. What it is is a tad one dimensional, but then so are several other fleets. The Narn like many other fleets have just fallen behind as new fleets come along with funky new powers, but then thats how you sell new fleets anyway! This issue of course is now moot with mini's production gone, so who knows.

Key issues for me on the narn is NOT giving them improved CBD, it is making the fleet choices that are a bit unloved more purpose, the Rongoth, the G'Quanth, heck, the G'Quan. we have seen 5 or so alternative G'Quanths in the G'Quanth thread, the general consensus seems to be for a real close in bruiser (but with speed 5, will it ever get there?), I have sent katadder a new Rothan varient to look at, and i am Sure as at least a part time Narn, Greg is looking at ways to work the fleet too. and I would also ask again that the E-mines on the Bin'Tak and G'Vrahn are at least looked at swapping one shot ;-)
wouldn't mind a Frazi Mk2 (or the to-reth bomber) as an alternative fighter as well
but you know what, whatever happens, the Narn are still one of the best goddamn looking fleets in the game, the G'Quan may be a waste of points compared to two var'Nics, but it looks so amazing that you just have to have one in your fleet!

 

[Greg Smith]

...as at least a part time Narn, Greg ...

I like that.

 

[Da Boss]

at weekends is it G'Reg :wink:

 

[Foxmeister]

but you know what, whatever happens, the Narn are still one of the best goddamn looking fleets in the game, the G'Quan may be a waste of points compared to two var'Nics, but it looks so amazing that you just have to have one in your fleet!

I take great exception to your first comment here - what do you mean one of the best looking fleets? It *is* the best looking fleet in the game, bar none!

An the G'Quan - well for "primitive agrarians", the Narn clearly know an awful lot about art and aesthetics but sadly bugger all about building combat worthy starships!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Cavalier1645]

Sigh, the Bin'Tak isn't useless. The Bin'Tak could take on almost all other warships with a fair chance of sucess. It's a beast. The Bin'Tak has never been weak, and Indeed never will be. The Issue obviously comes down to the G'Vrahn, as has been discussed many many times. the Obvious solution that was touted was to switch the one shot on the e-mines to the G'Vrahn. It's a smaller ship, so makes sense eh? and lo you have an e-mine heavy command ship, or a now slightly nerfed sniper that is still quite superb.

As to the Narn strength and weakness. The Narn have several standoutships, and then sevearl doozies. I find it amusing that the Ka'Toc has barely changed, and used to be called cheese, but now barely elicits a mention due to the general powercreep of the game, meaning it has been surpassed. The same can be said of the frazi, it was never cheesy but it was acknowledged as one of the premier anti ship fighters early on, but then AF took over from your generally weak AF guns, every man and his dog got uberfighters and again the narn stood still. . . the same in some respects goes to the G'Quan. When the game launched, it was a bloody good ship, not least because the E-Mines could crit, then they couldn't, but it still had it's e-mine varients in 2 tubes, and then the e-mine "fix" occured and the poor G'Quan tumbled to a desperate mans choice, though the G'Lan just about hung in as a viable battleship. . . The Narn fleet has several staple ships, then numerous vesels that you just don't think about using. Who even really looks at a Rongoth/Rothan? or a t'rakk? and then of course the G'Sten and G'Quanth, and bizarely amongst many, the Bin'Tak.

Despite the Above, the narn still have a nifty patrol 2 fer, the ka'Tok, Thentus and Sho'Kar at skirmish, the Dag'Kar and G'Karith at raid (admitedly specialist) and the excelent var'Nic, then 2 of the games premier warships.

it is not the narn Fleet thatas such that is the problem, it has been mostly consistent through many many changes, it is the game designs power creep, this happens in most games anyway, but if you look at Burgers ship viewer and compare some of the vessels there to their counterparts, you will see what I mean.

I've been mildly amused by the narn beats ea, narn looses to isa etc, all these are subjective really based upon player skill, fleet selection and so on, the narn fleet isn't so strong it will always win against one opponent, or suitably weak it will always loose against a different opponent. What it is is a tad one dimensional, but then so are several other fleets. The Narn like many other fleets have just fallen behind as new fleets come along with funky new powers, but then thats how you sell new fleets anyway! This issue of course is now moot with mini's production gone, so who knows.

