Playtest Rules 1.1 - Vree

[stepan.razin]

Do you play a fleet that has MORE than half of the available classes
at hull 4?

I dont have my book with me, but how many races have TD, SAP, P weapons available on at least 50% of their hulls?

 

[stryve]

I dont have my book with me, but how many races have TD, SAP, P weapons available on at least 50% of their hulls?

Only three Vree hulls have TD, SAP, P weapons. All three are slow loading. One other has a TD, SAP weapon. I admit that, since the Vree only have 12 hulls, that's 25% (33% if you include the fourth) of the fleet list.

Also, while they're not SAP, the ISA, Shadows, and Vorlons come to mind.

 

[JTL109]

Do you play a fleet that has MORE than half of the available classes
at hull 4?

I dont have my book with me, but how many races have TD, SAP, P weapons available on at least 50% of their hulls?

-------
Dont you mean TD 'OR' SAP 'OR' P?
But to the question, all 3 EA, Dilgar, Minbari, Narn, and just about
everyone else.
Question to you, The Vree has more than 50 percent of the classes
at hull four, which other fleet has close to a comparible amount.
List the top 4 percentages if you would.

 

[Da Boss]

well on good weapons

Xirr - Triple damage and SAP at Skirmish

Xirr - TD, SAP and Precise (but SL) at skirmish at 25" range

Several of the Hull 4 ships have stealth and are better at scouting than anyone else save ISA, Psi Corps and the Gaim - for lowering stealth or re-rolls on SAP, TD Precise weapons

Throw in some of the best fighters in the game............

all of the Hull 4 ships are skirmish or below - like the Drazi............who also have nearly half of their ships at hull 4 - but suffer from being boresight rather than turreted whilst still having only one arc.

many skirmish ships are hull 4...............

Vree are not over powerfull but are not really weak IMHO - also many of the "weaknesses" can be componsated by the inclusion of other League ships.........with little effect on the fleet -

Want a fleet carrier - speak to the Brakiri, want beams - talk to the Braikiri, Drazi, Want cheap tough ships as In sinks - takk to the abbai,
Want clouds of fighters and emines - talk to the Gaim, or even the pak for big guns / emines

isn't that how the League is supposed to work? :wink:

 

[JTL109]

quote="CZuschlag"]

Similarly, JTL109, I saw your post on the recommendations thread. Vree getting Dodge?? I thought we debunked that idea
...I play a lot of Drakh. That sees as much Hull 4 as anyone! Short-ranged, and dodge-dependent to boot, so I see tons of Emine. And the raiders are hosed on "lose one arc" as thoroughly as anyone else
----------------
The Vree have neither dodge nor GEG, so the Drakh are far more
surivable than the Vree.


The Vree we see look like:
-- Xixx and Xirr at long range, widely spaced, playing dodge in-and-out of dust clouds and asteriod
--------------
Dust clouds and asteroids are very rare in our games, since they only
show up on a roll of a 6. There ane only four on the entire board 4' x 6',
with average rolls.



-- Xill, Xonn and/or Xaak (usually Xill and Xonn) closing to 15 or 10 on the side of a fleet
---------------
If it is only on one side, then kill the ships on the other. If it is on both
then defeat one side in detail, then turn back on the other.
You sound like you do not have the init at any time, why is that?



-- perhaps a few Xeel, very rare, as we consider it to be a cheese ship with the current Tzymm loadout (we think Tzymm should be paid for like Rutarians; with Zorth, the Xeel was fine)

-- a Vaarka or a Vaarl or two

So, a heavy 5-raid might be one Xonn/Xaak, a Xill, a Vaarka, two Xixx/Xirr, and two Xaar. Light version is 2 Xill, two Xixx/Xirr, two Xeel, Vaarl, Xaar, and one empty slot that could have been spent otherwise that "upgrades a wing of Zorth to Tzymm".

Not unbeatable --- but nasty.

Unbeatable? Try 10 old Xeel. Holy cripes, Mary Mother of God, will this clear the board of opposition. Only if you fight the pak'ma'ra, Gaim, or a Dag'Kar wielding Narn fleet will you lose to this. The fighterstrike firepower is AWESOME. The Dilgar have no chance unless they took a huge horde of Garasoch (and even that might not work unless you truly take mostly CVs!); the Brakiri get to just die pathetically, Brokados or not. Minbari can just go home; even with Web of Death, they have zero shot. Drakh are done before they hit the table. White Stars melt in fear of the fighterstrike. Very few fleets are truly unbeatable, but this fleet should run with a win percentage in the low to mid 90's. It's truly horrid, and why that ship is getting a fix.
-------------------
Unless the opponent has fighters, then the Tzymm does not fair too
well. Try 3 Hyperions, 1 Avenger, 2 Badger Starfury flights, and 2
Thunderbolt flights. It should be an interesting fight.
If you want disgusting, bring in Chronos



