Playtest rules: Crusade era and 3rd age
- Thread starter Joe_Dracos
- Start date
-------stepan.razin said:Shut Up Hippie! said:
not worth it? The current Chronos ship is one of the best skirmish ships in ACTA when used correctly. ...
Its the easiest ship to use, CBD and float around shooting. But I tend to agree, it doesn't need changing, its pretty good as is. The main weakness of Crusade, like the Vree, it has very few hit points, but there has to be a weakness.
There is not comparison between the Vree and the Chronos,
Chronos is skirmish, hull 6, with interceptor
the Vree skirmish is hull 4, and nothing special.
Not even close!!!
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Triggy said:
I don't think the Vree are low on damage points at all. The scouts are beacuse they have stealth 5. Otherwise they are fine. The only fragile thing is the Xorr and its variants with hull 4.
I think I'm referring to the Vree as being weak if you manage to target them as they have lowish hit points but not great hull scores and no other active defences (this is the big one). This in practice tends to make Vree a very delicate fleet to handle.
I agree that the raw numbers aren't too shabby though.
I agree that the raw numbers aren't too shabby though.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Also agreed. The Xaar is subject to a fix to bring it back into line (we all know it's not) and the Skirmish hulls are fine. The Raid Xill is powerful, but fair.
The big Vree are really pushing it, however. SM access (which is a powerful defense, no mistake!), increased crew quality, turret arcs, and very powerful weapon arrays have to be paid for in some way. The Xaak is quite small for Battle-level, so it's not ridiculous.
The fact that the Xonn gives up almost nothing for this is why I keep it in my list, but ya'll know my opinion on that already....
The big Vree are really pushing it, however. SM access (which is a powerful defense, no mistake!), increased crew quality, turret arcs, and very powerful weapon arrays have to be paid for in some way. The Xaak is quite small for Battle-level, so it's not ridiculous.
The fact that the Xonn gives up almost nothing for this is why I keep it in my list, but ya'll know my opinion on that already....
the xonn is speed 7 and range 15 max so not a hugely powerful ship. also to use Sm means speed 3.5.
turret arc in itself is a weakness as you can lose an arc and thats you out of guns.
also whislt turret arc can be brought to bear on any target which is good for duels as mostly we fight fleet battles i prefer multiple arc to be able to engage multiple targets. there are ships with more combined firepower than the xonn just differant arcs so better for fleet battles. which is why i dont rate the victory as an armageddon ship as part of a fleet battle. its a good hunter but it cant tear the heart out of an enemy fleet like an adira can.
turret arc in itself is a weakness as you can lose an arc and thats you out of guns.
also whislt turret arc can be brought to bear on any target which is good for duels as mostly we fight fleet battles i prefer multiple arc to be able to engage multiple targets. there are ships with more combined firepower than the xonn just differant arcs so better for fleet battles. which is why i dont rate the victory as an armageddon ship as part of a fleet battle. its a good hunter but it cant tear the heart out of an enemy fleet like an adira can.
Methos5000
Mongoose
There is something to be said though in having the ability to APTE past your enemy and not lose an ounce of firepower. Most races that do that will have a rather weak aft arc to fire at an enemy ship. Being able to do that and fire up to 28AD of DD (for the Xonn) at an enemy is a nice ability to have.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
Assuming that they can fire anything at the enemy. Remember that having all your weapons in turrets is a double edged sword in this game.
katadder said:
The addition of any stellar debris or the use of a short ranged fleet makes the Vree fleet nasty to fight. Slap a few torpedo saucers near a dust cloud/asteroid field and they become horrible, able to "pop out" attack with their torps, then retreat to reload.
Though the SM of the Xonn only allows it to travel 3.5 inches, it also a allows it to freely change facing at the end of it's movement, ready for an APTE next turn, which can easily end it up in a poor arc for whatever it's fighting, or allow it to retreat outside of enemy return fire range. If you init sink well with the Vree, you can do truly nasty things with them against short ranged fleets, quite possibly denying them a shot for the entire game by using SM then APTE, even on a table free of debris.
The best way to fight Vree is to out range them (particularly with Ion torps/advanced missile racks/Kalivas) and try not to close to within about 12" of them (15" if you can manage it) at all. Fighters with range 3"+ are also good against them (when supported by good dogfighters in case of Zorths), as you can try to chase them out of cover without getting into AF range.
Methos5000
Mongoose
nekomata fuyu said:
I'm not saying its not, but Vree are hardly the only race with that weakness and all of other races that have ships with one arc are Front arc only, if they APTE past an enemy they can't fire at that ship at all, the fact the Vree can do this is a nice bonus. And if you can get behind most of your enemies by APTE before losing your weapons to a lucky crit you are reducing your chances of ever losing your weapons anyway, most(not all but most) ships have rather weak aft arcs which significantly improve Vree survivability.
I'm not saying its a foolproof strategy but it is something the Vree can do very effectively that no one else can(at least I don't recall other race that has 28AD DD on a battle level hull and be able to shoot all that behind them if they need to)
Omnipotent
Mongoose
Methos5000 said:
Been nagging about this since day one...there SO should be a rule stating that if Vree uses APTE they loose half there ad, something like "they have good manouverablility but not to powerful engines"...dunno but it is brutal..
Katadder, how can u dodge a ship that is deployed towards u 24 inc away facing your direction, with a APTE range of what 11,5 and gun range of 10 and 15 inc?