Key issues for me on the narn is NOT giving them improved CBD, it is making the fleet choices that are a bit unloved more purpose, the Rongoth, the G'Quanth, heck, the G'Quan. we have seen 5 or so alternative G'Quanths in the G'Quanth thread, the general consensus seems to be for a real close in bruiser (but with speed 5, will it ever get there?), I have sent katadder a new Rothan varient to look at, and i am Sure as at least a part time Narn, Greg is looking at ways to work the fleet too. and I would also ask again that the E-mines on the Bin'Tak and G'Vrahn are at least looked at swapping one shot ;-)
wouldn't mind a Frazi Mk2 (or the to-reth bomber) as an alternative fighter as well
but you know what, whatever happens, the Narn are still one of the best goddamn looking fleets in the game, the G'Quan may be a waste of points compared to two var'Nics, but it looks so amazing that you just have to have one in your fleet!

Ok the Narn have bin consistant through out the game, true

Bintak is not useless, True its a big heavy ship (aka Fire magenet and damage sink)

G'Vann vs Bintak. Is the Q'Vann (old verson, not the nerf propose one) better than the Bintak. of Course but its 10 years+ younger than the Bintak (thats a eternity in miltary vehicles) The issue is that by the time the Q'vrann makes its debut the Bintak had bin replaced by the Ka'Bintak

The guys at mongouse need to do what they did to earth fleets and make diffrent era fleet lists for the other races. That way it shows what was intended with newer ship replacing older designs, no need for nerfing

Oh on the subject of Narn vs other fleets. Yes it does depend on Tactics, ship choice and die rolls. What iam trying to point out if two compentant or skilled players face each other. One Narn vs (say Earth Crusade) the Narn are at a great dis adv. Ive seen it a campaign too many times. Personally wreak a Narn vet with my centuari Fleet, granted too causualites (lost a couple demos), but narn where dead.

Oh one more thing for Da boss







Your better off in Liati, lot more sleeker and has bucket seats

 

[Da Boss]

Ah yes my Friend that is true, but safety is more assured if your Liati is accompanied by a Maximus - I am right Yes?

Let us drink to the superiority of our glorious Republic and our magnificent ships

 

[Davesaint]

Sigh, the Bin'Tak isn't useless. The Bin'Tak could take on almost all other warships with a fair chance of sucess. It's a beast. The Bin'Tak has never been weak, and Indeed never will be. The Issue obviously comes down to the G'Vrahn, as has been discussed many many times. the Obvious solution that was touted was to switch the one shot on the e-mines to the G'Vrahn. It's a smaller ship, so makes sense eh? and lo you have an e-mine heavy command ship, or a now slightly nerfed sniper that is still quite superb.

As to the Narn strength and weakness. The Narn have several standoutships, and then sevearl doozies. I find it amusing that the Ka'Toc has barely changed, and used to be called cheese, but now barely elicits a mention due to the general powercreep of the game, meaning it has been surpassed. The same can be said of the frazi, it was never cheesy but it was acknowledged as one of the premier anti ship fighters early on, but then AF took over from your generally weak AF guns, every man and his dog got uberfighters and again the narn stood still. . . the same in some respects goes to the G'Quan. When the game launched, it was a bloody good ship, not least because the E-Mines could crit, then they couldn't, but it still had it's e-mine varients in 2 tubes, and then the e-mine "fix" occured and the poor G'Quan tumbled to a desperate mans choice, though the G'Lan just about hung in as a viable battleship. . . The Narn fleet has several staple ships, then numerous vesels that you just don't think about using. Who even really looks at a Rongoth/Rothan? or a t'rakk? and then of course the G'Sten and G'Quanth, and bizarely amongst many, the Bin'Tak.