"Early EA is the only fleet the has more that 30 percent of its classes
at hull 4 7 of its 20 classes":
Vree: Ximm, Xorr, Xeel, Xirr, Xixx, Vaarka, Varrl :58.3% of fleet selection.
Drakh: Ria'stor, Kama're, Ma'cu, Amu, Ria'stor Gris, Sa'riastor: 60% of fleet selection -- even more than the Vree
-----------------
Didn't look at Crusade as that is a totally lopsided battle, Vree have
little to no chance in the Crusade era, since they have no new ships.
GEG count for a lot of hull during the game! So not a valid comparison
if one looks beyond hull alone. With the execption of raid level the
Drakh have larger hulls and GEG, much more survivable during the
game.



We're in the same boat, here. I fully understand about Hull 4, but note the fleet selections above -- the only direct combatants in the fleet design above that ever close to closer range than 15 all have Hull 5 or better, or come with substantial Tzymm support. If you're taking lots of Xorr, then, that's your mistake. In the case of the Ximm, I dont' know what to say; it's the wrong Patrol hull to take.
-----
I find that the Xorr is one of the best, as it can CBD and still fire,
only the Xixx can do the same, but has such limited firepower
that is nearly useless. I mostly deal with EA Crusade, ISA,
Narn(45" E-mine), and Minbari, I normally win the fighter combat
but the Tzymm is lost to the normal ship weapons.



You repair criticals under All Hands on Deck on a 2 or better (pretty sick!). If you lose an arc, half the time, it's repairable in one turn.

Why in Kosh's name are you exposing your scout to Emines? On the standard 4x6 table, there is an average of 4 terrain pieces. With 36" scouting range and SM, why aren't you behind some terrain piece, under CBD, and untargetable, Emine ability or not? Very confused.
-------
Because the Narn have a 45" E-mine, that kills with one shot.
Untargetable/stealth means nothing to an E-Mine.
If I am behind a dust cloud I can do nothing, as I have no line of
sight. The 'scout' ability requires you to 'target' the ship you wish
to scout.

 

[Da Boss]

Bit difficult to read all that - but Scout does not require line of sight - it merely requires it to be within 36"

this may help a little!

 

[JTL109]

Stealth should definitely work against the abduction beam.
...
Stealth, Dodge, CBD, and GEG should all apply.[/quote
----------
I will agree with all save, CBD. That would simply make no
logical sense.

Midshipman Smyth Says "Ensign, a little grey guy with big eyes is asking to come in, shall I let him?"
Ensign Jones Replies "NO! We are in battle with them, (how did they
get on board anyway? ) Tell them to go away, we don't want any!
Disappointed, the little grey man leaves.

It makes even less sense if the abduction beam is a transporter effect.

 

[JTL109]

The problem with the new Vree carrier is the lack of short/medium range weapons, this is completely out of character for the Vree. As a Crusade era ship I find it totally lacking, a poor design that
has little chance of success. Take the 25" guns and make 2
banks of 6 with a secondary of 15" with 10 guns, and a third
bank of 10" with 10 guns. At this point you have a war level
ship that still cannot defeat a war level ship, but it is closer.

So you want to give it almost as many guns as the Z'Takk (more of the long range guns, but less of the shorter range) as well as 20 flights of the best fighters in the game.

Nice.

----------
I actually forgot to adjust the fighters because I was in a hurry.
Fighters should go to six and six, because that would be four
squadrons of three(not 6 squadrons and fractions).

 

[JTL109]

Bit difficult to read all that - but Scout does not require line of sight - it merely requires it to be within 36"

this may help a little!

----------
I can see how you get to this conclusion, that section is poorly worded.
My position:
Please see page 19, third paragraph, where it specifically uses the
word 'target'. It is rather strange to claim that you are using your
sensor arrays on a ship that you are NOT targetting to gain the
benefit of the scout trait.

 

[katadder]

The problem with the new Vree carrier is the lack of short/medium range weapons, this is completely out of character for the Vree. As a Crusade era ship I find it totally lacking, a poor design that
has little chance of success. Take the 25" guns and make 2
banks of 6 with a secondary of 15" with 10 guns, and a third
bank of 10" with 10 guns. At this point you have a war level
ship that still cannot defeat a war level ship, but it is closer.

So you want to give it almost as many guns as the Z'Takk (more of the long range guns, but less of the shorter range) as well as 20 flights of the best fighters in the game.

