Playtest rules: FAP breakdown

[Burger]

I see in the playtest rules posted by Matt, that we have yet another new FAP breakdown chart..... :roll:

I thought we were going back to the Armageddon one? What was wrong with the Armageddon one? Seriously, it was just perfect. It allowed tournaments to be fought at 1pt Armageddon, and swarms were perfectly balanced with big ships. Now, 1pt Armageddon just won't work for many races such as Drazi.


Oh and I see the deep space tournament rules are in there. Seriously, and I mean this as constructively as possible, trying my best to be as nice and political and as helpful for the overall quality of P&P as I can be.... BIN THE DEEP SPACE TOUNAMENT RULES THEY SUCK TOTALLY!!! The theory and story is fine, but the rules implementation just SUCKS beyond belief. All of the scenarios are totally broken and unfair. A few changes such as the ones I suggested after the event, would improve them massively.

 

[CZuschlag]

You want to take on Chapter 8 as primary playtest for your Local Group, then, Burger? If you have a shell of updates already and can get your local club to sign off on them, that would be fine. Honestly, with that section, I never experienced it firsthand ... you did. If you can wrangle that back in line, I'd be very enthusiastic.

There's so much out there we probably can't each individually test everything , so we're probably going to have to do local "Unit" testing before we proceed to "system" testing.

I'm interested in either the unit testing of the fleet breakdowns, or the ship balance updates including the new Chapter 3 special actions and ... *shudder* ... Ramming.

 

[Burger]

Hmm Greg said the ramming was back to requiring crippled...


Chapter 8 blows chunks, I was at the tournament that used this pack, and I wouldn't play those scenarios again if you paid me!! Just a quick read through and you'll see they are just totally ridiculous, especially the last one. For a start Shadows can't even enter (no skirmish ship), even though it mentions Shadows in scenario 4. Plus other races are given a special method of boarding Shadows and Vorlons vessels (bye bye canon nice knowing you)... but how are they meant to win scenario 4 when they don't have any troops?

Seriously it was a great idea to have a story to follow, great idea to have small fleets with 1 skirmish and 1 battle ship, great idea to have "blind" scenarios, great idea to have follow-on scenarios that follow the story. But as for the games themselves and their victory conditions, it is the worst tournament pack I have ever seen. In its current state, it should not go to print... it should be buried in soft peat for 3 months then recycled as firelighters. It is not beyond repair however, some changes to the scenarios could improve it hugely.

 

[CZuschlag]

You want to take charge of the first wave of repairs?

 

[Burger]

Sure, here's my feedback from the event, and a couple of posts down my suggestions to make it playable.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34302&start=46

I would quite happily see it diappear into the pit of despair, though. It's been in S&P already, I don't see why it needs to go into P&P too.

 

[Greg Smith]

Hmm Greg said the ramming was back to requiring crippled...

I did, didn't I? Well it does, and it doesn't.

Is a CQ9 to attempt a ram with a undamaged ship too easy? It might be for Dilgar in a pentacon with an Ochlavita Ki. Or a WS with its guns taken out - don't have to worry about skin dancing now - just go for the ram.

 

[Greg Smith]

Armageddon went:

2
3
6
12
24

The new one goes:
2
3
5
8
12

Which is a 50% increase over the level above (rounded up).

It goes further to reduce swarm fleets than anything other than the original 1st ed breakdown (2,3,4,6).

 

[mollari_uk]

I like this new breakdown. The less you get the better for me.

 

[Clanger]

I like the new breakdown as it will stop those swarm fleets.

I am amazed that people were crying that swarm fleets were too good and you got a lot for your FAP. Now they come up with a way to reduce this and still people complain about it. :roll:

 

[silashand]

I like it. Still not perfect, but much better anyway. I know the initiative sink thing will always be an issue to some degree, but this mitigates it without requiring huge changes to the game which I like.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Burger]

Nobody buys down more than 1 or 2 levels anyway. So only the "2,3" part of the sequence really affects most games.

Making it "2, 3, 6, 12, 18" meant that Drazi actually stood a chance in War or Armageddon level games. "2, 3, 4, 6, 8" doesn't really hinder swarmy cheesy players because they only go 2 or 3 levels down, but it totally screws Drazi.

 

[No. 1 Bear]

Thats a massive change, maybe a bit much armegeddon looks like the balance between the two....

 

[silashand]

Nobody buys down more than 1 or 2 levels anyway. So only the "2,3" part of the sequence really affects most games.

I wouldn't say nobody does. I may spend one FAP or so on skirmish/patrol level ships in a 5 Arm game just because I happen to like the models or because that's the only place I can get scouts or some other special ship type.