Despite the Above, the narn still have a nifty patrol 2 fer, the ka'Tok, Thentus and Sho'Kar at skirmish, the Dag'Kar and G'Karith at raid (admitedly specialist) and the excelent var'Nic, then 2 of the games premier warships.

it is not the narn Fleet thatas such that is the problem, it has been mostly consistent through many many changes, it is the game designs power creep, this happens in most games anyway, but if you look at Burgers ship viewer and compare some of the vessels there to their counterparts, you will see what I mean.

I've been mildly amused by the narn beats ea, narn looses to isa etc, all these are subjective really based upon player skill, fleet selection and so on, the narn fleet isn't so strong it will always win against one opponent, or suitably weak it will always loose against a different opponent. What it is is a tad one dimensional, but then so are several other fleets. The Narn like many other fleets have just fallen behind as new fleets come along with funky new powers, but then thats how you sell new fleets anyway! This issue of course is now moot with mini's production gone, so who knows.

Key issues for me on the narn is NOT giving them improved CBD, it is making the fleet choices that are a bit unloved more purpose, the Rongoth, the G'Quanth, heck, the G'Quan. we have seen 5 or so alternative G'Quanths in the G'Quanth thread, the general consensus seems to be for a real close in bruiser (but with speed 5, will it ever get there?), I have sent katadder a new Rothan varient to look at, and i am Sure as at least a part time Narn, Greg is looking at ways to work the fleet too. and I would also ask again that the E-mines on the Bin'Tak and G'Vrahn are at least looked at swapping one shot ;-)
wouldn't mind a Frazi Mk2 (or the to-reth bomber) as an alternative fighter as well
but you know what, whatever happens, the Narn are still one of the best goddamn looking fleets in the game, the G'Quan may be a waste of points compared to two var'Nics, but it looks so amazing that you just have to have one in your fleet!

Ok the Narn have bin consistant through out the game, true

Bintak is not useless, True its a big heavy ship (aka Fire magenet and damage sink)

G'Vann vs Bintak. Is the Q'Vann (old verson, not the nerf propose one) better than the Bintak. of Course but its 10 years+ younger than the Bintak (thats a eternity in miltary vehicles) The issue is that by the time the Q'vrann makes its debut the Bintak had bin replaced by the Ka'Bintak

The guys at mongouse need to do what they did to earth fleets and make diffrent era fleet lists for the other races. That way it shows what was intended with newer ship replacing older designs, no need for nerfing

Oh on the subject of Narn vs other fleets. Yes it does depend on Tactics, ship choice and die rolls. What iam trying to point out if two compentant or skilled players face each other. One Narn vs (say Earth Crusade) the Narn are at a great dis adv. Ive seen it a campaign too many times. Personally wreak a Narn vet with my centuari Fleet, granted too causualites (lost a couple demos), but narn where dead.

Oh one more thing for Da boss







Your better off in Liati, lot more sleeker and has bucket seats

Ugh. So freaking what that the G'Vrahn and the Bintak are 10 years apart. Just about nobody plays with in service dates. The G'Vrahn at it's current level is by far the best war level hull in the game. I am sick to death with people using the "well technology has improved" argument. If that's the case, then fine. Keep the G'Vrahn exactly the same and bump it up a PL to reflect it's "better technological advances." This is just another power creap issue.

Dave

 

[Foxmeister]

G'Vann vs Bintak. Is the Q'Vann (old verson, not the nerf propose one) better than the Bintak. of Course but its 10 years+ younger than the Bintak (thats a eternity in miltary vehicles) The issue is that by the time the Q'vrann makes its debut the Bintak had bin replaced by the Ka'Bintak

G'Vann
Q'Vann
Q'Vrann

???

And here am I stuck with just my G'Vrahn! Am I missing out here???

Regards,

Dave

 

[Cavalier1645]

Ah yes my Friend that is true, but safety is more assured if your Liati is accompanied by a Maximus - I am right Yes?

Let us drink to the superiority of our glorious Republic and our magnificent ships

Yes let us have a drink(after my taster checks it for poison, sorry but we are centauri after all)

Yes Liati is much better with a maxiumus. I got two in my fleet. Unfortunatly they are usually assign to protect my Octurion Flagship.