Nice.

----------
I actually forgot to adjust the fighters because I was in a hurry.
Fighters should go to six and six, because that would be four
squadrons of three(not 6 squadrons and fractions).

how do you work squadrons? currently it has 5 squadrons of each fighter type (12 fighters per squadron) which is fine with its weapons.

as an aside heres my original design for it:

Z’Trikk-class Heavy Carrier (Z’Takk variant) War
Noting other races high use of fighters the vree decided they needed a heavy carrier of their own and thus the Z’Trikk was born. Able to carry whole wings of vree fighters and also contribute to the battle from afar with its antimatter torpedos the Z’Trikk has been nicknamed the basestar by Earth Force personnel after its resemblance to something in an early 21st century TV show.

Speed: 8 Damage: 80/14 Craft: 10 Tzymm flights, 10 Zorth Flights
Turn: 1/90 Crew: 112/18 Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 10, Carrier 6,
Command +3, Fleet Carrier,
Jump Engine
Hull: 6 Troops: 3 In Service: 2272+

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Antimatter Torpedo 25 T 8 Precise, Slow-Loading, Super AP, Triple Damage
Antimatter Torpedo 25 T 8 Precise, Slow-Loading, Super AP, Triple Damage

its designed as a support ship having long range weapons only and just short of 7 fighter wings (6.66 which is quite amusing but actually not intended). the posiedon whilst not having the firepower has 6 wings of fighters and more defences plus some meaty broadsides.
I am not sure the current version available for playtest would beat a posiedon but it could be interesting. probably due to not being lumbering etc it could get itself out of range.

 

[JTL109]

Z’Trikk-class Heavy Carrier (Z’Takk variant) War[/b]
Noting other races high use of fighters the vree decided they needed a heavy carrier of their own and thus the Z’Trikk was born. Able to carry whole wings of vree fighters and also contribute to the battle from afar with its antimatter torpedos the Z’Trikk has been nicknamed the basestar by Earth Force personnel after its resemblance to something in an early 21st century TV show.

Speed: 8 Damage: 80/14 Craft: 10 Tzymm flights, 10 Zorth Flights
Turn: 1/90 Crew: 112/18 Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 10, Carrier 6,
Command +3, Fleet Carrier,
Jump Engine
Hull: 6 Troops: 3 In Service: 2272+

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Antimatter Torpedo 25 T 8 Precise, Slow-Loading, Super AP, Triple Damage
Antimatter Torpedo 25 T 8 Precise, Slow-Loading, Super AP, Triple Damage
-----------
Comments in favor:
1) This ship is closer the the true concept of a carrier than most of the
other carriers in the game. Using the fighters as the long range weapon
of the carrier.
2) Two torpedo turrets is perfect as you can always
maintan a level of fire against enemy ships.
3) Command +3 is very needed.

Comments not in favor:
1) The ship is too slow to outrun (almost) anything and has too few
weapons to outfight even a lower PL ship.
2) The Tzymm is good at its job, but cannot really survive for any
time unless you are completely in control of the local space.
The Zorth is a fine fighter, fleet carrier makes it better(almost top
of the line at +4), but you will seldom get 'init' and this hurts
as you will fire second most of the time.
3) The ship is a complete departure from the prior designs,
without 2nd or 3rd level weapons it does not look/feel correct.



its designed as a support ship having long range weapons only and just short of 7 fighter wings (6.66 which is quite amusing but actually not intended). the posiedon whilst not having the firepower has 6 wings of fighters and more defences plus some meaty broadsides.
I am not sure the current version available for playtest would beat a posiedon but it could be interesting. probably due to not being lumbering etc it could get itself out of range.

----------
The Posidons 24 fighters would defeat your 20 and you would be forced
to use missiles to defend the ship against the fighters. As to who would win, it depends on how much damage the fighters do to your ship to
cause a withdrawl or how soon the fighters are destroyed. Your Vree
carrier cannot effectively hurt the Posidon because it has too few
weapons.

 

[Greg Smith]

The Posidons 24 fighters would defeat your 20 and you would be forced
to use missiles to defend the ship against the fighters. As to who would win, it depends on how much damage the fighters do to your ship to
cause a withdrawl or how soon the fighters are destroyed. Your Vree
carrier cannot effectively hurt the Posidon because it has too few
weapons.

What makes you think the EA fighters would win against superior dogfighters?

16AD of SAP precise TD isn't enough to seriously damage the Poseidon? That's unough to do it serious hurt, and with enough range to stay far enough away to not fear reprisal.