Making it "2, 3, 6, 12, 18" meant that Drazi actually stood a chance in War or Armageddon level games. "2, 3, 4, 6, 8" doesn't really hinder swarmy cheesy players because they only go 2 or 3 levels down, but it totally screws Drazi.

Drazi just seem to need a boost anyway. Overall for the rest of the fleets, I think the new FAP looks a bit better. JMO...

Cheers, Gary

 

[lastbesthope]

I see in the playtest rules posted by Matt, that we have yet another new FAP breakdown chart..... :roll:

Have these been posted publicly or just to the playtesters?

LBH

EDIT : Ignore that, found them

LBH

 

[katadder]

I personally like it as it makes you generally want to use the ships at the PL you are fighting with the occasional big ship and some supporting ships without getting swarms.
yes you cant bring hordes of strikehawks to an armageddon level game but you can bring a warship, battleship, raid ship and 2 skirmish which is the same as in armageddon breakdowns anyway.
stops people from deviating too far from the PL so means big battles will see more big ships as it should be.

 

[Burger]

yes you cant bring hordes of strikehawks to an armageddon level game but you can bring a warship, battleship, raid ship and 2 skirmish which is the same as in armageddon breakdowns anyway.

That is precisely what I mean by "screws over Drazi"... they need init sinks to line up boresights, and their high PL ships generally suck. In Armageddon splits I could take 12 strikehawks, which was pretty balanced against a Sharlin+Tinashi+2xLeshath, a Mankhat+2xTirkit, Vorlon LC+Destroyer+3xTransport, or 6 White Stars. The numbers just worked perfectly. But with the new splits, it doesn't work at all... Sharlin+Tinashi+2xLeshath is balanced against 8 Strikehawks? Don't think so!!!

Yes you should take a penalty for buying away from the PL... but it should still be playable!!! Surely getting 12 instead of 16 (a 25% penalty) is enough... 8 instead of 16 is 50%!

 

[Locutus9956]

Sorry burger but if you go think about how the REST of the rules affect drazi then I'd have to say they DONT need the initiative sinks in the same way any more:

1) TTT - Means you can at least about 50% of the time fire half your weapons off bore anyway.

2) Drazi Attack Run - Is a horribly nasty ability that cannot be understimated

3) The fireraptor is no longer made from toilet paper.

I'd have to say that overall the drazi come out on top after all the new changes are factored in including the FAP changes.

I'd like to see how they play with these rules a bit before I form any solid opinions but my first reaction is that this actually isnt that much of an issue for drazi in campaigns anwyay since they can (and should) try to keep the PL low) and most tournaments still center around the 5 point raid principle or thereabouts. Yes I liked the 1 point armageddon option but from what I've read of the playtest rules thusfar they seem to be a pretty good job of balancing things for games played around 5 point raid or battle and certainly make higher levels viable.

 

[Burger]

Sorry burger but if you go think about how the REST of the rules affect drazi then I'd have to say they DONT need the initiative sinks in the same way any more:

1) TTT - Means you can at least about 50% of the time fire half your weapons off bore anyway.

How'd you like your fleet to only function at 50% firepower?

2) Drazi Attack Run - Is a horribly nasty ability that cannot be understimated

I don't expect this to be implemented as-is, the overwhelming opinion so far is that it is horribly broken.

3) The fireraptor is no longer made from toilet paper.

True but it still has B weapons which make it a poor choice for a Drazi fleet.

Also you can no longer take other League allies. Sorry but I think Drazi came off really badly, unless the attack run thing goes through, in which case I agree they are horribly overpowered!!

 

[Foxmeister]

If it were a 4pt Battle rather than 1pt Armageddon, you could get 12 Strikehawks rather than 8. Of course, an Armageddon level game should be encouraging larger ships, but I think that the issue here is that the Drazi get loads of choices at Skirmish, but very few above it (1 at Raid, 2 at Battle etc). The list probably needs at least 2 more Raid choices and perhaps 1 Battle to make it viable at Armageddon.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Locutus9956]

Well I'm personally hoping as you say that the attack run thing wont go through as it is but even if it gets toned down somewhat I believe it will be rather nasty.

Personally I'm of the oppinion that they should make it such that if the attack run fails it is NOT a free ram and the drazi ship just flies past and misses and cannot fire that turn. That would in my opinion make it a risky manuever whos benefits are nasty but that failing it means your ending up rather vulnerable.

As for being at 50% firepower, on paper yes that is the case but bear in mind it means the ships you would just be using as initiative sinks and not getting their boresights on can ALSO fire at 50%. And also some ships are still going to be able to use their full on bores.

In fact what say we start another thread discussing the Drazi with the new playtest rules as frankly they seem to be a race thats ratehr heavily changed under them