Playtest rules: Crusade era and 3rd age

[Greg Smith]

Not every ship needs playtesting to see if it is too good or too weak, it is often obvious from the stats and comparing with similar ships.

Crusade does not automatically equal hull 6. Especially not for support ships like a carrier.

 

[katadder]

Again, Hull 4 and speed 4 are a big, big downside. Something you and I don't seem to agree on.

its nowhere near as big a downside as it used to be. and speed 4 is great for boresight ships, 2" then turn.
the bonuses it gets takes it way above the norm with 2 patrol points of some of the best fighters in the game on board, CQ5, psychic crew, stealth and a 30" beam which isnt usually something you see on raid ships. when your range is 30" speed 4 is irrelevant.

 

[Greg Smith]

4" is good for the first few turns. Then when the enemy gets into your weaponless rear arc, there is no escape.

And 'not as bad as it used to be' isn't exactly a glowing recommendation.

Anway, we are rehasing old arguements and aren't likely to change each others' minds, so lets go back to the topic, ie the Crusade Era fleet.

 

[stepan.razin]

Not every ship needs playtesting to see if it is too good or too weak, it is often obvious from the stats and comparing with similar ships.

That approach only works if the answer has to be YES or NO. Playtesting can tell you exactly how much to nerf, and what to nerf. I seem to remember P&P had a classic knee jerk reaction to WS, and nerfed the heck out of it.

Crusade does not automatically equal hull 6. Especially not for support ships like a carrier.

No, but it would fit nicely into the character of the fleet.

 

[Greg Smith]

Since when is the character of the Crusade Era fleet Hull 6?

It has one Skirmish level ship at hull 6. Other ships at Patrol - Raid are Hull 4 & 5. Battle, War and Armageddon are Hull 6, except for the carrier; all as standard.

The Maximus doesn't give the Centauri Hull 6 as character, nor does the Rohic give it to the Dilgar.

 

[Link-Hero-1]

Since when is the character of the Crusade Era fleet Hull 6?

That's because all new ships(2261 and beyond), which are associated with the Crusade Era, have Hull 6.(Only except the Delphi and the Myrmidon. The first is a scout and the second a "light" Patrol ship.)
So it's not unreasonable to say that Hull 6 is a character of the Crusade Era.

Of course not on every ship, but a Raid Carrier should have it.

But the first Version of the Hephaestus is far too powerful.
I like Ripple's Version more, even though I would drop the Flight Computer.
Only direct combat ships like the Warlock and Marathon are supposed to have it, while support ships like the Chronos and Apollo (and a Raid Carrier) have to live without it.

MfG

 

[Greg Smith]

That's because all new ships(2261 and beyond), which are associated with the Crusade Era, have Hull 6.(Only except the Delphi and the Myrmidon. The first is a scout and the second a "light" Patrol ship.)
So it's not unreasonable to say that Hull 6 is a character of the Crusade Era.

But all the new ships are battle-level and above, so of course they would have it.

The Chronos is the exception, either way.

Of course not on every ship, but a Raid Carrier should have it.

Why?

 

[Triggy]

I agree with Ripple and Greg - this ship is way, way too overpowered for starters (it's much closer to Battle PL than Raid PL).

I'd make it more of and advanced, light carrier as follows (extremely similar to Ripple's):

Hephaestus-class Light Carrier Raid
Earth Force was still reliant on fighter supremacy in its fleets and was well served in larger confilcts by the Poseidon Supercarrier. However, in smaller skirmishes and on patrol routes the only ships available that could support more than a dozen fighters were fully fledged warships. This led to the development of a light carrier capable of carrying significant numbers of fighters without the overheads associated with a true fleet carrier. Whilst the Hephaestus does not have quite the same carrying capacity as the older Avenger it has more technology and greater firepower allowing it to deliver its cargo closer to the action and support them once they are there.

Speed: 7
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 30/5
Crew: 36/6
Troops: 2
Craft: 4 Firebolt Starfury flights
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 2, Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, Interceptors 2, Jump Engine
In Service: 2270+

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Railgun 15 F 4 AP, Double Damage
Railgun 15 F 3 AP, Double Damage
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 F 4 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 A 2 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 P 6 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 S 6 Twin-Linked

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Trig, why do you have two railgun weapon systems in the front arc?

 

[stepan.razin]

Since when is the character of the Crusade Era fleet Hull 6?

It has one Skirmish level ship at hull 6. Other ships at Patrol - Raid are Hull 4 & 5. Battle, War and Armageddon are Hull 6, except for the carrier; all as standard.