 

[stepan.razin]

One ship has a pulsar mine. And a canny enemy will spread his fighters out preventing you from nailing more than a couple.

Dont have to destroy every enemy fighter, just destroy their scary bombers.

No. The Vorchan is fast and manueverable, the G'Vrahn isn't. The G'Vrahn actually looks pretty good compared to most of the Narn fleet though.

I dont know about that, Most of the ships our Narn players field have 2/45 turns. Besides, if you are gonna say that unless you are as maneuverable as a Vorchar you suck, then every fleet pretty much sucks in that regard.

Lets look at boresight quantities:
Drazi: 15/15
Narn: 13/22
Early EA 6/20
Crusade EA: 6/16
3rd Age EA: 5/15
Brakiri:4/15
Psi Corps 3/6
Raiders: 2/4

The best ships that that Narn field dont need boresight. Besides, it is only a problem unless you dont have enough init sinks, which should never be a problem for the Narn (unless the player is doing something wrong).

What do you consider good about the Narn primaries? One-shot non-critting emines? Non-precise beams? Narn have a couple of good weapons - the ion torpedo, and the mag gun (and that usually has too few AD to be really useful).

Dont you mean Slow Loading? And yes, I do consider TD, AP, EM a good weapon.

Really? Those Vorchans get past the beams and happily sit outside you secondary range and blow the **** out of your ships. If the Centauri takes slow line ships, maybe, but against typical fast centauri fleets, no chance.

How is that a problem for the Narn only.

Hmm, if the Narn build their fleet specifically to deal with these two, they can do well. But once the Whitestars get past the front of the Narn ships, it is all over. When a Whitestar gets past a Dag'kar, it is not pretty.

There is no rule in the book that all your ships have to be in a single line facing the same way.

 

[stepan.razin]

Fighters - Narn fighters are anti ship fighters, but lack any way to engage the ships with out geting torn apart by other race's fighters and anti fighter from cap ship.

Maneuverability: Yea, but the maneuverable ships are small like the Demos (but lack the interceptor to keep it alive and slower).

Boresight - Yes but Earth and lot of races will out manuever the narn boresight.

Hmm, what exactly are you doing with your fighter that they get torn appart by other fleet's fighters and anti fighters?

How will Earth outmaneuver the Narn? With the best 2 for 1 ship in the game, you must be doing funny things if you cant boresight something good. Whenever I field a Marathon, I dont have problem shooting its beam at something useful, and Earth Crusade doesnt have 2 for 1 ships.

 

[Ike]

Dont you mean Slow Loading? And yes, I do consider TD, AP, EM a good weapon.

Against what?

sure the dagkar can kick minbari ass assuming the minbari fighters arent around to kill it

its to big a weapon to use just to blow up fighters who if the otherside sees it will immediatly move to make it so you can only kill 1 with a 6AD TD AP EM which really seems like a waste for a slow loading weapon. and a complete waste for a OS

as to its actually effectiveness, in a 5 point raid I field one, more for the threat to other peoples squadrons, if I can get 2 ships in a blast im happy, usually im settling for a ship and a fighter

if it happens to be a drahk or a whitestar I just really really burned them
anything else with less then hull 6 gets a bit hurt, hull 6 you take 4 or 6 damage horray, completely useless against a bigger ship

although it was fun blowing up swarms with them, but then it seems swarms are getting nerfed, there goes that joy

Hmm, what exactly are you doing with your fighter that they get torn appart by other fleet's fighters and anti fighters?

I dont know about cavalier at first I tried using them in dogfights, with out even the possibility of fleet carrier on my side of the board I tended to lose that, so then I tried clearing fighters with GSten and holding frazis in reserve for anti shipping or group ganging the remaing, even then im going up against things with +2 dogifght(possibly 3 or 4) at which point I lose, as for anti shipping, never have enough to truly swamp a ship and those taht do get through manage to shoot off you massive 4AD of nothing at which point you realize wow, I just wasted a couple fighter flights to do 3 damage horray, I usually dont bother launching them anymore

although I did manage complete fighter supremacy in one game, it was against the abbai but I did win it

 

[Ike]

As to the Narn strength and weakness. The Narn have several standoutships, and then sevearl doozies. I find it amusing that the Ka'Toc has barely changed, and used to be called cheese, but now barely elicits a mention due to the general powercreep of the game, meaning it has been surpassed.