 

[katadder]

aah but you had it modified down to 12 AD of missiles every other turn.
and the reason the 24 fighters will beat the 20 is that the 20 only have 10 dogfighters one better than starfurys and again it the z'trikk got lowered by lowering command down to +1 so therefore the EA at crusade has +5 init against +1 allowing EA to choose their dogfights and therefore outnumber the superior fighters by enough to make the EA superior.

 

[Da Boss]

Bit difficult to read all that - but Scout does not require line of sight - it merely requires it to be within 36"

this may help a little!

----------
I can see how you get to this conclusion, that section is poorly worded.
My position:
Please see page 19, third paragraph, where it specifically uses the
word 'target'. It is rather strange to claim that you are using your
sensor arrays on a ship that you are NOT targetting to gain the
benefit of the scout trait.

Well you can already do that to lower its stealth which def does not mention target or indeed LOS - simply says "if within". Also as I read that sentance it says ships attacking the enemy target - not locking on.

Agreed the wording is imprecise but thats what we play - I guess we need a official ruling - Greg, Katadder, Triggy?

 

[JTL109]

Bit difficult to read all that - but Scout does not require line of sight - it merely requires it to be within 36"

this may help a little!

----------
...(EXCLUDED MY COMMENTS)...

Well you can already do that to lower its stealth which def does not mention target or indeed LOS - simply says "if within". Also as I read that sentance it says ships attacking the enemy target - not locking on.

Agreed the wording is imprecise but thats what we play - I guess we need a official ruling - Greg, Katadder, Triggy?

----------
Later in the 'scout' (3rd para.) the word 'alternativly' is used to provide
an option to 'redirect' fire from other ships (Twin-Link). The problem
here is that you must be able to see the target to be able to 'redirect'
the fire of the third ship. It would make no sense to say that one
does not need a LOS to the target to be able to redirect fire to the same
target. If the scout does not need a LOS and is able to 'redirect'
fire from a third party then the third party does not need
a LOS either, as the scout is 'redirecting' the third party fire.
Not needing a LOS is a very bad concept, if accepted, the E-mines
will be able to shoot through dust clouds and asteroids because they
do not need to target anything. Nowhere in the E-mine writeup
is there a requirement for LOS.
We play that E-mines must see the target location to be able to fire
at that location.

 

[JTL109]

...DELETED MY COMMENTS...
16AD of SAP precise TD isn't enough to seriously damage the Poseidon? That's unough to do it serious hurt, and with enough range to stay far enough away to not fear reprisal.

----------
The remaining EA fighters will deliver between 6 to 10 dice of AP/P/DD
to your carrier each turn, only half of your(every other turn) attack
will hit, facing 6 dice of interceptors, this is about 9 points every other
turn. So, about 20 turns to kill the Poseidon. you get to take between
120 to 200 dice of AP/DD/P, this should provide a minimum of 80 hits
and 14 crits. The EA should 'win' this fight mostly because you cannot
do anything about the fighters once the fighter combat is over.

 

[katadder]

where do you get precise double damage hits from EA fighters? i bet most EA players wished this was the case.

 

[Greg Smith]

Firebolts? A Poseidon full of Firebolt would win, but then it is 2 war points vs 1.

If the EA uses all Auroras, it would probably win the fighter war, but be unable to significantly damage the Vree carrier before they were destroyed by AF. If the Poseidon brings half T/Bolts, the Vree will probably win the fighter war.

 

[stryve]

The remaining EA fighters will deliver between 6 to 10 dice of AP/P/DD
to your carrier each turn, only half of your(every other turn) attack
will hit, facing 6 dice of interceptors, this is about 9 points every other
turn. So, about 20 turns to kill the Poseidon

So only 3 out of 12 or 16 AD (whichever the Z'Trik has at this point) are getting through? And you seem to be ignoring criticals on this side; Antimatter Torpedos are Triple Damage Precise, after all.

As to the fighter battle, I suppose that depends a little on whether or not the Z'Trik is a Fleet Carrier or not. I'm not quite clear on that, but if it is, the Vree fighters ought to hold their own pretty well. Even if it isn't, they should be able to fight a delaying action for a few turns, at the least.

 

[katadder]

Firebolts? A Poseidon full of Firebolt would win, but then it is 2 war points vs 1.

If the EA uses all Auroras, it would probably win the fighter war, but be unable to significantly damage the Vree carrier before they were destroyed by AF. If the Poseidon brings half T/Bolts, the Vree will probably win the fighter war.

dunno half and half means the auroars still outnumber the dogfighters and can have t-bolt support. due to the 4 differance in init the fighter war should go in the EAs favour then the t-bolts can just sit around hitting the z'trikk.