The Maximus doesn't give the Centauri Hull 6 as character, nor does the Rohic give it to the Dilgar.

All the new ships in Crusade are hull 6(Chronos,Apollos,Marathons, Victory). except the myrmidon. Hyperions, Hermreses are leftover from past eras. IMHO new ships for Crusade should be hull 6. Balance can come from somewhere else (weaker firepower, fewer hits/crew)

 

[stepan.razin]

Since when is the character of the Crusade Era fleet Hull 6?

That's because all new ships(2261 and beyond), which are associated with the Crusade Era, have Hull 6.(Only except the Delphi and the Myrmidon. The first is a scout and the second a "light" Patrol ship.)
So it's not unreasonable to say that Hull 6 is a character of the Crusade Era.

Of course not on every ship, but a Raid Carrier should have it.

But the first Version of the Hephaestus is far too powerful.
I like Ripple's Version more, even though I would drop the Flight Computer.
Only direct combat ships like the Warlock and Marathon are supposed to have it, while support ships like the Chronos and Apollo (and a Raid Carrier) have to live without it.

MfG

That is a good argument.

 

[Greg Smith]

I like Triggy's, carrying Firebolts is a good idea.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I'm also going with the approach that it should probably be Hull 5.
All the Crusade Era ships with Hull 6 are front line combat ships. There is one support ship, and that has Hull 5. Fleet carriers tend to be support ships, and I've seen no reason why this one should be any different.

 

[stryve]

Triggy's stats look pretty solid. Good enough to playtest as is, anyway.

Having said that, I feel an urge to throw out a few ideas of my own...

It kind of looks like we're leaning towards a... mmm, call it a 'strike carrier.' Basically, a light warship that carries a decent complement of fighters to battle. If that is the case, possibly something like this:

Speed: 7
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 6
Damage: 30/5
Crew: 36/6
Troops: 2
Craft: 4 Firebolt Starfury flights
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 2, Carrier 2, Interceptors 2, Jump Engine
In Service: 2270+

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Railgun 15 F 6 AP, Double Damage
Railgun 15 A 2 AP, Double Damage
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 F 4 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 A 2 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 P 6 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 S 6 Twin-Linked

For more of a 'fleet carrier':

Speed: 7
Turn: 1/45o
Hull: 5
Damage: 30/5
Crew: 36/6
Troops: 2
Craft: 4 Firebolt Starfury flights
Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 2, Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, Interceptors 2, Jump Engine
In Service: 2270+

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Railgun 15 F 4 AP, Double Damage
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 F 4 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 A 4 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 P 4 Twin-Linked
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 S 4 Twin-Linked

Compared to the Avenger, it's more manuverable, has better fighters, better weapons range, better weopons traits, and lower threshholds. On the downside, it has less damage/crew, slightly less total attack dice, fewer flights, fewer troops, no Shuttles, and no Command.

 

[Da Boss]

I like both of those - they seem good solid designs..............but not over the top

maybe one or both will appear in P+P................

 

[katadder]

I find it amusing that mine was too powerful but the latest ones coming out actually have more railguns and firebolts instead. thats 2 patrol points worth of fighters instead of 1.5 and able to engage more targets with railguns than my variant. and people are saying these ones are fine

 

[Da Boss]

Well both of the last versions have large changes -

no turreted AP, TL, DD guns.

also lost important traits and damage to get Hull 6 in one case or dropped to Hull 5

plus both are slower.........

 

[Greg Smith]

Less speed, less damage, less pulse cannons, no turreted super railguns, less AF, less interceptors, fewer traits...

All of which combine to make it more balanced overall.

 

[Ripple]

yup...

I'm not sure what you base your point of balance on Katadder. That's not a snipe that's a real question. I saw it before when you did your supplement, some of the ships were upgrades of stuff from other pls, but there was little comparison done with the new pl mates. I'm just curious if you look around and see if your obsoleting other ships or if that is not part of your consideration process.

It does carry Firebolts now... which was a concern for me, but only four of them.

And while there are more rail guns, thus more targets... you can't shoot to the side so harder to get both to fire unless your somewhere you don't want to be as a fleet carrier... and both guns are less effective than the one you had, plus no fifth arc is added so you care more about crits.

Ripple

 

[stryve]

With mine, at least, the varient with more Rail Guns isn't a Fleet Carrier. I was envisioning something more along the lines of the Brikorta or Milani: a halfway decent warship that happens to have some fighters and the ability to launch them quickly. Even then, I'm not sure the 6 AD Railgun isn't too much.

I'm not dead set on anything, just throwing some ideas into the discussion.