Despite the Above, the narn still have a nifty patrol 2 fer, the ka'Tok, Thentus and Sho'Kar at skirmish

Manueverability - combined with boresight, this can be a pain in the rear. Once a Ka'toc has completed its first attack run it can usually be found circling the battlefield trying to turn in and get back into the fight.

As good as the thentus is as a skirmish choice, its just not narny enough for me, harkens back to the days of oppression by the Centauri

in view of this I propose an additional turn on the Ka'toc to bring it up to 2/45 so it has a possibility of regaining its cheese factor

 

[Greg Smith]

I dont know about that, Most of the ships our Narn players field have 2/45 turns.

The G'Vrahn
Var'nic
Thentus
Sho'kar
T'Rakk
Sho'kov

The best ships that that Narn field dont need boresight.

Well if those two criteria coincide, that'd be the T'Rakk and Sho'kov.

Besides, it is only a problem unless you dont have enough init sinks, which should never be a problem for the Narn (unless the player is doing something wrong).

Or the enemy has more ships than you. Or kills your sinks. Or gets behind you.

Really? Those Vorchans get past the beams and happily sit outside you secondary range and blow the **** out of your ships. If the Centauri takes slow line ships, maybe, but against typical fast centauri fleets, no chance.

How is that a problem for the Narn only.

It isn't. It is a problem for slow, unmaneuverable fleets, of which the Narn are one.

There is no rule in the book that all your ships have to be in a single line facing the same way.

But given that is where the enemy starts, it is usually a good idea.

 

[stepan.razin]

Against what?

sure the dagkar can kick minbari ass assuming the minbari fighters arent around to kill it

Yeah, every time I see Mimbari, I see 20 Fighters around, please, dont be so hysterical, if Mimbari have enough fighters to take out a Dagkar quickly, its a big game and you probably have 2 or 3 more of those bastards.

I think that a 30' TD, AP, EM, SL weapon is a good weapon and can be used against just about anything. In a Battle 5 game recently, 3 Dagkars took out 1 Apollo in 1 firing turn.

as to its actually effectiveness, in a 5 point raid I field one, more for the threat to other peoples squadrons, if I can get 2 ships in a blast im happy, usually im settling for a ship and a fighter

try buying 2.

if it happens to be a drahk or a whitestar I just really really burned them
anything else with less then hull 6 gets a bit hurt, hull 6 you take 4 or 6 damage horray, completely useless against a bigger ship

I missed the part that that is your only weapon. Dont you have SAP,P 30", some DD Beam and TD Beams? Mines give you huge flexibility.

Dont get me wrong, Narn definitely have weaknesses, but IMO their advantages outweigh those hands down.

 

[Cavalier1645]

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Hmm, what exactly are you doing with your fighter that they get torn appart by other fleet's fighters and anti fighters?

How will Earth outmaneuver the Narn? With the best 2 for 1 ship in the game, you must be doing funny things if you cant boresight something good. Whenever I field a Marathon, I dont have problem shooting its beam at something useful, and Earth Crusade doesnt have 2 for 1 ships.

Ok what how many points do you guys play at? I play fleet engagements 5 points raid +). T And to answer your question I was playing Earth, Crusade era. The narn don't field lots of fighters in their big ships like Earth at that era.

How will Earth outmaneuver the Narn?
Oh really let me see

Chronos attack frigs
Marathon Cruisers
Hyperion Cruisers
All the Earth Fighters (oh my e-mines will handel them, oh what if the Earth play breaks them up?)

Oh the Warlock won't out maneuver Narn, does it really have too.

Narn have best two for 1 ships what the Sho'Kos?, problem with them they die real easy to fighters.