...and how many super-ap DD dices did it have again?
well if you playing CTAagainst vree with someone like narn or EA then obviously dont deploy at the edge of your deployment zone, this is a mistake many people make. you can effecively start 36" away. with APTE and range of 15 a xonn has an effective range of 26.5". so i am still outside his weapon range (and 24.5" away) and can move my omega/g'quan forward and beam him with no retaliation.
if you start at an angle (having init +2 against vrees init +) you can start further away if you wish but that probably wont work.
if you start this distance away the xonn player has to decide wether to APTE of CBD. if he CBDs then you just make sure to stay at range 30". next turn if he APTE you are 4.5" outside his range. so move that omega its 3.5" and boresight again.
thats 2 shots you can take before he even closes. obviously only 1 shot if he APTE 1st turn.
I did this against centauri the other day with the 1st turn no centauri firing and my omega crippling a dargan and my hyperion and missile ships firing unopposed against vorchans.
if you start at an angle (having init +2 against vrees init +) you can start further away if you wish but that probably wont work.
if you start this distance away the xonn player has to decide wether to APTE of CBD. if he CBDs then you just make sure to stay at range 30". next turn if he APTE you are 4.5" outside his range. so move that omega its 3.5" and boresight again.
thats 2 shots you can take before he even closes. obviously only 1 shot if he APTE 1st turn.
I did this against centauri the other day with the 1st turn no centauri firing and my omega crippling a dargan and my hyperion and missile ships firing unopposed against vorchans.
Omnipotent
Mongoose
A 6 dice DD beam...average damage ~11 with less then 50% of a crit with the current system.
that is all one can do. Next turn u got every Xonn, Xill, Xeel firing 50 dices of way more powerful ,re-roll ,super-ap, td/dd hit on a roll of 2 weapons on u that u don´t stand a chance...and if u want your secondary weapons to have a target u need to start moving yourself, and that usually means the Vree can move away from a few let´s say lumbering omega side acrs.
The idea of starting at a the very edge is not something I did not think about. It´s just that u only have a Omega and it´s unrealiable beam to shoot at the Vree...
that is all one can do. Next turn u got every Xonn, Xill, Xeel firing 50 dices of way more powerful ,re-roll ,super-ap, td/dd hit on a roll of 2 weapons on u that u don´t stand a chance...and if u want your secondary weapons to have a target u need to start moving yourself, and that usually means the Vree can move away from a few let´s say lumbering omega side acrs.
The idea of starting at a the very edge is not something I did not think about. It´s just that u only have a Omega and it´s unrealiable beam to shoot at the Vree...
Omnipotent
Mongoose
EA has the same problems against Dilgar...Dilgar have more firepower and maneuverability...Early years could stand a chance if deploying a hoard of Saggis...which of course is swarming which is not so fair.
a 6AD beam will average 6 hits which is an average of one crit. and if you adding in all the rest of the fleet then you got the rest of the EA fleet too.
also next turn if you win init you got another 6AD beam on the xonn, so thats 22 damage and 2 crits before the xonn even fires.
the xonns firing (which is 28Ad not 50) is likely to get 4 hits from the shredder (which if thats in range the omega also gets its pulse for another 3-4 damage) and avergae 6 hits from the cannon. 10 hits total of which the interceptors will more than likely stop 4 (3 on the way up and one more 1 in 6) which means 11 damage and a crit. so its not that badly off.
so after 1st turn of xonns firing omega has done 25-26 damage and 2 crits against 11 and 1. the omega has taken half the xonns damage off it. also the omega has 4 fighters, best to take t-bolts to sit outsie AF range. theres another 2-3 hits per turn.
yes the xonn and vree are good because of SM but their ships are not the fastest and the xonn only has range 15 max, half the range of omegas. they lose all their weapons on 2 of the crits. if crippled they only have one weapon (whereas an omega can put 2 on target, one bore, one forward).
fleets are supposed to fight differantly. omegas can sit on CBD firing their beam at range 30 if they like. they also have rear beams. EA also has better init than the vree. and if the vree APTE past you, depending on how far they go past you can always APTE away or use that rear beam.
also EA have a fleet carrier, vree dont. EA have interceptors, vree dont. the vree can and will be beaten by EA, just depends on the players involved. if you set up only 24" away from the vree you will lose as you are playing to their strengths.
also next turn if you win init you got another 6AD beam on the xonn, so thats 22 damage and 2 crits before the xonn even fires.
the xonns firing (which is 28Ad not 50) is likely to get 4 hits from the shredder (which if thats in range the omega also gets its pulse for another 3-4 damage) and avergae 6 hits from the cannon. 10 hits total of which the interceptors will more than likely stop 4 (3 on the way up and one more 1 in 6) which means 11 damage and a crit. so its not that badly off.
so after 1st turn of xonns firing omega has done 25-26 damage and 2 crits against 11 and 1. the omega has taken half the xonns damage off it. also the omega has 4 fighters, best to take t-bolts to sit outsie AF range. theres another 2-3 hits per turn.
yes the xonn and vree are good because of SM but their ships are not the fastest and the xonn only has range 15 max, half the range of omegas. they lose all their weapons on 2 of the crits. if crippled they only have one weapon (whereas an omega can put 2 on target, one bore, one forward).
fleets are supposed to fight differantly. omegas can sit on CBD firing their beam at range 30 if they like. they also have rear beams. EA also has better init than the vree. and if the vree APTE past you, depending on how far they go past you can always APTE away or use that rear beam.
also EA have a fleet carrier, vree dont. EA have interceptors, vree dont. the vree can and will be beaten by EA, just depends on the players involved. if you set up only 24" away from the vree you will lose as you are playing to their strengths.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Omnipotent said:
Bear in mind though, that all those AD can be intercepted and most EA ships have a hull greater than 4 so there won't be much hitting on 2s.
Against Vree, my weapons of choice for Crusade EA would be either of the two Apollos, and a few Chronos and Hermes.
Regards,
Dave
